Wagner has gone nuclear

[Sufyellow 222]

6 hours ago, Virtual reality said:

Previous teams that got promoted also got ripped apart in the PL. The atmosphere and attitude towards them in the championship campaign leading up to that promotion was fully committed though. I also think we will likely get destroyed if promoted but it isn’t a certainty. 

Totally agree,  trouble for us is , it's still fresh in the memory and is a huge problem.  If we had done nothing for ten years we would be loving this now. I sit and watch it with that memory,  when I see a mistake playing it out , I see that as being a goal against every time in the prem,  and I only see us scoring the odd goals, it's probably the wrong attitude .

[Sufyellow 222]

2 hours ago, Gordon Bennett said:

I don't understand why our fans think they're untouchable. It's ok to criticise everyone from the moment the team is announced an hour before kick off and to boo during the game it would seem, and if we don't win to go to town on the manager and any players seen as fair game, not to mention the owners and those working for them. Yet a little bit comes back and it's the end of the the world. Same principle as folk who sit in the front row of football atadiums, abuse opposition players and then scream the place down if a player reacts. Utter entitlement. 

I haven't seen anyone upset by him. He's just wrong to say he wants fans to stay away who booed, especially when it was probably 5 plus thousand.  

[S_81 829]

6 hours ago, horsefly said:

Both Hernandez and Sargent declared they were injured at half-time. A few minutes into the second half when their injuries persisted Wagner rightly replaced them. Fans booing did so without this knowledge. If ever there was a good example of why unknowledgeable fans shouldn't boo, this is it.

I think, like at QPR, they were disagreeing with him seemingly trying to hold a slender lead. Rather than going like for like. That’s how i interpreted it anyhow 

[S_81 829]

3 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Where has this b0ll0cks come from? It’s not an average league, it’s no better or worse than it’s always been. Saying it’s an average league is simply another stick to beat the manager, implying that we should be walking it because we’re above everybody else.

The 2nd tier has always been closely matched, that’s what made it such an exciting division 

Watch your language if you want a discussion 

[Fen Canary 856]

13 minutes ago, S_81 said:

Watch your language if you want a discussion 

When did football fans get so squeamish about some naughty language? I can understand if it’s an insult aimed at somebody but it’s a bit pathetic getting your knickers in a twist over an adjective 

[S_81 829]

8 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

When did football fans get so squeamish about some naughty language? I can understand if it’s an insult aimed at somebody but it’s a bit pathetic getting your knickers in a twist over an adjective 

To answer your prior point - bar the top 4 there’s not much between a lot of the teams in the league. Very much a much of a muchness. And a few key players can make a huge difference. As can a good manager. It’s an enjoyable league to be part of for that reason. But can also be frustrating if not fully taking advantage of how winnable many games are. 

Edited February 14 by S_81

[Fen Canary 856]

10 minutes ago, S_81 said:

To answer your prior point - bar the top 4 there’s not much between a lot of the teams in the league. Very much a much of a muchness. And a few key players can make a huge difference. As can a good manager. It’s an enjoyable league to be part of for that reason. But can also be frustrating if not fully taking advantage of how winnable many games are. 

That doesn’t make it a weak league though does it? Why does close mean poor quality, and which seasons are you comparing it to when the quality of players throughout the division was much higher than this season? 

[S_81 829]

6 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

That doesn’t make it a weak league though does it? Why does close mean poor quality, and which seasons are you comparing it to when the quality of players throughout the division was much higher than this season? 

I said from 4th down it was average. A much of a muchness. A few talented players make a big difference. As per our upturn in form after key injury recovery.  I didn’t say it was weak or poor quality. Poor management can make a big difference though. As indeed can good management. Wagner showed the former on Saturday. Over recent weeks however he’s shown the latter. 

[Newtopia 519]

12 hours ago, Sufyellow said:

So if I sing all the way through the game,  and then boo a substitution,  I am not a supporter? They were both wrong,  you don't tell your customers, fans to go and support someone else , or don't come to football, if the fans took him up on it last night there will be 18,000 fans next season,  that's another player to sell. Our fan base keep us where we are . 

When you sing you are definitely being supportive - when you boo your not.   More panto lover opposed to supporting players and coaches (plus others) who are trying their best for our club.  OTBC

[horsefly 4,310]

12 hours ago, S_81 said:

I think, like at QPR, they were disagreeing with him seemingly trying to hold a slender lead. Rather than going like for like. That’s how i interpreted it anyhow 

Indeed! And they got it completely wrong. The players substituted had declared themselves injured at half-time. It seemed pretty obvious at the time that the very early nature of those substitutions was a clear indication that it was injury concerns that motivated them. There simply was no excuse to boo. It was pig-ignorant. Why would any player want to stay at a club whose fickle fans turn on them like that? Imagine being Fassnacht and Nunez arriving onto the pitch to that roar of boos. Appalling!

[S_81 829]

19 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Indeed! And they got it completely wrong. The players substituted had declared themselves injured at half-time. It seemed pretty obvious at the time that the very early nature of those substitutions was a clear indication that it was injury concerns that motivated them. There simply was no excuse to boo. It was pig-ignorant. Why would any player want to stay at a club whose fickle fans turn on them like that? Imagine being Fassnacht and Nunez arriving onto the pitch to that roar of boos. Appalling!

I don’t disagree with you re the message to the players coming on. Can’t be pleasant. But the fans didn’t ‘get it wrong’ in their understanding - as i believe they were wanting to see an attacking like with like in terms of Sydney for Sarge. That’s the point I’m making. The criticism at both QPR and Watford was the perception that we were going more defensive in the approach when the game had not been won.  
 

Im not justifying the booing. But I think it’s important to recognise its basis. 

Edited February 15 by S_81

[horsefly 4,310]

23 minutes ago, S_81 said:

I don’t disagree with you re the message to the players coming on. Can’t be pleasant. But the fans didn’t ‘get it wrong’ in their understanding - as i believe they were wanting to see an attacking like with like in terms of Sydney for Sarge. That’s the point I’m making. The criticism at both QPR and Watford was the perception that we were going more defensive in the approach when the game had not been won.  
 

Im not justifying the booing. But I think it’s important to recognise its basis. 

And yet none of the fans were witness to the training sessions pre the game. None of the fans know what the state is of Syd's fitness levels, etc, etc. There was no excuse to boo. For me it remains an act of simple ignorance that unfortunately soured what was a very good squad performance. 

Edited February 15 by horsefly

[shefcanary 2,441]

16 minutes ago, S_81 said:

I don’t disagree with you re the message to the players coming on. Can’t be pleasant. But the fans didn’t ‘get it wrong’ in their understanding - as i believe they were wanting to see an attacking like with like in terms of Sydney for Sarge. That’s the point I’m making. The criticism at both QPR and Watford was the perception that we were going more defensive in the approach when the game had not been won.  
 

Im not justifying the booing. But I think it’s important to recognise its basis. 

See recent posts on Parma's State of the Nation thread for a good explanation of this point. 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,036]

12 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Indeed! And they got it completely wrong. The players substituted had declared themselves injured at half-time. It seemed pretty obvious at the time that the very early nature of those substitutions was a clear indication that it was injury concerns that motivated them. There simply was no excuse to boo. It was pig-ignorant. Why would any player want to stay at a club whose fickle fans turn on them like that? Imagine being Fassnacht and Nunez arriving onto the pitch to that roar of boos. Appalling!

The unfortunate thing is that whilst the booing is clearly aimed at Wagner and not the players, the players are caught in the crossfire so to speak. 

The booing of the subs was not particularly widespread near where I sat as most of us could see Sarge was struggling and we knew Onel had hurt himself in his tangle with Jamal Lewis.

Putting aside the reasons for the substitutions I think what upset some people was the defensive appearance of the substitution in a game we were bossing.

After the substitutions were made we conceded meaning we had gone from 2-0 up to all square at 2-2, which triggered the very loud and widespread "You don't know what you are doing" chant". It needs to be borne in mind that at 2-0 up we appeared to take our foot of the gas rather than putting the game beyond all doubt, and the habit of messing about with the ball at the back bit us on the bum (again).

None of this is meant to condone the booing which was (as it turned out) daft, the chant I can kind of get as it was borne out of frustration from losing a 2-0 lead in a game we were bossing.

In hindsight the chant was equally daft.

All of the above is about trying to put some context into what was a very strange and emotive night at Carrow Road.

In the words of the Sex Pistols "No one is innocent" and I really hope we win again against Cardiff on Saturday and that a truce breaks out.........

[norfolkngood 1,087]

i do think Webber started this trend of having a go at Fans so others Like Delia at AGM and Now Wagner think it is ok to do so ,

i am not saying the fans are right at all ,

But the club has to realise this cost fans a lot of money some travel 100's of miles even for home games 

some take time off work etc and to criticise them is not a way for professional people to go about their business 

it has created this Divide which will be hard to mend 

 

[horsefly 4,310]

5 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

The unfortunate thing is that whilst the booing is clearly aimed at Wagner and not the players, the players are caught in the crossfire so to speak. 

The booing of the subs was not particularly widespread near where I sat as most of us could see Sarge was struggling and we knew Onel had hurt himself in his tangle with Jamal Lewis.

Putting aside the reasons for the substitutions I think what upset some people was the defensive appearance of the substitution in a game we were bossing.

After the substitutions were made we conceded meaning we had gone from 2-0 up to all square at 2-2, which triggered the very loud and widespread "You don't know what you are doing" chant". It needs to be borne in mind that at 2-0 up we appeared to take our foot of the gas rather than putting the game beyond all doubt, and the habit of messing about with the ball at the back bit us on the bum (again).

None of this is meant to condone the booing which was (as it turned out) daft, the chant I can kind of get as it was borne out of frustration from losing a 2-0 lead in a game we were bossing.

In hindsight the chant was equally daft.

All of the above is about trying to put some context into what was a very strange and emotive night at Carrow Road.

In the words of the Sex Pistols "No one is innocent" and I really hope we win again against Cardiff on Saturday and that a truce breaks out.........

I don't really disagree with any of that analysis. I think it clearly true that the boos were aimed at the so-called "negative" substitutions. Indeed, I myself was hoping for a straight swap of Syd for Sarge. But I, like most people, didn't boo. Because I, like everyone in the crowd, had no idea what the reasoning and information was that informed Wagner's judgement.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,036]

6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I don't really disagree with any of that analysis. I think it clearly true that the boos were aimed at the so-called "negative" substitutions. Indeed, I myself was hoping for a straight swap of Syd for Sarge. But I, like most people, didn't boo. Because I, like everyone in the crowd, had no idea what the reasoning and information was that informed Wagner's judgement.

I would not disagree with your analysis either and I and the people I sit with did not boo (or join in wit the chant) but within the circle of supporters I speak to both at the ground and out and about after games I encounter a perception of Wagner as being a negative head coach, I am not saying that perception is right or wrong but that perception clearly shapes some of the crowds reactions............

[Sufyellow 222]

9 hours ago, Newtopia said:

When you sing you are definitely being supportive - when you boo your not.   More panto lover opposed to supporting players and coaches (plus others) who are trying their best for our club.  OTBC

That's the problem,  I sang for 90 mins and booed a substitution because I would have liked to see a striker for a striker,  after what happened at QPR,  Maybe it was wrong to boo , but I guess about half of the ground were wrong with me. Would I be a better fan to sit in silence for 80 mins and leave with 10 to go , or be a passionate fan and some times get it wrong?  I like most who booed don't want Wagner sacked, and I certainly will not be sulking Saturday even though he was wrong to say keep away. I will be singing all game hopefully.  

[Sufyellow 222]

7 hours ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

The unfortunate thing is that whilst the booing is clearly aimed at Wagner and not the players, the players are caught in the crossfire so to speak. 

The booing of the subs was not particularly widespread near where I sat as most of us could see Sarge was struggling and we knew Onel had hurt himself in his tangle with Jamal Lewis.

Putting aside the reasons for the substitutions I think what upset some people was the defensive appearance of the substitution in a game we were bossing.

After the substitutions were made we conceded meaning we had gone from 2-0 up to all square at 2-2, which triggered the very loud and widespread "You don't know what you are doing" chant". It needs to be borne in mind that at 2-0 up we appeared to take our foot of the gas rather than putting the game beyond all doubt, and the habit of messing about with the ball at the back bit us on the bum (again).

None of this is meant to condone the booing which was (as it turned out) daft, the chant I can kind of get as it was borne out of frustration from losing a 2-0 lead in a game we were bossing.

In hindsight the chant was equally daft.

All of the above is about trying to put some context into what was a very strange and emotive night at Carrow Road.

In the words of the Sex Pistols "No one is innocent" and I really hope we win again against Cardiff on Saturday and that a truce breaks out.........

Yep , time to draw a line under it. And hopefully enjoy Saturday.

[Mr Tea 105]

On 14/02/2024 at 08:48, Sufyellow said:

So we didn't boo then? 

Not when winning, no