10 Bryceland

Mystic, you either believe that PG had all the available money at his disposal or you believe that there is more money somewhere that was denied him.  PG was looking to bring in players on loan up to the very end so it would seem that money was available to him.  But if you think the board was being prudent and saving for a rainy day, and yesterday certainly was in more ways than one, then how much is available and where is it?

Isn''t it wonderful how everybody is happy to spend other peoples money, be it Delia or the Turners.  I am constantly amazed at the never ending demands made on the board to give their money to the club.  I know that we all do in terms of our season tickets, merchandise et al but as a percentage of our actual income it connot compare with the money and time put in by the board.  Very few clubs make a profit on the pitch, look at the accounts and financial staus of any of them.  We rely on the generosity of others to keep football, including NCFC, afloat.  We may be in a parlous position on and off the pitch, but it is not yet terminal.  We are now looking for a new manager, many want a new board.  What guarantees can you give me that we will be successful in the future with a new manager and a new board.  There are no guarantees.  I believe the board has supported the various managers as best they could without totally endangering the club.  I have been disappointed by the on-field efforts but that is now over.  We have a new beginning.  Let us all go forward united in our support for NCFC.

With a post like this you can''t lose.  If City lose and PG is sacked you blame the board.  What for?  They appointed the manager in good faith, and if anyone describes him as the ''cheap option'' could you back this up with some verifiable financial data, supported him as far as is realistically possible in these financially constrained times and have not criticised him openly despite a poor start to the season.  PG talked the talk at the start of his reign.  He would not play unfit players, players out of position, would give youth a chance on merit and encourage his players to play without fear.  He has backtracked on all of this in the past 12 months, possibly due to a lack of managerial experience but surely he was aware of the pressures as an assistant? If City win and PG presumably stays you can join him in a two fingered salute to the doubters. Me, I hope we win, as I do every game.  We have not consistently played well under the current managerial regime but I do not feel the time is right for change yet.  PG is still learning, a process that all good managers continually go through.  It will cost us a lot to replace him and we will rapidly become a ''hire and fire at will'' type of club.  Do you expect all managers of teams in the bottom areas of the table to be fired?  I am not happy with the situation but would urge caution at the moment.  No-one can guarantee success at any level.  

There is a difference between fact and opinion.  The facts are that we now occupy a position in the lower half of the 2nd division table and have had one season in the 1st division, one 2nd division champioship and one top six place in the second division in the last 10 years.  (IMO it is still a league with 4 divisions despite the fancy Premier League and Championship names that only serve to inflate ego''s and prices.) In the preceeding 20 years we were used to 1st division or promotion fare almost every season.  In  all of this time the club rarely made a profit and the accounts regularly showed a loss only reversed by player sales.  These are facts. Opinions are something else.  The performance and ability of board, management and players can not be quantified in the same way.  We all have our opinins, that is what makes the game so appealing.  Only the generosity of the board and other supporters has kept the club going over the years.  We might not be playing wonderful football and results are not good but we are in a better position than many clubs.  We are right to query and debate all asects of the club but must we harangue all who disagree with us?  Is anyone to blame?  How can all 92 clubs be successful at the same time?  It is time to reflect on what we have, what we could lose by constant negativity, and what we can all do to shape the future together.    

High points - clearing out the underperformers and speaking his mind passionately Low points - Stating he would not play unfit players, not play them out of position, would use young players and ask them to play withou fear.       

As I said when this was raised a few days ago, NOOOOOOOO Thanks.  A nice enough person but has dropped enough clangers elsewhere without giving him a chance to repeat them here.  We know we need a good keeper and David Marshall is our first choice.  If he is denied us then let us go for someone younger with the hunger to succeed and be proud to play for us and fight ot out with Joe Lewis in the years to come.  Tony Warner is a capable if uninspiring keeper, looking good when compared with the other custodians of last season, who would do a reasonable short term job if the price is right.  Better the devil you know.......! Anyway at the moment I have enough confidence in Peter Grant to choose wisely whilst having his first opportunity to fashion the squad of his choice.  Like him or not give the man a chance please.

No  thanks.  We have had enough ''clangers'' in the past.  And I was SERIOUSLY worried when I saw the flysheet last night that intimated that e ''Marshall wants to return to Norwich''.  I was in a complete funk until i could purchase the paper to confirm it was David and not  Andy ''boots on the wrong feet'' that wanted to return.  Could I suggest that headlines are vetted for stress content in future.

Am I missing something here?  The only players to go are those who wanted out or were not deemed good enough, who has been sold for the cash?  The board backed Worthy, and now Peter Grant, as far as funds permit.  3M on earnie, relatively large sums on Etuhu, Hughes, Croft, etc.  Aren''t all managers untried at first?  How come many who are sacked get jobs at other clubs?  Perhaps, like me, others realise that you cannot guarantee success, even with a big name manager and loads of cash, (See Leeds) but that football goes in cycles, requires loads of luck, is largely a matter of opinion and is gloriously unpredictable.  Can anyone tell me who else applied for the job alongside Grant, or who else was approached?  This would give us a more informed opinion of the choices available to the board.  Also can anyone give an estimate of the disposable assests of both the board members and the club that could be used to improve the squad.  As wiyh all fans of the club I am not happy with all that goes on at Carrow Road not would like more facts before openly ctiricising certain aspects of the current regime.  I respect all opinions posted here but would hope that some of the vitriol could be channeled into a more positive format.  As I recall the appointment of Ron Saunders did not meet universal approval and it took him time to build his own team but he eventually gave us top division football for the first time!

Although Peter Vasper has to be at the top of a very undistinguished list I also remember Geoff Barnard looking shaky on his few appearances.  With all due respect to Peter V I recall a game aginst Leicester one Boxing Day where he brought off a magnificent save, diving to his left in front of the Barclay, to prevent an equaliser and give us a1-0 victory.  So different from his usual ''falling log'' efforts.  Of the same era I recall a couple of reserve keepers, Osbourne and Palmer I think their names were, who never made the first team and gave me the jitters in the reserves.  And who can forget the comic capers of Roger Hansbury who, along with Clive Baker, stepped into the shoes of the Great Kevin Keelan without actually fitting into them.  As a journeyman keeper in the local leagues during my youth I can say with some authority that we have been entertained by some of the finest keepers ever seen along with some of the most ..... errrr ..... entertaining.  Any other memories of past custodians gladly received.  Do you remember in our first promotion to Div 1 season the 0-3 3rd round defeat to Hull City where the great KK did a whoopsie with a straightforward cross, at the River-End, and dropped it at the feet of either Wagstaff or Chilton to set us on the road to ruin? 

I too can remember the good old days, Bryan Conlon, Albert Bennett, Trevor Howard, Max Briggs et al.  Are we back in those good ole days? I don''t know but to me there is a rosy glow of nostalga for those days.  The vitriol amongst us fans certainly wasn''t there even if the passion was.  However....mistakes? Malky Mackay/Iwan Roberts, hindsight is wonderful isn''t it?  Did we ever realistically ever have a chance to keep Peter Crouch.  And would we have been betteroff with him?  Was David Bently an effective part of the team?  Did Damian Francis deserve to stay on the basis of his latter appearances?  Could we have kept Robert Green at the end of his contract?  Of the talent available was there a better option than Peter Grant?  Are you taken for granted if you are yellow through and through? All of this is a matter of opinion but is looking back.  What we need to do is look forward.  We are not yet mathmatically safe so should the team formation and personnel be experimented with, or remain the same as we hope to grind out the necessary points?  Lets see who goes and who stays.  At the end of the day cheer up.  I have always had a sneaking affection for Burnley and can appreciate what their fans are going through.  There ARE others in a worse position! 

With reference to the original post, just what do the board have to do to match the loyalty of the fans and attract the funds necessary?  By renewing my season ticket I feel I am contributing my own modest share to the club.  The clubs'' directors are only the trustees of the club and can only continue in their posts with our support.  Despite all the rhetoric there has been no credible alternative to the current regime put forward and nothing about the alleged mis-management of the club finances that stands up to close scruitiny.  We all have our own opinons about the merits of the club football management and playing staff, and long may it be so, but I would like to see verifiable facts about the financial mis-management before vilifying the current board incumbents.  And as for the constant sniping at Neil Doncaster, all I can say is that his statements seem reasonable to me and are in line with the current state of football today.  There is nothing earth shattering in his latest missive, anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see it is a reasonable point of view.  There are alternative viewpoints and policies, many of which are aired on here with great clarity and passion, but at least respect and credit other peoples opinions as you would hope they do your own.

Whoa there Sons!  A thousand apologies for implying that you did not get behind the lads.  I was trying to say that there is a bright side to look at whilst all of you sons are cheering madly.  I will in future read my post several times and try and eliminate any possibility of misunderstanding, pigeon-holing or other obvious flaws in my argument.  As I said there are things I am not happy with.  I cannot agree with the constant rhetoric concerning the ability of our squad and that we should be challenging for promotion with the current incumbents.  The table does not lie.  Whilst there are temporary blips in our form the overall trend since the day we won promotion is of poor performances and poorer results.  Character and determination count for a lot as well.  I do not accept that to play well and lose is a moral victory.  Any defeat by 2 goals or more is bad and should be looked upon as such.  But, hope springs eternal.  At the end of the day we all care deeply about our club don''t we?

Yes, offsprings of a Norfolk hero, those things are worrying but the initial thread asked us to take an overall view of the situation and not dwell on single facts.  I would rather be in our position withour board, management and squad than a lot of the teams bothin our league and others.  No-one is saying they are perfect and I do not agree with all that has been done but I believe the transparency is there alomgside the honesty.  You might not like some of the statements, especially from Neil Doncaster, but they do make sense.  The bottom line is that it takes a lot of money to run a football club, all decisions regarding the management and playing staff are gambles that have no guarantee of success, and fans opinions whilst sincerely held are seldom unanimous To counter the bad luck, Martin and Brown are looking better with each game, Huckerby is back on form, other players are gaining experience with other clubs and the coaching staff has been re-vamped.  Stay cool and get behind the lads. 

Whilst I am not about to defend the board exactly what answers to the questions posed would satisfy you?  It seems that you have already made up your mind what you want to hear and anything that deviates from your opinion is a ''load of old squit''.  From a neutral point of view the answers given would appear to be perfectly reasonable and come from the standard book of business jargon.  I am not a neutral, I am a Norwich fan but have not seen enough verifiable facts to accuse the board of mis-management, especially in relation to boards throughout the land.  At the end of the day running a football club costs a lot of money and unless any one can prove that the funds are being syphoned off we must believe that the money has been spent keeping the club going.  Part of what makes football so glorious is that each one of us has their own opinion about managing the playing staff, what they are worth, and who to buy or sell and for how much.  We might not like it but the money has largely been spent on players and agents in some shape or form .  The interesting bit is discussing the merits of it.  All the off field projects, travel shop, hotel, food etc does, or will, contribute to the club funds.  I for one applaud the board in seeking alternative funding.  I would like to see an alternative list of questions, with of course, the correct answers attached!

No, it''s not the supporters who are to blame.  As I read it the original post is about looking at ourselves and deciding if we can do something positive about the situation.  The problems on the pitch are there for all to see, any other problems are a matter of opinion and we must all make of them what we can.  Are we guilty of perpetuating and contributing to the on-field problems with our collective whinging, whining, and generally negative attitude.  No-one can be happy with the current squad or performances but how can we help things get better?  Does it help to condemn a player as soon as he signs?  Is it realistic to call for a managers head within a few weeks of appointment?  Is it motivational to boo players on and off the pitch during matches?  Do we promote the ''Delias'' little Norwich'' image by constantly harping on about it?  Me, I will be at the match tonight and will support whatever players are wearing the yellow shirts.  It is not a crisis but an opportunity for others to shine.  Give them all a chance.  Write what you like on here but lets get behind our team.  I am not blind to the problems within the club but would like to show the world the bet side of the Norfolk character. OTBC

I have my own opinions and am not decieved by ''spin'' either way but I have yet to see proof that the current board have hived off money from the club.  The accounts look ok to me and don''t have any mysterious holes in them.  I have yet to see proof that they either starved NW, and now PG, of funds or that they allowed NW, and now PG, to squander our funds on poor players.  Despite the silence from the boardroom there is no evidence that us fans are being either ignored or taken for granted.  They are fans like the rest of us and are no doubt suffering in their own way.  There is much talk about getting rid of a lot of the current staff at all levels but not many fact based opinions about replacement.  Perhaps a new investor might take us to undreamed of heights, after all in the Chase era I seem to recall Delia being touted as a saviour!  are there any football clubs that are not in a perilous financial position?  The very nature of the industry is to live on the edge at the bank managers and creditors goodwill.  Even Lowestoft Town are in trouble.  I am, however, a strong believer in cutting ones coat to suit the cloth and would not like to see our level of overdraft increased.  At the end of the day we stand or fall by the efforts of the players on the pitch.  What hard evidence is there that the board have interfered with the playing side and not left it to the professionals?  Like us, they may have their own opinions but good management practice is to present a united front.  Perhaps we could all learn from that.....    

Have to agree with this one.  Everyone connected with the club must know that (the majority of ) the fans are unhappy with the current situation.  We need to get behind the team during games and cheer them on.  At least then we cannot be accused of contributing to the current malaise.  What message does it send out to potential players when our latest signing is pilloried before he even plays?  Surely we have learnt from other cases, Iwan, Malky etc that players usually take time to settle in to a new club and we should at least give players the chance to play themselves in.  Lets not make our minds up too quickly.  After all if fans of the clubs that Robinson, Thorne, Hughes, etc will go to ask our opinions they would probably only get those who are most vociferous in their criticism rather than those, no matter how few, who appreciate their finer points. 

And what would a boycott achieve?  As most of us are season ticket holders the club will not lose money that way.  Food, drink, programmes and other sales might suffer though but what sort of impact would that have?  If the players cannot show passion in front of a full house how will this gee them up?  You want the manager out, more money spent on players and the board replaced but denying support means they have less money to do this.  Boycotts didn''t work with Chase, haven''t worked at any other club I am aware of and seem to be self destructive. If I am to support a Grant/Board Out campaign I need to know how much this will cost, names that are willing to take over and at what cost, and how they will guarantee success.  Likewise the board, names please with an indication of how much they will invest in the infrastructure, transfer fees and wages.  As for player to be bought with this investment who are they, how much will they cost, are they willing and how will they definately improve the team? Anyone can criticise and at the moment no-one can be satisfied with performances but change for change''s sake is as dangerous as inaction.  Destruction is easy but without definate plans for rebuilding is useless.  And for those asking for the board to put more of their money into the club, how much will you pledge yourselves?  I am not being negative, I want hard facts and promises, not rants! OTBC Forever

It is a sign of the times that one has to be either for or against something.  We have a ''who do we blame'' culture that has to put everything in lottle boxes.  Some of us can see both sides of the debate.  The board and management have made, and will continue to make mistakes.  It is only human to do so but we will not all agree on what those mistakes are.  The players will play according to their ability and mind-set, again we will not always agree on the merits of their ability and performance.  The supporters will hold differing opinions on all the above and more besides.  The only common thread is that we love the club and want the best for it.  There is no need for one to be labelled either a ''Board and all who sail in her outer'' or a ''KTFer''.  Can we have reasoned, articulate and amusing debate here without resorting to personal abuse and swearing?  I do not see myself in either camp but merely the holder of well thought out, reasonable opinions that would hold up in any debate.  I am happy to have anyone disagree with me provided they back up their arguments with facts, figures and honest opinion. However, when we support NCFC what is it we actually support?  Is it the name, the ground, board, players, fans etc.  And why?  Discuss......

I too am very aprehensive about the future.  PG said a lot of positive things upon his appointment.  Going for wins, not sitting on single goal leads, playing without fear, not playing people out of position, giving youth a chance, and judging all at the club on ability and performance.  To date there has been little evidence of much of this.  Given the squad he inherited some of the mixed messages are understandable and he has needed time to see what he has got to work with.  Now, however, PG must stand or fall on the players he brings in or ships out, the selections made and tactics employed.  Whatever our individual feelings surely he must be allowed this season and the coming close season to set out his stall.  The board will back him according to their financial ability.  I don''t pretend to understand the intricacies of football finance but only a fool would broadcast how much they have to spend. My main worries are the general inability of the current squad to play with passion pride and intelligence in a yellow shirt and the increasingly vitriolic and impatient clamour from some sections of our support.  Constantly debating the boards support, or lack of it, for NW gains nothing.  Until a credible alternative emerges the current board are the custodians of the club.  Like it or loath it no alternative has been suggested.  I am a season ticket holder and will remain so.  Football is a passionate game, it goes in cycles and no-one is ever guaranteed continuous success.  Brighton, Forest and Franchise FC et al were once in the First Division, look at them now.  We are not with them yet, I ferverently hope we never are but even if we were I would still be at Carrow Road.  We are transient, the Canaries aren''t.

Never mind the best, do we have any wingers at the club?  In the traditional sense a winger is a player who stays out wide and uses a combination of pace and trickery to get to the by-line and cross accurately for the onrushing strikers.  Or cut inside and score regularly like Kenny Foggo used to.  Having said that, without Dion or a fully fit 20 goals a season for Cardiff Thorne, we have no-one to capitalise on any pin-point crosses.  We cannot even cross accurately from  a dead ball situation.  At the moment despite their undoubted ability none of our wide players are doing this.  Neither are they playing like a wide midfielder should.  Not enough covering back, supporting others or dominating mid-field.  In short we have players like Hucks and Croft who are wonderful to watch when on form but are not providing a sufficiently consistent or telling contribution to the team effort.  Mind you that last statement would cover virtually the entire of PG''s available options.  But all is not lost! PG is one of the new breed of upand coming managers and I am confident that, having achieved all the required coaching qualifications, he will soon harness the undoubted ability of our existing and future players into a match-winning combination.  All I ask is we give him a chance.

Won''t Saffri be playing anyway as Robinson is suspended?  Sureley the point of this debate is that Saffri has been slightly better and a little less inconsistent than his fellow team-mates over the last two seasons.  Whilst I agree he should have been played sooner when we were in Division 1 he has not exactly covered himself in glory in our subsequent sojourn in Division 2.  His goal tally and number of assists is the equal of Etuhu, Robinson Hughes etc but does stand out more by seemingly breaking up more opposition attacks and generally being more aware of play.  That said we can only judge on what we see in matches, not on the training ground as PG does!  Would we really be worse off without him?  He is not in the first flush of youth, is injury prone and would still command some sort of fee that could be re-invested wisely

OK, so we have a team that has not lived up to the media hype, individually or collectively.  We do have an untried manager but he is what most people wanted, passionate, animated and willing to critisise players.  Give him time and a chance to bring in his own players and a chance to stamp his own authority on the squad.  Do not judge in so short a space of time.  I do not always agree with his choice of players, tactics or substitutions but at least it give us a chance to debate them.  All this is on the field.  Off the field could we stop all the innuendo and supposition.  If any one can prove mis-management or mis-appropriation of funds let them do so.  I may not be happy with the current situation but am realistic enough to know it could be a lot worse with others in charge. Kick it off, throw it in .......  

It is pleasing to know that all the players that have been suggested to bolster our clearly talented, merely only lacking in confidence and luck, squad will be available for a reasonable fee and sensible wages.  Their clubs will be only too willing to sell them to Norwich City whilst at the same time other clubs will be only to pleased to bid shedloads of money for our surplus to requirements players. And then I woke up!  We cannot change the past but we can look forward to better times ahead.  I hated the First (Premier Greed) Division.  Too many Saturdays without a fixture, mass media attention, prima donna foreign players.  At least the lower down the leagues we go the more games we will have.  earlier participation in the FA and League Cups.  Sherpa Van Trophy, Auto Windscreens Cup, etc.  We have a manager on a 3 1/2 year contract.  When Chelsea want him then Abramovitch will have to pay us millions in compensation.  More local derbys with Boston, Peterborough, possibly Kings Lynn.  Little background crowd noise to prevent our multi-talented players from listening to, and carrying out, the individually crafted I give them each week.  Locally born players given exended runs in the 1st team whilst still in their teens.  And it all starts next Saturday!!!!  

Coudn''t agree more.  We do not have unlimited resources.  Players are greedy and agents greedier.  The argumemt that players have to earn as much as possible in a short career is starting to look a bit thin when you look at the monry we shell out in wages, let alone First Division (Premier Greed) clubs.  It we let it be known we had money then the asking price and subsequent wage demands of players would rise accordingly.  No-one is syphoning off the clubs money, it has taken all we have got to get where we are now.  Without condoning the current salary/ability/attitude of the current squad the fact remains we are no different to most Second Division clubs.  We ought to be grateful for a modicum of current financial stbility which enables us to concentrate on the current (non) events on the pitch. Would you rather our financial reputation or that of the welshing Binmen down the road?