Jack Stacey

[Mr.Carrow 380]

On 28/04/2024 at 07:20, unique said:

Don’t be daft! Gibson scored in a meaningless FA Cup match against Liverpool when we were thrashed 5-2….

Just proves Gibson can…….(as long as you ignore all the corners in the 100+ league games where he has trodden that forlorn path).

Hanley isn’t much better.

Our scouting system needs to start coming up with defenders who can defend AND are a threat at set-pieces……NOT the polar opposite.

Adegboyega. 

[Petriix 2,853]

@chicken

Are you genuinely saying that you think Stacey makes good decisions about when and how to cross?

And you think that Sainz would do better if he hit more crosses? 

It's 2024 and football has (mostly) moved on. The number of crosses that Stacey attempts is an anomaly and, in my opinion, he should mix it up much more; I'd say he should halve the number of crosses and look at passing on the floor for the other half. 

[Google Bot 3,348]

Stacey, like a few of our players seem to play worse balls when they have more time on their hands.  When he's being pressed, or saving the ball from going out, he seems to be able to deliver better.

[chicken 2,673]

31 minutes ago, Petriix said:

@chicken

Are you genuinely saying that you think Stacey makes good decisions about when and how to cross?

And you think that Sainz would do better if he hit more crosses? 

It's 2024 and football has (mostly) moved on. The number of crosses that Stacey attempts is an anomaly and, in my opinion, he should mix it up much more; I'd say he should halve the number of crosses and look at passing on the floor for the other half. 

No. And you know I didn't.

And again 'when and how to cross'... delay and lose the ball out wide, especially if down by the byline or get the ball across? Then it's a choice of front, middle or back... You make it sound like it's about delivering to a forehead, it's just not how it's coached.

Football hasn't moved on to 'no crosses' or even 'less crossing'... it may have done that 15-20yrs ago but what you see now is more blended than reliance upon it.

The point re Sainz was is that according to you, more balls on the deck would result in more goals. If that's the argument, Sainz and other players should be well head of Stacey, they're not.

The stats don't stack with the argument you are trying to make, that's my point. Not only that, forward balls are more likely to be unsuccessful, but you want players to be brave and have the conviction to try them... because that's how they get better and the team scores more goals.

If I could be bothered I would look at the correlation of those assists to games in which Barnes and Sargent have been playing in... 

Edited April 29 by chicken

[Petriix 2,853]

@chicken

It's entirely fair (and totally supported by the stats) to say that Stacey hits an unusually high number of crosses from open play. And he is well below average in terms of completion rate. 

Like you say, that doesn't make him bad at crossing per se, but it suggests that he often crosses when there's a low chance of it succeeding which, in my opinion, is just as bad. 

Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps he consistently hits the right areas but our forwards are generally poor at getting to the ball; when they do they actually score... But it seems to me that he has a tendency to not actually read the situation and just lumps it into the box at every opportunity. 

Case in point: on Saturday towards the end of the first half he had the ball in acres of space, a defender was slow to close him down and left a massive hole where (I think) Nunez was making a perfect run towards the edge of the box completely unmarked. Stacey could have simply rolled the ball into his feet for a great chance but instead whipped the ball high towards the far post and over everyone.

I think he makes poor decisions. It's a significant limitation to his otherwise excellent all-round game. 

[chicken 2,673]

6 minutes ago, Petriix said:

@chicken

It's entirely fair (and totally supported by the stats) to say that Stacey hits an unusually high number of crosses from open play. And he is well below average in terms of completion rate. 

Like you say, that doesn't make him bad at crossing per se, but it suggests that he often crosses when there's a low chance of it succeeding which, in my opinion, is just as bad. 

Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps he consistently hits the right areas but our forwards are generally poor at getting to the ball; when they do they actually score... But it seems to me that he has a tendency to not actually read the situation and just lumps it into the box at every opportunity. 

Case in point: on Saturday towards the end of the first half he had the ball in acres of space, a defender was slow to close him down and left a massive hole where (I think) Nunez was making a perfect run towards the edge of the box completely unmarked. Stacey could have simply rolled the ball into his feet for a great chance but instead whipped the ball high towards the far post and over everyone.

I think he makes poor decisions. It's a significant limitation to his otherwise excellent all-round game. 

There is of course a third option, possibly more, as I pointed out before.

He is pretty decent at his runs and being found making them by other players as well as getting into good crossing positions. We typically play with one out and out striker and wingers like Sainz, before him Rowe, and Hernandez.

It isn't about whether strikers are making the right runs, their runs might be right, but players are not psychic, if you only really have Sargent attacking the box in terms of height, and crossing is the best option, then it's going to be hard for the pair of them to be on the same wavelength AND for the ball to evade defenders. That doesn't mean it's not the ball to play. ALL of those things can be correct, no one wrong.

Losing the ball whilst you are out of position is bad. If your winger has drifted in side rather than cover the space behind you, losing the ball on the side you are attacking is dangerous. Playing a ball inside might not be an option, you play for time and chances. Put the ball into the box, the striker hopefully makes a nuisance of themselves, the ball is contested and there is defending to be done. This should give you enough time to get back into position whilst also taking a slim chance of getting something out of it.

Equally, the number of crosses could just be that he gets into position to deliver them so frequently. Again, this isn't just his decision making, it'll be what he has been asked to do by the coaching team. Low balls from out wide only really work if you are closer to the box. We ask our wide players to be further inside as it is.

Lastly, reflect on the season a little. We've played with Sargent, Barnes, Idah, Hwang as outright strikers as well as a plethora of players tried in the position in behind  - No.10?

Stacey Assists:
12/08/23 - Southampton(A) - Sargent, header from cross, 4-4.
07/10/23 - Coventry(A) - Rowe, right foot from a pass, 1-1.
10/02/24 - QPR(A) - Sargent, header from cross, 2-2.
13/02/24 - Watford(H) - Fassnacht, right footed shot from a cross, 4-2.
09/03/24 - Rotherham(H) - 2, Sara header from a cross, Sargent with his left foot from a cross - 5-0.

Stacey Goals:
Stoke(H)

So 7 direct goal involvements from a full back. For comparisons sake.

Max Aarons managed 2 assists and 1 goal last season in a side that was set up not to cross balls but to play them on the deck to Pukki.

Passing it can be safer, but also harder. If you have run to the byline, you have to beat defenders on the ground, when simply standing there can be enough to stop a pass when you are trying to thread a bit of a pin point ball. Crossing can ignore those players and mean that a player can attack a space that perhaps they have an advantage of getting to such as momentum, natural height and leap. From what I could find from various sources, Sargent has scored the most amount of headers by a single player this season with 5. That's just under a third of his goals. Is it a surprise that our wide players are encouraged to cross, especially full backs? 

According to transfermakt, only four full backs have assisted more than Stacey. One has the most assists in Davis at that lot down the road.

I'd say, for any player to come in and hit a great deal of assists for their position in their first season it's good, for a full back it is even more impressive.

Football is about so much more than just stats though, and whatever you think, Stacey is clearly being told to do what he keeps doing. Considering three of his assists were to Sargent, I think it's fair to say, had Sargent been fit for more of this season, Stacey's assists would likely be greater in number, and the fact that they are not, could also at least be suggestive of what we all know, which is none of Sargent's stand ins were/are as good as him.

 

[horsefly 4,318]

What a weird thread. We sold Aarons for multi-millions and replaced him for free with someone who at the very least has proved equally as good. His fitness and endurance is astonishing, and my impression is that he has been better defensively than Aarons. Imagine if right-backs found a striker with 25% of their crosses; we'd probably have results that typically saw double figure goal tallies. The guy has been right up there with our most reliable and best performers this season.

[king canary 7,683]

11 hours ago, Petriix said:

@chicken

It's entirely fair (and totally supported by the stats) to say that Stacey hits an unusually high number of crosses from open play. And he is well below average in terms of completion rate. 

Like you say, that doesn't make him bad at crossing per se, but it suggests that he often crosses when there's a low chance of it succeeding which, in my opinion, is just as bad. 

Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps he consistently hits the right areas but our forwards are generally poor at getting to the ball; when they do they actually score... But it seems to me that he has a tendency to not actually read the situation and just lumps it into the box at every opportunity. 

Case in point: on Saturday towards the end of the first half he had the ball in acres of space, a defender was slow to close him down and left a massive hole where (I think) Nunez was making a perfect run towards the edge of the box completely unmarked. Stacey could have simply rolled the ball into his feet for a great chance but instead whipped the ball high towards the far post and over everyone.

I think he makes poor decisions. It's a significant limitation to his otherwise excellent all-round game. 

Just to add to this as I largely agree.

According to fBref and whoscored, Stacey has attempted the 8th most crosses in the league, has the 7th most inaccurate crosses in the league this season but the 27th most accurate crosses, suggesting he's not brilliant at it.

 

[hogesar 9,784]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

Just to add to this as I largely agree.

According to fBref and whoscored, Stacey has attempted the 8th most crosses in the league, has the 7th most inaccurate crosses in the league this season but the 27th most accurate crosses, suggesting he's not brilliant at it.

 

I think if Stacey was a much better crosser of the ball he wouldn't play for Norwich so it is what it is, to a degree.

But I would also say that Aarons was the opposite to Stacey in that sense and even in a very fluid team where passing inside and dribbling was the go-to, the most amount of assists Max got was 6 in our first promotion season, which was more free-scoring than this one. Stacey has 6 this season.

I only mention because whilst I understand Petriix suggestion of crossing less often, I do think at Championship level even poor crosses can give you the opportunity to pick up loose second balls etc.

Stacey has tremendous ability in his pace and tactically we create plenty of opportunities from the fullbacks but whilst Stacey has 6 assists, McCallum and Gini have 4 between them.

 

[king canary 7,683]

39 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think if Stacey was a much better crosser of the ball he wouldn't play for Norwich so it is what it is, to a degree.

But I would also say that Aarons was the opposite to Stacey in that sense and even in a very fluid team where passing inside and dribbling was the go-to, the most amount of assists Max got was 6 in our first promotion season, which was more free-scoring than this one. Stacey has 6 this season.

I only mention because whilst I understand Petriix suggestion of crossing less often, I do think at Championship level even poor crosses can give you the opportunity to pick up loose second balls etc.

Stacey has tremendous ability in his pace and tactically we create plenty of opportunities from the fullbacks but whilst Stacey has 6 assists, McCallum and Gini have 4 between them.

 

I always find it quite difficult to compare them as Aarons was asked to play a very different role. 

However, Aarons at his peak under Farke was brilliant going forward even in if it doesn't always show up in the assist stats. For example whoscored has him creating 61 chances in the second promotion season, compared to Stacey sitting at 38 right now.

I do agree that crossing can cause chaos but it also quite specifically a low % way to create chances hence why it is much less prevalent that it was. That is somewhat shown up by the fact Aarons created those 61 chances while only putting in 132 crosses while Stacey has put in 191 crosses to create significantly less.

However...we can't fully separate that out from what he's being asked to do. Farke wasn't a manager who liked crossing and he played with a bunch of small attackers so he's likely being actively told not to cross if he doesn't have to, while I'd imagine Stacey is told to try and get crosses in if he can when he has Sargent and Barnes to aim for. 

So to @Petriix's point I guess the question is, do we think Stacey is making poor decisions by putting these crosses in or do we think he's being told to? 

[chicken 2,673]

3 hours ago, king canary said:

I always find it quite difficult to compare them as Aarons was asked to play a very different role. 

However, Aarons at his peak under Farke was brilliant going forward even in if it doesn't always show up in the assist stats. For example whoscored has him creating 61 chances in the second promotion season, compared to Stacey sitting at 38 right now.

I do agree that crossing can cause chaos but it also quite specifically a low % way to create chances hence why it is much less prevalent that it was. That is somewhat shown up by the fact Aarons created those 61 chances while only putting in 132 crosses while Stacey has put in 191 crosses to create significantly less.

However...we can't fully separate that out from what he's being asked to do. Farke wasn't a manager who liked crossing and he played with a bunch of small attackers so he's likely being actively told not to cross if he doesn't have to, while I'd imagine Stacey is told to try and get crosses in if he can when he has Sargent and Barnes to aim for. 

So to @Petriix's point I guess the question is, do we think Stacey is making poor decisions by putting these crosses in or do we think he's being told to? 

Proof is in the pudding. 1/3rd of Sargents goals are from headers. That's not by chance and it won't have been through 'poor' choices.

It's also key to remember that Sargent has been out injured along with Barnes, for a large chunk of the season. Stacey has been crossimg to Huang, Idah and others who are, perhaps, not as good in the air.

There's also no way that the head coach and his team will be sitting there bemoaning Stacey's penchant for crossing and not directing him and coaching him to do otherwise.

We have to take it on merit that they are aware of the statistics, and they are, and encourage/support what he does.

Hog raises a good point. We've just looked at assists from crossing, but how many goals have come from a ball into the box but after a blocked shot or a defensive touch to an attacker?