Barnsley...

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

If the club is making money it is doing well simple as that, we are losing money and on a road to league 1, let''s drag this thread up in a few years and see who looks stupid

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]If the club is making money it is doing well simple as that, we are losing money and on a road to league 1, let''s drag this thread up in a few years and see who looks stupid[/quote]But this ignores the issue DDD. The link that you provided gives a clear indication as to the economic rationale behind the purchase of Barnsley. Local economic growth because of "pump-priming" stimulating a sharp increase in demand in the area.Without a similar rationale in Norfolk, the investment is unlikely to be available. I am open-minded - if anyone could point to something which adds the same potential to capital growth as this does, I could change my mind. However, on this and similar threads so far, all I have seen is wishful thinking. Understandable as this is on our part (ie as fans), wishful thinking is usually a very poor basis for investment decisions!

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

Try the fact we have a massive catchment area with only the scum as the only real other major team in such a large area, Barnsley have tons of other big clubs to compete with, that simple enough for you?

[Rogue Baboon 0]

Still not seeing the issue Badger.

HS2 doesn''t have any stations near Barnsley, and it would be amazing if it actually went ahead.

Multi million pound retail scheme? Norwich has had similar in the not too distant past.

A drive to boost tourism? This is Barnsley.

Do you honestly think a potential investor would say no to Norwich based on those things?

Of course investors look at other things, like it or not football is a business. How do investors get so rich in the first place?

Maybe its because Barnsley was actively up for sale, and Norwich isn''t. Barnsleys owners (sadly) wanted to sell - but the family still owns 20% of the club anyway, so they haven''t been cut out completely

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

The Barnsley investors want to use the club as a feeder team for Nice - they have targeted the French League as the easiest of getting Champions League football and the vast sums that generates.

Like Man City, they want to have several feeder clubs in different countries where they can loan out young players and experiment with analytics stuff. As well as develop players, move them to Nice for cheap and then sell at a big profit, to help with their own FFP - which is what Man City did with Mooy.

Barnsley could get lucky and do what happened at Watford, where the feeder club went on to become the largest team in a grouping of clubs - I''m sure the new owners would love to get into the Prem and reap the rewards from that - but it doesn''t seem that is their immediate priority.

[JF 694]

Our long term self sustaining model and plans to hand the club down to Nephew Tom will see us as an established league 1 side. If we want to compete at this level and have any chance of a PL return then we are going to have to get on board the money train or get left behind. Our owners need to wake up and face the facts, the game at this level has moved far beyond a local builder or a chef owing a club. Their level of wealth is now more accustomed to ownership of a club at Kings Lynn’s level. If they truly cared for the club they should be actively looking for owners who has the finances and ideas to take the club on. Their idea of handing it over to Tom is an insult to the club and fan base and it will backfire on them and him

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="JF"]Our long term self sustaining model and plans to hand the club down to Nephew Tom will see us as an established league 1 side. If we want to compete at this level and have any chance of a PL return then we are going to have to get on board the money train or get left behind. Our owners need to wake up and face the facts, the game at this level has moved far beyond a local builder or a chef owing a club. Their level of wealth is now more accustomed to ownership of a club at Kings Lynn’s level. If they truly cared for the club they should be actively looking for owners who has the finances and ideas to take the club on. Their idea of handing it over to Tom is an insult to the club and fan base and it will backfire on them and him[/quote]

 ?? There is no insult.  Handing on of family assets to family members is quite normal - and there has been mention of a trust to protect the club''s interests as well.  As for being an established League 1 side, that is pure doom mongering. 

[JF 694]

Doom mongering!? You’re right, it’s not as if they have taken us there before, is it? Your talk of taking 2 or 3 transfer windows to get the squad right on another thread is pure head in the sand. I can’t imagine what the squad will look like in 2 or 3 transfer windows, but after all the talent has been sold off to balance the books and cheap replacements on low salaries bought in then I think it’s a fair assumption that we we will competing at the wrong end of the championship. We have turned full circle and are heading back to the pre Lambert days, that resulted in league 1 football and the very real threat of selling the stadium. This time there may not be a Lambert, Holt,Hoolahan etc to bring us back

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]Try the fact we have a massive catchment area with only the scum as the only real other major team in such a large area, Barnsley have tons of other big clubs to compete with, that simple enough for you?[/quote]I can understand your frustration DDD, but the issue isn''t as simple as you would like - the real world is a lot more complicated. In essence it is an issue of potential for growth.

• The metropolitan borough of Barnsley is a much bigger than Norwich.Greater potential as a bigger market.
• It has much smaller crowds - it has been far less successful in marketing the club. Much greater to potential to increase crowds
• It is an area receiving massive capital investment in an attempt to create a "Northern powerhouse" - which is likely to have an accelerator effect on investment. Potential for area growth is greater + less likely to have been "priced in" to the clubs price
• Barnsley will be cheaper to buy than Norwich
• Expectation levels of the crowd are likely to be lower and core customers are likely to be more patient. In contrast, as has been pointed out by many in here, there is a danger that our fans will be far less patient and that gates could fall sharply.
• The area, already benefits from many of the things as RB pointed out - these will have already been "priced in." The potential return on investment is lower.
• Communications are far poorer in Norfolk - it''s image is seen as "a backwater" etc

I''m afraid that we will be a far better investment in a few year''s time if we fail to gain promotion and crowds and turnover dwindle[:(]. You might not chose to recognise it or abuse those that put this view forwards but the economics are pretty clear - if you want rapid growth, start from a low base with unexploited potential.

[JF 694]

You missed the real reason Badger. Barnsley were actively looking for new owners, where as our door is firmly slammed shut.

[Donkey dangler 0]

Badger stated:

You might not chose to recognise it or abuse those that put this view forwards but the economics are pretty clear - if you want rapid growth, start from a low base with unexploited potential.

--> Good point.

[JF 694]

This consortium were previously linked with Middlesbrough, Hull and Brentford before Barnsley actively looked for new owners. I’m sure if we try hard enough we can convince ourselves why all of these clubs are better options than us, instead of accepting the uncomfortable truth...

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="Rogue Baboon"]Still not seeing the issue Badger.

HS2 doesn''t have any stations near Barnsley, and it would be amazing if it actually went ahead.

I''d be surprised if it (HS2) didn''t go ahead. The fact that it doesn''t have any stations is not strictly relevant - the idea is to boost the region - "Northern powerhouse" but of course it would be better if there were a local station.Multi million pound retail scheme? Norwich has had similar in the not too distant past.Yes, we''ve had the investment and are enjoying the benefit - it''s already priced in rather than potential for the future. A drive to boost tourism? This is Barnsley.

I''ve only ever been to Barnsley for football and never stayed overnight tbh, but had a great holiday in Bradford a few years ago!

Do you honestly think a potential investor would say no to Norwich based on those things?

Of course investors look at other things, like it or not football is a business. How do investors get so rich in the first place?

By spotting opportunities - buying low and selling high. Because of the benefits that we have previously enjoyed, as you have partially identified, we are past the "potential" stage of economic growth + relatively more expensive.Maybe its because Barnsley was actively up for sale, and Norwich isn''t. No doubt that this will have made a difference - someone looking for a quick sale is normally an attractive proposition to a buyer.Barnsleys owners (sadly) wanted to sell - but the family still owns 20% of the club anyway, so they haven''t been cut out completely[/quote]

[norfolkngood 1,087]

also with this trust thing just say Tom takes over

he runs the club for a year and then get approached by a Foreign investor Tom is keen to sell as he does not have the funds but the Delia''s hand picked Trust do not want to sell to the Foreign investor as that would go against Delia''s wishes where would that leave us then ?

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="JF"]You missed the real reason Badger. Barnsley were actively looking for new owners, where as our door is firmly slammed shut.[/quote]As I replied to RB, the fact that the Barnsley owners were looking for a quick sale undoubtedly would have made it more attractive - keen sellers don''t drive a hard bargain!

[king canary 7,605]

"Handing on of family assets to family members is quite normal"

Excuse me if I think of the football club as more than a Smith family asset.

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="king canary"]"Handing on of family assets to family members is quite normal"

Excuse me if I think of the football club as more than a Smith family asset.[/quote]But it isn''t - that really is the crux of the issue. It is an asset of the person who owns the shares, however much we as fans don''t like it.This really is the whole point of the issue. Once you have accepted this, the next question to consider is whether you wish for this asset to be owned by someone who cares for the club or someone who sees it as merely a financial asset to be exploited in any way that maximises return. It might influence you view on matters.

[JF 694]

king canary wrote the following post at 21/12/2017 1:43 PM:

"Handing on of family assets to family members is quite normal"

Excuse me if I think of the football club as more than a Smith family asset.

Norwich City FC, a family owned business established for over 20 years

[king canary 7,605]

@Badger

Ok.

But if it isn''t treated as more than an asset of the Smith family then don''t be surprised if people question whether they want to give them £500 a year to help fund their asset.

It is a dangerous slope when you start to treat football clubs as just the same as any other business- if the owners treat it as such then fans will to.

[Badger 2,405]

[quote user="king canary"]@Badger

Ok.

But if it isn''t treated as more than an asset of the Smith family then don''t be surprised if people question whether they want to give them £500 a year to help fund their asset.

It is a dangerous slope when you start to treat football clubs as just the same as any other business- if the owners treat it as such then fans will to.[/quote]In fairness to the owners, I don''t think that they have tried to treat the club like any other asset. This is sort of my point - they are fans not investors. Others would treat it like any other asset - that''s what worries me.Re some fans not coming any more, personally I would welcome it if the less committed fans that are only happy watching us when we are successful did not turn up. Supporting Norwich is always likely to be an up and down experience - it''s not really something for the fickle. The way I look at it, the bad times make the good ones even sweeter!(BTW, I do not include you or any other specific poster in that category - I have no idea how long you/ they have followed the club - but if it has been for a long while they are more likely to be used to it [:(] )

[Rogue Baboon 0]

‘This really is the whole point of the issue. Once you have accepted this, the next question to consider is whether you wish for this asset to be owned by someone who cares for the club or someone who sees it as merely a financial asset’

Am I the only person that thinks the way we are going it is seen as a financial asset by the current board?

‘Who cares for the club’ - is that somebody who wants the club to be at its maximum level? Because I don’t believe the current board see it like that. It’s such an ambiguous statement that can be argued both ways

[Mello Yello 2,291]

Barnsley is a tourist ''Hot Spot'' it''s got everything that''ll attract visitors an'' stuff.....Whereas Norwich, is just an old pit town that has poverty and decay......

[king canary 7,605]

Ah a true purist- rather have 15,000 fans who support in the correct way than a full ground.

I kid.

But I don''t feel fans dropping away at this point is about not being able to take the ups with the downs. I''d imagine a fair amount of the people who don''t plan to renew were here in the Roeder and League One years. Even in those days I never doubted that those in charge were doing all they could to make us as successful as possible. As of now though? I feel like we''re settling. I feel like our majority shareholders, knowing they or Tom don''t have the financial muscle to compete with most at even this level, are actively choosing for us to be noncompetitive. And if that is what they choose then fans will choose not to bother (especially when you''re charging premium ticket prices) and I don''t blame them.

I''ve said before the mood I feel from a number of fans is one of apathy which is far worse than anger.

[Mello Yello 2,291]

Maybe Barnsley just doesn''t have ''nepotism and cronyism'' in their Yorkshire vocabulary?......

[Big Vince 318]

Aliko Dangote everyone.

[TIL 1010 4,742]

[quote user="DDD In The Fine City"]If the club is making money it is doing well simple as that, we are losing money and on a road to league 1, let''s drag this thread up in a few years and see who looks stupid[/quote]It was less than 18 months ago i said the wallet was empty DDD and that we would have to sell before we could buy. I got called out for posting that at a forum as i am sure you recall and now look where we are.It gives me no pleasure i can assure you to point out i was on the right track back then. We are potless and heading in the wrong direction financially no matter how some people try and sugar coat it. Worrying times indeed.

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

Dunno what world you live in badger?

Barnsley may have more people living in the area but like I said there are many more bigger clubs to compete with 2 Sheffield clubs, Leeds, Bradford ect which most people support and everyone that lives there hasn''t a penny to rub together, have you ever been up north? You talk about it like a growing capital of wealth while Norwich is some hole of misfortune, I suggest you check your facts as Norwich is up there with the fastest growing cities in the country with lots of people commuting to London daily, my terraced house in the city would buy a mansion in Barnsley, you say their small crowds are a bonus because more fans can start to go? I''d rather have a ground full that can be expanded thanks.

But as Delia and co have no interest in selling it doesn''t matter a fuck anyway

[DDD In The Fine City 1]

Indeed hands up Tilly, I trusted that the money received for players would be invested straight back into the squad before Delia got back every penny she''d put into the club, as it turns out I was wrong and rather than use the ability of an overdraft in a better position she waited until she''s now got no choice but to use one or as it will probably be us selling all our best players to balance the books because she hasn''t got the finances to even buy an average championship players, unfortunately administration is the only way we''ll see the back of her

[TIL 1010 4,742]

DDD add to those clubs you pointed out to badger Doncaster and Rotherham who are spitting distance away.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="JF"]Doom mongering!? You’re right, it’s not as if they have taken us there before, is it? Your talk of taking 2 or 3 transfer windows to get the squad right on another thread is pure head in the sand. I can’t imagine what the squad will look like in 2 or 3 transfer windows, but after all the talent has been sold off to balance the books and cheap replacements on low salaries bought in then I think it’s a fair assumption that we we will competing at the wrong end of the championship. We have turned full circle and are heading back to the pre Lambert days, that resulted in league 1 football and the very real threat of selling the stadium. This time there may not be a Lambert, Holt,Hoolahan etc to bring us back[/quote]

Yes, it looks like doom mongering. The circumstances now are entirely different to what they were in the pre-Lambert days, where we were in deep sh*t financially. Roeder was one thing, but now we have a progressive and cohesive management/coaching set up, some very, very good players, no real debt to speak of and the ability to be self-sufficient - and still be able to offer new players decent enough wages, once the cycle of player movement has happened over the next two or three transfer windows.   You complained about the "two or three transfer window" comment, but it is like this - as we work through it, we will lose the expensive flops and those that don''t fit in to the work ethic and we will have the room for newer, younger players who understand and are able to buy in to the way the new set up works. Head in sand it is not.  It is saying how it is.  The handing on of assets to TS would be quite normal - and a trust to oversee them is quite right too.  The longer term aspects of the finances and the squad are an ongoing situation and will resolve itself.  Unless we are promoted or relegated, we will not be competing at the bottom of the championship, we will be competing in the championship as a whole.