Talks have been held about Wagners future

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

2 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

The point is rather that Farke should have had a lot of credit in the bank that might have seen him shown more faith - on the back of his successes.

Smith had no credit in the bank, neither has Wagner, because neither of them have achieved anything at the club. But both have been shown more loyalty than Farke was. Such a brutal ending to what remains a highly successful period in the clubs recent history.

None of his successes mattered when it came to ending his tenure. And yet faith is being shown to managers who have achieved nothing. 

Farke was with us 4 and a half seasons. The club stuck by him after s spectacular relegation. Smith didn't even get as much loyalty as Wagner, who disappointed last season in the Championship, has not reached the peaks in the league table Smith did while diving deeper faster, yet oddly he's still less of a figure of hate around here than Smith is.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

21 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The club stuck by him after s spectacular relegation

I suppose it comes down to who you blame for that relegation. We'd been somewhat of a surprise package winning the Championship, certainly the season before there were few signs of what was about to come. Indeed I thought Webber was a one-trick pony and had simply tried to do with Farke what he had done with Wagner at Huddersfield by raiding Borussia Dortmand 2 again. Certainly after Farke's first season I thought he was a pound-shop Wagner. Like booking Embrace when you couldnt get Oasis. 

Yet Wagner looks far from the real deal at the moment. It's very unlikely he will survive this and is a dead man walking.

But is Farke to blame for that relegation? Liverpool was men against boys. We believed in Farke and the kids, indeed we had more shots at Anfield than any opposing team in the previous 2 years I believe. Just a false start we hoped and when Pukki scored his hat-trick against Newcastle it looked like we were going to ride the momentum like many a team in their first Premier League season (Sheff Utd and Reading come to mind). Neutral fans loved us in the beginning like they had with Swansea - our approach was commended and we were being talked of as potentially being the best team ever to go down. But then the bubble burst.

Ultimately the surprise promotion saw the club take a 'free hit' approach, cop the money and parachute payments and provide a secure foundation for the club going forward, with the plan to bounce back by being ready to hit the Championship again running. This is what also saw us become hated by the neutral who saw us as cynical money-grabbers with no ambition to have an authentic attempt at staying up.

Farke was sacrificed because the club had faith in the players they had recruited, and not the manager. Their intonation was that Farke was a nearly man who was squandering genuine quality (the bazookas), and a new manager would stop them underperforming.

We now know those players were duds, not world beaters, and that Webber's recruitment has been consistently poor.

So when Farke wasnt able to keep the team up with some kids and some players plucked from the German third tier, and then given duds on our return after having his best and key player Emi sold out from under him - who do you hold responsible for the poor start. Given what we now know about the quality of the players he was working with? I mean Smith didnt get anything out of that group. Sargent, Rashica and Tzolis were all awful recruits. As was Billy Gilmour. It was as if the club learned nothing form the RVW and Naismith signings.

So I dont hold Farke responsible for that relegation. Nor do I hold Smith accountable. The failing is of the club and its approach as a whole - but they made Farke the fall guy, the scape goat, the patsy. It will be interesting to see how he fares at Leeds.

Edited November 9, 2023 by The Great Mass Debater

[Morph 19]

Question to all then. If the club sticks by Wagner and it continues on its current trajectory towards relegation do we all feel that is acceptable as part of the whole reset process?

I mean Barnes and Sargent could come back and early season form is rediscovered or the team continues to under perform and get stuck fighting for survival.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

No. Wagner should be getting results now. Transition period is well and truly over. This is his team and his tactics, and it's not going very well. 

I cant see him turning it round like the famous Mark Robins goal saving SAF from the chop before he could get going. Wagner is toast I think. They've only stuck with him because of the transition of power. Now is not the time to change the manager from their point of view, irrespective of how poorly he is doing. Wagner is essentially a dunsel at this point.

 

Back to the Farke thing. The question I have for most is - do you give Farke a pass for his first Premier League season? We knew the team needed strengthening after a surprise promotion achieved with German 3rd tier players and kids. But there was no investment. Byram being our only fee for £350,000 I believe. If we accept Farke was sent to war with no weaponry for that season, and it was treated like a free hit is his should his prior Premier League record be disregarded, given the hopeless position he was put in. I think it should, and probably so did the club hence not sacking him - they agreed it wasnt his fault.

So if we disregard that season, Farke truly genuinely sacked off the back of 11 games.

We have lost 8 of our last 10 games - and yet Wagner is still here. So my question is - why is a man with no credit in the bank shown more faith than a man who had oodles?

That's why I believe Farke was treated poorly.

If you feel he should be judged by his Premier League record as a whole then fair enough, it was awful. But the club clearly felt Farke was mismanaging a squad full of diamonds. We now know that he wasnt. He was given a bunch of duds. Farke was the one who paid the price for it, when really it should have been whomever was responsible for recruitment.

Being priced out of the Ajer signing for example, by Brentford - a club we should be able to go toe to toe with. He proved to be a good signing for them and may illustrate that with more ambition we could have got first choices over the line, instead of wasting the money where we did.

If I was Farke and my job that season was on the line, I would have been hopping mad that 10.5m of my warchest was splurged on one for the future (Tzolis). That money would have been far better spent on increasing our offers for targets we were outbid on to get them over the line. 

[DraytonBoy 152]

There are several unknowns regarding Wagner's position - does Knapper want to see how things go for the next few weeks, does the 12 month rolling contract really mean he'll always be due a big pay-off if he's sacked along with his team, is there any money available for the January window which is now just weeks away and has he lost the dressing room.

Ordinarily, losing 8 of the last 10 would mean the end but allegedly Wagner still has the backing of Delia and Michael so something doesn't seem right to me.  

[komakino 272]

Knapper would have say over whether Wagner stays or goes being Sporting Director. If there was - or is - interference from above him that affects his ability to make a decision, then any credible person in his position would resign. 

Quite what Delia & Michael are playing at by personally calling Wagner I don't know, but it smacks of rank amateur behaviour. After over 25 years here, they should know better but I really should not be surprised. 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

Considering the manner in which Farke was sacked, after a win should Wagner be feeling more nervous??

[Channon’s Windmill 326]

I guess the easy option for the club after a win would be for Wagner to remain, with a two week break and a real opportunity to set this season on an upward trajectory I hope they are brave enough to change things. Wagner, nice guy he may be but, fresh start time.