Tetteys Jig 851 Posted January 30, 2015 A lot is made of how Martin, Wes and Holty got us promoted, but to play them three, it must have taken a phenominal effort from the three in behind to allow us to maintain posession despite basically playing three strikers.Where are our Crofts, Fox and Smith when we need them? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
STAN 30 Posted January 30, 2015 Fox, Crofts/Smith and Surman/LappinFox was the man who made the diamond tick. He always made himself an outlet for the defenders, he would never get caught in possession and 9.5 times out of 10 he would pass with pin point accuracy. He could pick out any player in any part of the field.In my opinion we can''t play the diamond at the moment because we haven''t got central midfielder who can consistently spray the ball around the pitch. Johnsons not the greatest in possesion and his passing is poor. Tetteys weakest point is his passing. Howson can nock the ball about alright but again he''s not capable of playing the massive sweeping passes that fox could. Oneils the only potential candidate but at 32 is he capable of playing that role week in week out? Amongst fans Fox was the real unsung hero in that side. Most of our players even referred to him as the best passer of the ball they''ve ever played with. But of course in the eyes of Norwich fans he didn''t score GHOULS and GHOULS WIN GAMES BUH. So he wasn''t that great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Horse Renoir 1 Posted January 30, 2015 Fox was a great asset in Lambert''s system but was completely useless as a regular CM at PL level in a Hughton team. Intelligent player and great passer but he had very little else to his game, Crofts would often drop back and cover when Fox moved forward to play a ball into space because Fox was useless defensively. I think he''d be useless in this team as well tbh, he was great in Lambert''s system because Lambert assembled a brilliantly balanced, intelligent midfield so he could excel. Stick him next to Johnson now and I reckon he''d be as bad as Whittaker was last game.Great player for that time for us, but a player like that isn''t the answer for us now. We should be looking for players in the Crofts/Smith/Lappin mould that play 7/10 every week, play out of their skins and are equally adept at attacking and defending. Once players like those are solidified in our midfield we can look to introduce a Fox/Hoolahan who can make things happen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lessingham Canary 108 Posted January 30, 2015 [quote user="STAN"]Fox, Crofts/Smith and Surman/LappinFox was the man who made the diamond tick. He always made himself an outlet for the defenders, he would never get caught in possession and 9.5 times out of 10 he would pass with pin point accuracy. He could pick out any player in any part of the field.STAN I agree about Fox, but not about ONeil. at 32 he has what it takes to see through a championship season (not sure about a prem season, god forbid that should happen) he is the experienced head we need IMOIn my opinion we can''t play the diamond at the moment because we haven''t got central midfielder who can consistently spray the ball around the pitch. Johnsons not the greatest in possesion and his passing is poor. Tetteys weakest point is his passing. Howson can nock the ball about alright but again he''s not capable of playing the massive sweeping passes that fox could. Oneils the only potential candidate but at 32 is he capable of playing that role week in week out? Amongst fans Fox was the real unsung hero in that side. Most of our players even referred to him as the best passer of the ball they''ve ever played with. But of course in the eyes of Norwich fans he didn''t score GHOULS and GHOULS WIN GAMES BUH. So he wasn''t that great.[/quote] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
STAN 30 Posted January 30, 2015 I wouldn''t say Fox was "useless defensively". Yes he''s not a hard hitting tackler like Johnson but at the time his positional sense was second to none. You wouldn''t see him flying in to tackles but he was always in the right position to slow down opposition attacks and allow the likes of Crofts/Lappin to get back and defend. As for Fox being "useless as a Premiership footballer" I think many people forget he played 3/4 of our first season back in the top flight. A season in which he was voted second in our player of the season voting. Also a season in which we still managed create numerous chances despite facing so called superior opposition. Since then our midfield has always struggled to create.Hughton came in and gave him a new 2 year contract which unfortunately coincided with a long term injury. By the time he was fit again Hughton had found his preferred 11, style of the play etc and he couldnt force his way back into the side. His next appearance came in the disastrous cup exit and most fans still seem to judge him on that, despite the fact he hadn''t started a first team game in god knows how long and the whole starting 11 was shambolic.Personally I think passing is the most important attribute in a central midfielder. Yes it would be nice to have a player who can score goals, tackle, pass and dominate possesion but Frank Lampard type players don''t come cheap. Blame who you want for Hughtons shortcomings but in my opinion when you''re playing 2 central midfielders who can''t pass you''re always going to struggle to create chances, and unless you''ve got a Suarez on your books you can''t score goals with out creating chances. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tetteys Jig 851 Posted January 30, 2015 Carrick basically won Man U the title a couple of years ago. The rest of the side weren''t great.I think it''s variety that is needed.In the middle, you need a Fox type and a Johnson/ Tettey type, one mature head that''s good at passing sideways and one that likes to be more box to box and tough tackling, sometimes a bit more reckless in posession but the legs to the other guys brains.Same with your centre backs, one big unit to win the headers and one to cover his tracks so he can go into every battle 100% confident that it won''t lead to disaster if he fails in the Ariel dual or 50/50 battle.Evidence showed our failings at centre back for the second brentford goal where both wanted to be the destroyer and panicked into an unneccesary challenge.Funnily enough, the first goal for them showed our midfield failings at least for that game (which can be blamed on injury etc. a bit). Both wanted to be the maverick midfielder staying forward risking the counter attack and Whittaker duely obliged with faulting under pressure and Brentford broke away into the chasm of space left behind. It was a mistake commonly seen at my level on a Saturday or at 5-a-side in midweek and is unacceptable then but it is completely unacceptable at a high level and showed real naivety on our behalf.As people alluded to. If we''d had 2011 edition Fox in the side, he wouldn''t have allowed such a bad shape to allow the counter attack and the goal would have been avoided. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Horse Renoir 1 Posted January 30, 2015 I''d argue strongly he was useless defensively, he''d strafe and try to block the opposition while they were accelerating into our 40 year area but flattered to deceive in the respect, I suspect Hughton offered him a contract extension because he was a fan favourite and he hadn''t worked with him yet. He was dedicated to B''ham that year, all he''d have know about us was that we did extremely well and Fox was 3rd in our POTS vote.Also I said useless at PL level in a Hughton team, yes he had already proved himself capable of playing at that level in a different system. We relied on shape and discipline in Hughton''s plan whereas we relied on effort, pressing and last ditch tackles during Lambert''s reign which suited players like Fox/Crofts/Tierney but they didn''t have the tactical nous, positional sense or enough ability to read the game to defend within a set shape like Hughton wanted them to.Don''t get me wrong, I think he''s a great player, but like Wes, he can only be properly effective in a set way of playing within the diamond. It''s understandable why the club let these players go when they backed Hughton''s judgement, so I don''t feel like we should have held onto them (Although we could really use them now) But anyway, even now, at this level I don''t think he''s good enough to play as a CM in a flat midfield 4, yes he can pass, which is something most of our midfield can''t do, but I think he''d be caught out badly playing with us now. He''s a deep lying playmaker and nothing else, we don''t have the players atm to play a system with one of those so I don''t see a player like Fox as the answer now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bannana Boy 32 Posted January 30, 2015 Not going to try and quote, because this archaic forum doesn''t play nicely with modern browsers, but I wish people would stop with the whole Fox was awesome at passing, what we have now is rubbish at passing. Fox was awesome at passing, but what we have now is also pretty darned good.Alex Tettey has something approaching a 90% pass completion rate. Howson''s is around 85%. Jono brings up the rear with approx 75%.Yes, I''m aware stats don''t tell the whole story but really - we''re not short of a player who can ping a good pass about.End of rant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Horse Renoir 1 Posted January 30, 2015 Attain the rank of Lv 30 Bin Slayer and the quoting function will suddenly work. GRIND! Try to make 5 binners cry every day and you''ll reach that goal soon! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZLF 334 Posted January 30, 2015 What made it work was the balance of industry and discipline from crofts and smith to give fox the time and space to pass and to ensure his lesser defensive skills were not an issue. They were happy to be hod carriers for the team, and enjoyed a moment of glory on the back of it.The difference between the two sides is that there was ownership, teamwork and leadership, whereas this seasons replacement appear to have personal agendas not meeting the teams requirements. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellowbeagle 0 Posted January 30, 2015 One thing I think we get carried away with is this idea of possession, under Lambert I never thought of us a possession team, we were often in the 40%''s. it just we had a clear and fast idea of what we were going to do with it once we got possession back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
STAN 30 Posted January 30, 2015 Level 14 you''re right stats don''t tell the whole story, and pass completion % is one of the worst. Any footballer at this level should be cabable of passing backwards or sideways. You say Johnsons pass completion rate is 75%, so for every 10 passes he makes he misplaces 2 and half. I would guess the 2.5 is everytime he attempts to make a pass that travels more than a few yards. Now I''m only guessing but I would assume most central midfielders have a pass completion rate of 75%+. And if Tetteys is 90% and stats tell us the full story then he must be one of the best passers about? Yeah right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tetteys Jig 851 Posted January 30, 2015 Yes pass completion isn''t everything, but there is a minimum amount that should be acceptable.Positionally, Johnson was the worst in the premiership last year. That is strong enough evidence to suggest ball retention isn''t his best attribute.Don''t get me wrong, he''s a fantastic player and absolutely crucial to us but he is more a destroyer than a passer.Howson is more in the mold of passer.If Johnson had a bit more pace and could play the simple passes better, he''d still be at Arsenal. All our players are going to have weak points to their games just like every other team at our level. It''s how you organise them to hide the weaknesses and embelish the strengths that is key. That is why there are often shocking results in the cup. Do you really think Bradford are better than Chelsea? No. They did have John Stead on form on a day where Chelsea played a weak defence and that key battle was what won them that match.When fit, we have the squad to cover weakness all over the pitch, we just need to use it properly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZLF 334 Posted January 30, 2015 any professional midfielder that ever has a pass completion rate lower than a keeper should be ashamed enough to quit playing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 8,750 Posted January 31, 2015 That was the genius of Lambert too- he came in in his first season and built a system around our strengths and weaknesses. In league one we had no wide players but a great attacking midfielder in Wes, two great strikers and attacking full backs. He put Russell in to hold and nothing else and him, Lappin and Smith broke up play and got the ball to Wes/Holt/Martin. The next year he simply upgraded those three players with Fox (great passer, better than Russell), Crofts (a real worker) and Surman, For me we''ve struggled since he left to get a system that fits our players. Hughton seemed set on playing 4-4-1-1 and trying to hit on the counter despite our team having nowhere near enough pace or a target man to hold it up in that second season. Adams seemed to want to bring back the diamond but scrapped it and started forcing square pegs into round holes (Wes on the left in a 4-4-2). What I like about Alex Neil is you can see he has a way he wants to play- attacking and direct but he has to find out if he has the players to do it- I question whether Jerome will work in his system and whether we have a left winger capable of making it work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites