Barnsley...

[JF 694]

That’s great LDC and I for one hope it works out the way of your perfect vision. Realistically though we have to sell to buy and balance the books. There won’t be enough left after balancing the books to buy any real talent that at this level will make a difference. Pritchard and Maddison will be gone at the end of this season and any replacements will be far poorer players. We are heading back to the days of Championship strugglers

[JF 694]

Also LDC your comment on the 2 or 3 transfer windows to get it right, well they have had 1 window and in all honesty out of all the outgoings and incomings the only player who looks Championship quality is Trybul, Zimmermann can do a job. If and when we downgrade on quality again at the end of the season we are going to struggle next season imo

[Jim Smith 2,317]

Imagine how attractive we''d be to an investor if our owners stuck to their statements that they never expect to get any of their investment back!

Barnsley were bought for £20m reputedly. Imagine how much interest there would be if we were available for £4m or less.

Of course I don''t expect them to sell on the cheap and it''s entirely their prerogative not to.

As to claims that Barnsley somehow has more potential as a club and/or an area cone off it.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

Many of the fans who are dropping away are long standing fans who have seen much worse on the pitch over the years but they are disillusioned and frustrated and can see the writing in the wall under these owners.

There were Delia out chants in the bar at half time v Shef Weds. Not heard that before. The mood has started to change.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="JF"]That’s great LDC and I for one hope it works out the way of your perfect vision. Realistically though we have to sell to buy and balance the books. There won’t be enough left after balancing the books to buy any real talent that at this level will make a difference. Pritchard and Maddison will be gone at the end of this season and any replacements will be far poorer players. We are heading back to the days of Championship strugglers[/quote]It''s not a perfect vision, JF, it''s just trying to see through the problems and issues in a practical way.  If we are not promoted ths season we will obviously have to sell one or two players - but we don''t have to sell them cheap.   If Maddison and Pritchard play as well as we know they can - they will command high prices to move on......actually if they play well enough they might even inspire a challenge for the play offs this season and once there, who knows....Nothing is cast in stone - neither a heady rise up the table, nor a doom laden dive into the relegaton zone - this season is still redeemable.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

Lakey - by all accounts going forward £10k a week is going to be our wage ceiling. Those are not decent wages any more in a championship context.

Any decent players we have will be able to multiply their wages by 500% plus just by moving to most lower prem or even some upper champ teams and anyone we try and sign will have rivals offering more unless we are incredibly smart recruitment wise.

[TIL 1010 4,746]

** shakes head **

[JF 694]

LDC what have you seen that makes you think we could push for the play offs? I can see no reason to be optimistic for our immediate future and think it’s more likely we will play league 1 football again before we play PL football. That’s not doom mongering, it’s my opinion based on what’s going on, on the pitch and off the pitch.

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]Dunno what world you live in badger?

Barnsley may have more people living in the area but like I said there are many more bigger clubs to compete with 2 Sheffield clubs, Leeds, Bradford ect which most people support and everyone that lives there hasn''t a penny to rub together, have you ever been up north? You talk about it like a growing capital of wealth while Norwich is some hole of misfortune, I suggest you check your facts as Norwich is up there with the fastest growing cities in the country with lots of people commuting to London daily, my terraced house in the city would buy a mansion in Barnsley, you say their small crowds are a bonus because more fans can start to go? I''d rather have a ground full that can be expanded thanks.

But as Delia and co have no interest in selling it doesn''t matter a fuck anyway[/quote]Sorry DDD - you are muddled. The fact that Norwich is relatively affluent* works against us rather than for us in making us an attractive investment for a growth investor, as does the fact that we have larger crowds. It is already "priced in."The whole point of investing is to buy before the growth has taken place not afterwards - that''s how you gain big profits. For example, you''d have made more profit investing in Amazon in 2005 than you would now. It might still be a good investment, but you''d have missed the main period of growth. It is the growth potential that makes it a potentially exciting investment.The last available figures for Barnsley is 2014-15, when they had a turnover of under £5 million.**  Get things right on the pitch and it would be possible to see revenues grow by over 2000% with TV. If we get things right, we stand to treble or quadruple our revenue - very nice but nowhere near the same rate of growth and of course we start with a base of overheads which is several times higher. It is quite simple economics, I''m afraid.I''m not sure why you think that the good people of Barnsley are likely to be Leeds or Bradford fans -  but it does feel a little bit like you are using it to detract from the fact that the population there is much bigger than that of Norwich and with a far better transport infrastructure. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you have done very little to suggest that you know what you are talking about.

*(although I''m not sure of relative income figures without researching it, I suspect that there isn''t much difference at present. The caricature of "everyone that lives there hasn''t a penny to rub together" seems more like simple prejudice than an informed opinion.)** (http://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/cryne-put-in-2-9m-as-reds-turnover-halved-in-2014-15)

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="JF"]LDC what have you seen that makes you think we could push for the play offs? I can see no reason to be optimistic for our immediate future and think it’s more likely we will play league 1 football again before we play PL football. That’s not doom mongering, it’s my opinion based on what’s going on, on the pitch and off the pitch.[/quote]It''s football - anything can happen - and I do believe we have capable enough players. There is no reason at all why a good run could not be put together, even to the extent of the play offs.  We could do with Oliveira getting his brain cells working a bit more efficiently as there is a good striker in there, but apart from that there are encourging signs all over the pitch, particularly the last two games.  

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

Didn''t even bother reading your nonsense, if you really think anyone looking to buy a club thinks Barnsley is a more attractive prospect than Norwich you are deluded

They bought Barnsley because they are for sale, simple

[JF 694]

We’re 16th for a reason, it’s because from top to bottom we are not good enough. It would take a miraculous turn of form to make the play offs from here. The only encouraging signs I’ve seen on the pitch is that we have enough about us to avoid being dragged into a relegation scrap this season, nothing more.

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

Oakwell holds 24k when full, the same gates we get now

Explain to me badger how they are going to generate extra revenue that we wouldn''t be able to?

[JF 694]

I’m waiting for Luton to be taken over by a billionaire to be told that they are far more attractive because of location etc blah blah blah. Some fans just can’t accept the awkward truth. That our owners are blocking any potential takeover

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="JF"]That’s great LDC and I for one hope it works out the way of your perfect vision. Realistically though we have to sell to buy and balance the books. There won’t be enough left after balancing the books to buy any real talent that at this level will make a difference. Pritchard and Maddison will be gone at the end of this season and any replacements will be far poorer players. We are heading back to the days of Championship strugglers[/quote]It''s not a perfect vision, JF, it''s just trying to see through the problems and issues in a practical way.  If we are not promoted ths season we will obviously have to sell one or two players - but we don''t have to sell them cheap.   If Maddison and Pritchard play as well as we know they can - they will command high prices to move on......actually if they play well enough they might even inspire a challenge for the play offs this season and once there, who knows....Nothing is cast in stone - neither a heady rise up the table, nor a doom laden dive into the relegaton zone - this season is still redeemable. [/quote]

LDC, those players are going to be sold in Jan. They have to be, to balance the books, because we''re in a big financial mess because we p*ssed our lottery win up the wall. The CEO is no longer here, the board has changed, the managers, the players, the only constant from that period is Delia. She''s the problem, not the solution.

We cannot and will never again be able to compete at EPL or Championship level without major investment. IF she wants the best for that club, she needs to find that investment and bring it into the club, that means giving up her majority and power over the club to someone with an actual business brain and a bank balance to match.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user=" Badger"][quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]Dunno what world you live in badger?

Barnsley may have more people living in the area but like I said there are many more bigger clubs to compete with 2 Sheffield clubs, Leeds, Bradford ect which most people support and everyone that lives there hasn''t a penny to rub together, have you ever been up north? You talk about it like a growing capital of wealth while Norwich is some hole of misfortune, I suggest you check your facts as Norwich is up there with the fastest growing cities in the country with lots of people commuting to London daily, my terraced house in the city would buy a mansion in Barnsley, you say their small crowds are a bonus because more fans can start to go? I''d rather have a ground full that can be expanded thanks.

But as Delia and co have no interest in selling it doesn''t matter a fuck anyway[/quote]Sorry DDD - you are muddled. The fact that Norwich is relatively affluent* works against us rather than for us in making us an attractive investment for a growth investor, as does the fact that we have larger crowds. It is already "priced in."The whole point of investing is to buy before the growth has taken place not afterwards - that''s how you gain big profits. For example, you''d have made more profit investing in Amazon in 2005 than you would now. It might still be a good investment, but you''d have missed the main period of growth. It is the growth potential that makes it a potentially exciting investment.The last available figures for Barnsley is 2014-15, when they had a turnover of under £5 million.**  Get things right on the pitch and it would be possible to see revenues grow by over 2000% with TV. If we get things right, we stand to treble or quadruple our revenue - very nice but nowhere near the same rate of growth and of course we start with a base of overheads which is several times higher. It is quite simple economics, I''m afraid.I''m not sure why you think that the good people of Barnsley are likely to be Leeds or Bradford fans -  but it does feel a little bit like you are using it to detract from the fact that the population there is much bigger than that of Norwich and with a far better transport infrastructure. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you have done very little to suggest that you know what you are talking about.

*(although I''m not sure of relative income figures without researching it, I suspect that there isn''t much difference at present. The caricature of "everyone that lives there hasn''t a penny to rub together" seems more like simple prejudice than an informed opinion.)** (http://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/cryne-put-in-2-9m-as-reds-turnover-halved-in-2014-15)[/quote]

Larger crowds would of course only be “priced in” if our owners were looking to sell at full market value (and thus make a tidy little profit into the bargain).

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]Oakwell holds 24k when full, the same gates we get now

Explain to me badger how they are going to generate extra revenue that we wouldn''t be able to?[/quote]Sorry DDD, I don''t think that you are able (or willing) to understand. I have explained it is about revenue growth but you seem unable or unwilling to try to comprehend. One last go - we already get crowds of 20,000+ it''s "priced in." The very fact that we have crowds of 24,000+ means that our capacity for growth is lower. Commercially, it is attractive to buy an asset that you feel has the potential to relatively easily be exploited more fully. In football terms, buying a youngster with potential rather than paying top whack for a 30+ year old near too the way down - think Madison vs Naismith+ Our commercial operation is also almost certainly more developed as well - there are fewer "easy wins" with City + there is the issue of potential extra (above trend) economic growth in the area.

[Badger 2,405]

Jim Smith - "Larger crowds would of course only be “priced in” if our owners were

looking to sell at full market value (and thus make a tidy little profit

into the bargain)"This is true. They might possibly sell for below market value if they thought that they were selling to someone with the best interests of the club at heart - I doubt it though. I think that they have declared their hand, they think that in the absence of Father Christmas a Trust is the safest way, but I have no idea whatsoever if they are likely to change their mind - my best guess is no better than anybody else''s - they could get so fed up with things that they sell out for a profit. Certainly that would be the easy thing to do. (I don''t remember how much they actually paid tbh, but imagine that they could make a pretty good profit, even on the balance sheet value.)

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

No it''s you that doesn''t get it, business isn''t about growth it''s about how much money you can make pure and simple

If I have a pound and make 9 pounds I have ten times as much as I had before (good growth)

But if I have 10 pounds but only manage to double it (rubbish growth) I''ll still have made more money

The fact that our ground holds more and we have double the amount of season ticket holders as Barnsley already means we have more money coming in, add this to the fact we are far closer to getting to the premier league and the real big bucks we are a much more exciting proposition

You do realise if Barnsley are to get promoted to the premier league they will have to spend millions on players and wages, that''s just how it is. They are not going to be able to do it without millions of pounds invested (losing money) while only having income from 12k gates, even if Barnsley magically pull an extra 12k fans from somewhere that''s still 3k less than we have.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user=" Badger"]Jim Smith - "Larger crowds would of course only be “priced in” if our owners were

looking to sell at full market value (and thus make a tidy little profit

into the bargain)"This is true. They might possibly sell for below market value if they thought that they were selling to someone with the best interests of the club at heart - I doubt it though. I think that they have declared their hand, they think that in the absence of Father Christmas a Trust is the safest way, but I have no idea whatsoever if they are likely to change their mind - my best guess is no better than anybody else''s - they could get so fed up with things that they sell out for a profit. Certainly that would be the easy thing to do. (I don''t remember how much they actually paid tbh, but imagine that they could make a pretty good profit, even on the balance sheet value.)[/quote]

They have quite frequently in the past stated they don’t expect to make any money or indeed I think Delia said they would hand the club over for nothing to the right buyer.

as I’ve said above it’s absolutely their right to sell for whatever they like (or not sell at all as the case may be) but for example if they simply sought to recover what they have put in then it would make an enourjiys difference (at present anyway) to the cost of buying the club and at that price I think we would be very good value.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]No it''s you that doesn''t get it, business isn''t about growth it''s about how much money you can make pure and simple

If I have a pound and make 9 pounds I have ten times as much as I had before (good growth)

But if I have 10 pounds but only manage to double it (rubbish growth) I''ll still have made more money

The fact that our ground holds more and we have double the amount of season ticket holders as Barnsley already means we have more money coming in, add this to the fact we are far closer to getting to the premier league and the real big bucks we are a much more exciting proposition

You do realise if Barnsley are to get promoted to the premier league they will have to spend millions on players and wages, that''s just how it is. They are not going to be able to do it without millions of pounds invested (losing money) while only having income from 12k gates, even if Barnsley magically pull an extra 12k fans from somewhere that''s still 3k less than we have.[/quote]

Growing a business is about realising potential. Barnsley have the potential to grow rapidly from within it''s catchement area within the framework they already have. We do not, we are already working at a high percentage of crowd size related to the size of the stadium. Also, I don''t know how you think we are far closer to the premier league than they are. The championship is full of teams who could put a run together to get promoted, including them.  The championship is a hugely competitive league and Barnsley under Heckinbottom have been good value. Ultimately, the size of Barnsley''s crowd is irrelevant in the bigger scheme of finances, TV money and investment - a larger crowd will be a by-product of any success they have, but it won''t mean much in terms of overall improved finances.

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]No it''s you that doesn''t get it, business isn''t about growth it''s about how much money you can make pure and simple

If I have a pound and make 9 pounds I have ten times as much as I had before (good growth)

But if I have 10 pounds but only manage to double it (rubbish growth) I''ll still have made more money [/quote]OK DDD but using your figures I would make two points:1. Your example demonstrates that it is possible to make more money from buying a more expensive asset, but you fail to point out that it requires ten times the initial investment to make just a pound more - your figures.2. When measuring the success of an investment, economists use something called return on capital employed (ROCE). In the first case you cite (which as you point out makes less money) the ROCE is 900%. In the second case the ROCE is 100%.Therefore, the second investment, which I suppose represents Norwich costs, using your figures, ten times more, returns capital at only a ninth of the rate. Which investment would you prefer?

[Badger 2,405]

You might be right Jim, but despite previous pronouncements, I think it is optimistic to think that the owners would forgo a potential profit running into 8 figures, especially if "forced" to reject their preferred outcome - a self-sustaining football club, without money being taken out of the club by investors.Clearly the best outcome for the club would be the "Father Christmas scenario," where a benefactor pumps in millions (tens of millions) without expecting anything in return. Whilst hope springs eternal, my best guess is that this is unlikely.Given this it is a choice between a self-sustaining club, where all monies are used to the benefit of the club or an investment model, where investors put money into the club with the ultimate aim of taking far more out.

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

If either of you twats think an investor would choose Barnsley over Norwich city if both clubs were up for sale at the same price you haven''t got a clue about business or what you''re talking about

Simple as that

[Jim Smith 2,317]

Would be rather hypoctical of them though Badger if they insisted on receiving full price and it effectively deterred any buyers which is what i suspect would happen, given their very public declarations on the subject and indeed I suppose also the fact that their declared preferred route also sees them forego a cash return which fits with those earlier pronouncements they have made. You are essentially suggesting that if forced to abandon that strategy they would have a hissy fit and look to make as much money as possible from any sale?

The Father Christmas scenario is never, ever going to happen which makes comments like Balls'' at the recent agm academic.

I don;t have a problem with investors looking for a return on their investment provided that its mutually beneficial. I agree its a tough balance to strike but perhaps the slightly colder, harder apoproach to things that comes from investors having cash/returns on the line is what we need to a degree.

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

LDC you''ve gone from page 1 of this thread saying Barnsley can stick the billionaires we''ve got a much better squad to page 9 they have as much chance of getting promoted as us with their current squad, what a fucking clown you really are

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]If either of you ** think an investor would choose Barnsley over Norwich city if both clubs were up for sale at the same price you haven''t got a clue about business or what you''re talking about

Simple as that[/quote]Whilst you assert this strongly, you have provided no evidence to substantiate it. I am sure that there might be a case to be made, but you are not making it.  The

evidence that you previously offered (above) seems to demonstrate the opposite -

Norwich would be a more expensive purchase and would return at a much slower rate. I agree with the point that you made here, even if you did not fully understand the significance of the figures that you gave.

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

I don''t need to it doesn''t take a genius

[hogesar 9,672]

[quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]LDC you''ve gone from page 1 of this thread saying Barnsley can stick the billionaires we''ve got a much better squad to page 9 they have as much chance of getting promoted as us with their current squad, what a fucking clown you really are[/quote]

This made me laugh.

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

And badger you''ve provided no evidence Barnsley are going to magically appear these extra fans that you think are hiding in the wings, end of story