Covid enquiry today

[dylanisabaddog 4,932]

First huge lie, the missing WhatsApp messages. 

Really? 

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

BoJo said he took personal responsibility for absolutely everything, so the KC simply went through a long list of all the problematic decisions, such as on care homes, and forced BoJo to admit responsibility.

[Herman 9,780]

I was hoping the judge would be wearing a black cap. 

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

In order to join the fast track scheme in the Civil Service, ultimately with the aim of becoming a Senior Civil Servant, it has for some time been necessary to pass a verbal reasoning test which is similar to an IQ test. Whilst I think that anyone elected should be allowed to sit as an MP, I can see no good reason why appointment as a Government Minister should not be dependent on passing the same test. Quite simply, we want the best people in the most important jobs. 

Yes - I didn't wish to be be over prescriptive but it is important these days that those who purport to make decisions have the skills to at least understand the basic science/data, often numerical or statistical in nature to make sense of of it. Else my dog could do the job.  

[sonyc 5,529]

35 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes - I didn't wish to be be over prescriptive but it is important these days that those who purport to make decisions have the skills to at least understand the basic science/data, often numerical or statistical in nature to make sense of of it. Else my dog could do the job.  

Yes, and we could measure in a similar way to football's xG couldn't we?

Expected guff? Expected garbage?

Johnson's xG in the pandemic would have been off the scale ..with his ministers assists (xA) also registering new territory. 

I turned it on for a minute or two only and was again shocked by just how light weight he is and how anyone might have been taken in by the fellow. Such a lack of depth in him when he tries to indicate otherwise at times, cultivating an image. The bumbling fool persona actually appears to match the real man. Amazing if not so serious.

And the US public look like they might vote in Trump again.

A kind of cult following is one concept to explain all of this? Personalities being more important than policies? It's happening the world over. Folk who want to blow up politics - you can see why that attracted some Brexit voters. Some felt very disenfranchised. A lack of connection. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by sonyc

[Herman 9,780]

Is he answering anything properly? I've heard a few clips and it's just obfuscation and waffle. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,932]

One of the many irritating things about the man is that he can't pronounce the word 'to'. He says 'ter'. It really grates after a while. 

To answer @Hermanquestion. It's actually not as bad as I thought it would be. But when faced with the fact that we had the worst death rate in Western Europe he simply said it wasn't true. It was quite bizarre. 

[Naturalcynic 632]

Haters gonna hate.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

Under oath:

Johnson claims he can't remember why he met Evgeny Lebedev at No 10 days before lockdown. Keith asks about Johnson’s meeting with Evgeny Lebedev, the Evening Standard owner, in the week before the lockdown was formally announced. Why did it take place?

Johnson claims he cannot remember, but he says he thinks it was about Covid. As owner of a London paper, Lebedev had to know what was happening, he says.

Neither Keith nor Johnson name Lebedev.

Keith does not press Johnson about this.

It is widely assumed that this meeting took place to discuss Lebedev’s peerage, which at the time was being blocked by the House of Lords Appointments Commission. Johnson did not have face to face meeting with other newspaper owners at this point, and indeed people were being advised to avoid any unnecessary face to face meetings.

[Herman 9,780]

21 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Haters gonna hate.

One of the worst PMs in our lifetimes. What's there to like? 

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

Supposedly BoJo can't remembre how many children he has fathered, so no surprise that a frequent answer today was "I cannot remember" or "I don't recall that."

[MooreMarriot 311]

2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Under oath:

Johnson claims he can't remember why he met Evgeny Lebedev at No 10 days before lockdown. Keith asks about Johnson’s meeting with Evgeny Lebedev, the Evening Standard owner, in the week before the lockdown was formally announced. Why did it take place?

Johnson claims he cannot remember, but he says he thinks it was about Covid. As owner of a London paper, Lebedev had to know what was happening, he says.

Neither Keith nor Johnson name Lebedev.

Keith does not press Johnson about this.

It is widely assumed that this meeting took place to discuss Lebedev’s peerage, which at the time was being blocked by the House of Lords Appointments Commission. Johnson did not have face to face meeting with other newspaper owners at this point, and indeed people were being advised to avoid any unnecessary face to face meetings.

He also had a private meeting with ex KGB agent Alexander Lebedev , Evegeny's father , when he was Foreign Secretary with no government officials present which was against all normal protocol. To this day he claims he can't remember what they talked about. And as Putin has said.......there is no such thing as an ex KGB agent. 

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

On 06/12/2023 at 10:59, PurpleCanary said:

A prediction. BoJo the Clown will put the knife into Sunak over the Eat Out And Kill Your Fellow Diners scheme.

No scientists attended meetings about eat out to help out scheme before it launched, says Johnson

Johnson has walked back claims that Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance were present to “properly discuss” the eat out to help out scheme before it went live, conceding that no scientists attended meetings about the scheme.

Johnson said he had “frankly assumed” they were involved in talks about the scheme with the Treasury and that he was “surprised it was smuggled past them”.

[Herman 9,780]

2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

No scientists attended meetings about eat out to help out scheme before it launched, says Johnson

Johnson has walked back claims that Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance were present to “properly discuss” the eat out to help out scheme before it went live, conceding that no scientists attended meetings about the scheme.

Johnson said he had “frankly assumed” they were involved in talks about the scheme with the Treasury and that he was “surprised it was smuggled past them”.

I wonder what slogan is on that bus that Bozo just threw Sunak under?! 

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

20 hours ago, MooreMarriot said:

He also had a private meeting with ex KGB agent Alexander Lebedev , Evegeny's father , when he was Foreign Secretary with no government officials present which was against all normal protocol. To this day he claims he can't remember what they talked about. And as Putin has said.......there is no such thing as an ex KGB agent. 

That's long covid affecting his memory.....

[sonyc 5,529]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

I wonder what slogan is on that bus that Bozo just threw Sunak under?! 

 

You can buy a whole range of slogans H!😂

Fantastic Xmas gifts really.

I love those two examples above.

[dylanisabaddog 4,932]

On 07/12/2023 at 15:14, sonyc said:

 

You can buy a whole range of slogans H!😂

Fantastic Xmas gifts really.

I love those two examples above.

Of course I love you! Very funny indeed. 

Can you actually buy these things? 

[sonyc 5,529]

On 09/12/2023 at 05:58, dylanisabaddog said:

Of course I love you! Very funny indeed. 

Can you actually buy these things? 

I wish you could D🙂 ...but alas you'll have to get some of the latest Ladybird books instead.

Couple of recently published here...

[Nik Vawn 129]

On 06/12/2023 at 12:20, sonyc said:

Yes, and we could measure in a similar way to football's xG couldn't we?

Expected guff? Expected garbage?

Johnson's xG in the pandemic would have been off the scale ..with his ministers assists (xA) also registering new territory. 

I turned it on for a minute or two only and was again shocked by just how light weight he is and how anyone might have been taken in by the fellow. Such a lack of depth in him when he tries to indicate otherwise at times, cultivating an image. The bumbling fool persona actually appears to match the real man. Amazing if not so serious.

And the US public look like they might vote in Trump again.

A kind of cult following is one concept to explain all of this? Personalities being more important than policies? It's happening the world over. Folk who want to blow up politics - you can see why that attracted some Brexit voters. Some felt very disenfranchised. A lack of connection. 

If democracy cant throw up anything better than BJ, Trump, Biden, Milei, Wilders et al. then really there is little hope.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,553]

Has anything useful come out of this process to learn for future pandemics or has it just been a big waste of money for ammunition in party political humdrum?

Edited December 10, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,529]

45 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Has anything useful come out of this process to learn for future pandemics or has it just been a big waste of money for ammunition in party political humdrum?

It's hard really to get past your last point because it feels like a blaming exercise from the outside, whether you dip in or watch for a longer period. Yet that is because of the 'characters' on the stage...Johnson, Hancock and Cummings to name the main people of course.

I think overall the pandemic has needed an inquiry because it's been a once in a century 'event' plus the UK's death rates. Clearly, there were mistakes but maybe many countries made similar poor decisions. The troubles with the current administration (PPE, fast lane contracts, T and T waste and decisions on lockdowns and the terrible tiering system with it's confusing messaging) has been well tracked. That's even before you consider the quality of pre pandemic preparedness and the care sector fiasco. It was quite a spectacle really when I think back to some incredible press briefings. 

I think I've read that Sweden has completed it's inquiry and is moving on (haven't checked as I write so Iight be mistaken). Typical of the Scandinavians if so.

What has been apparent is that it has opened up internal government workings and especially communications. It hasn't been an easy watch because of ministers (still) trying to cover their backs and assigning blame elsewhere. Downing Street seems to have been both a toxic place to work and chaotic.

I can't help thinking that there will be stiffer regulation ahead about how government ministers communicate and record. That may be positive for rebuilding trust as well as to give guidelines for ministers in the future. They ought to have behaved better (I'm referencing the WhatsApp groupings as well as press leaked stuff - the parties and so on).

All in all it MAY give some families a bit of closure. I'm clear though that trust in Johnson is probably at an all time low (even in the shires). I don't think his reputation will recover. He will always be remembered for his lies, his deceit. And he is too damaged. But I might be wrong there but it's my take.

I hope there is recognition of the NHS ahead. (..the care sector too). We had clapping for the NHS but I now wonder whether it was all rather hollow. If there is a Labour government ahead then likewise I hope they act on the final findings (expected I believe in 2 years time).

I recall I posted many times in the midst of the pandemic (on the main thread at the time) that I feared the pandemic was too big for a Johnson government and believe overall I was proved right unfortunately (wish I had been wrong). 

I've not read about what's the feeling sense of the French experience / post mortem nor have I researched the German experience.

One clear (and wonderful) thing was that there was widespread scientific cooperation (and this was mentioned in the inquiry) during the pandemic and of course we had vaccine development that proved effective in such a short time. This work, as one or two others have mentioned, will feed into other medical research fields (cancers etc) and we may hear of breakthroughs ahead. 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by sonyc
Paragraphs - always a challenge typing on a mobile

[dylanisabaddog 4,932]

@sonycthat is a reasonable summary. My answer to @littleyellowbirdieis that it appears so far to be a wasted opportunity and has turned into a back covering and stone throwing exercise. My view remains that this should be a mainly scientific review of what we got right and wrong leading to conclusions as to how we could do better in the future.

Most telling, so far at least, is that there has been no examination of how other countries approached the problem and why they had better or worse outcomes. 

From a personal point of view, my probably simplistic view was that we had a huge advantage over mainland Europe because we're an island. That view was rubbished very early on with no explanation. I'm happy to admit that I'm probably wrong but I'd just like to know why. 

Having said all that, it is possible to draw some conclusions, the main one being that if you vote for clowns you get a circus. Starmer upset people on the left recently by praising Thatcher for having purpose and vision. I disliked her intensely but had she been in charge the outcome would have been better. The same could be said of Blair but not, in my opinion, of Corbyn so as far as politicians go it's all been about luck and timing. No one has so far mentioned the possibility that we should or could have set up a 'wartime' cabinet to take control. 

The most telling testimony so far has come from a young female Senior Civil Servant. She described an early Cabinet meeting at which it was decided to allow Cheltenham and a Liverpool football match to go ahead because 'if they were cancelled all the people present would just go to the pub instead'. She looked round the table and realised she was probably the only one there who had ever attended a football match as a normal paying customer. Virtually everyone on this forum knows that view is absolute nonsense but no one in the Cabinet had the faintest idea how ordinary people go about their lives. 

The same young lady mentioned at an early stage that lockdown would result in increased domestic violence. She may as well have repeatedly banged her head on the table. 

On an individual level, nothing that Johnson said surprised me. I haven't changed my mind about him and I very much doubt anyone else has. So that was probably a complete waste of 2 days. 

The two people who have disturbed me the most were Cain and Cummings. Cain is ordinary and I can think of several people on this forum who are more impressive. No one has explained why an unelected communications expert became heavily involved in the decision making process. 

As for Cummings, he is simply disturbing. He is clearly incapable of considering that he may be wrong about anything. He frightens me. 

Apologies for waffling! 

Edit 

I just listened to a report on the Sunak immigration issue in which a reporter said that a large number of Tory MPs consider Johnson and Farage to be the dream ticket for next year's election. I'm lost for words..... 

Edited December 11, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[sonyc 5,529]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The two people who have disturbed me the most were Cain and Cummings. Cain is ordinary and I can think of several people on this forum who are more impressive. No one has explained why an unelected communications expert became heavily involved in the decision making process. 

As for Cummings, he is simply disturbing. He is clearly incapable of considering that he may be wrong about anything. He frightens me. 

Apologies for waffling! 

Edit 

I just listened to a report on the Sunak immigration issue in which a reporter said that a large number of Tory MPs consider Johnson and Farage to be the dream ticket for next year's election. I'm lost for words..... 

Yes D, the Cummings affair was incredible. That he could construct his answer (in a kind of legal statement in the Rose Garden) in the way he did was quite the spectacle. We were expected just to accept his rather implausible rationale about testing his eyesight. We were also amazed too that Johnson hadn't dismissed him, whether he had actually gone on two trips or not.

Cummings sounds a nasty piece of work doesn't he...many of his statements littered with anger and F words about other people who were unfortunate enough not to have his intellect. I can just imagine the Brexit campaign with him coordinating it  (Dominic Cumberbatch played him I think quite faithfully in a reenactment TV programme). And since he has even stated I believe that we might have not been best served by Brexit. Yet, it suited a personality like him - to serve his ego. What does it say for Johnson's judgement to invite such a man into government and to have such influence?

As for your last sentence and nik vawn's point above I think we have properly entered the domain of personality being the most important factor. Why else would people vote for someone like Johnson? Or Farage?

We are led by donkeys and are happy for them to lead. Maybe only real nutters want such power anyway. I recall very many of them in senior positions in former jobs. Folk who had very little self awareness or humility. Occasionally you get someone a bit special. I'm sure politics is much the same. It attracts the wrong people on the whole. 

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

25 minutes ago, sonyc said:

As for your last sentence and nik vawn's point above I think we have properly entered the domain of personality being the most important factor. Why else would people vote for someone like Johnson? Or Farage?

This is what really worries me SC. The argument for democracy is really founded on 'sensible' competent people being in charge agree or not with their politics. Thatcher, Blair, Heath, Wilson, Major, Brown etc. If it simply becomes a social media personality contest irrespective of any competency, morals or even workable policy then its actually difficult to argue in favour of that as opposed to any other benign but competent dictatorship. It will be the final infantilization of the electorate.

[dylanisabaddog 4,932]

14 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Has anything useful come out of this process to learn for future pandemics or has it just been a big waste of money for ammunition in party political humdrum?

I've just stopped listening to the KC questioning Sunak. It's absolutely ridiculous. He was Chancellor at the time but he is constantly being asked questions about decisions which he wasn't part of. 

There are plenty of things that Sunak should be asked about this week. What Johnson did 3 almost years ago isn't one of them. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by dylanisabaddog
The Queen died🙄

[dylanisabaddog 4,932]

Another rant. The KC asked Sunak to be more concise in a reply to an extremely complex question. He then asked Sunak to speak slower so that the stenographers could keep up. What is the matter with this country? Does no one have a tape recorder?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,553]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

This is what really worries me SC. The argument for democracy is really founded on 'sensible' competent people being in charge agree or not with their politics. Thatcher, Blair, Heath, Wilson, Major, Brown etc. If it simply becomes a social media personality contest irrespective of any competency, morals or even workable policy then its actually difficult to argue in favour of that as opposed to any other benign but competent dictatorship. It will be the final infantilization of the electorate.

Dictatorship can provide sensible government. The problem is you have no chance to remove a dictatorship if you decide they're not sensible.

The argument for democracy is first and foremost about government by consent of the governed. Whether government is sensible is merely a product of what the democratic system churns out.

The value of democracy is providing mechanisms for meaningful change according to public will that don't involve violent uprising.

True infantilisation of the electorate entails limiting choice according to some other body prescribing what's sensible and limiting choice on that basis.

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

On 06/12/2023 at 17:53, PurpleCanary said:

Supposedly BoJo can't remembre how many children he has fathered, so no surprise that a frequent answer today was "I cannot remember" or "I don't recall that."

Weaponised incompetence at its finest.

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

For me - the giveaway is that Johnson missed the first 5 (FIVE) cobra meetings on a clear threat that killed hundreds of thousands and potentially millions of Brits.

That smacks of gross incompetence or of not being across his brief. It is inexcusable.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

11 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

@sonycthat is a reasonable summary. My answer to @littleyellowbirdieis that it appears so far to be a wasted opportunity and has turned into a back covering and stone throwing exercise. My view remains that this should be a mainly scientific review of what we got right and wrong leading to conclusions as to how we could do better in the future.

Most telling, so far at least, is that there has been no examination of how other countries approached the problem and why they had better or worse outcomes. 

From a personal point of view, my probably simplistic view was that we had a huge advantage over mainland Europe because we're an island. That view was rubbished very early on with no explanation. I'm happy to admit that I'm probably wrong but I'd just like to know why. 

Having said all that, it is possible to draw some conclusions, the main one being that if you vote for clowns you get a circus. Starmer upset people on the left recently by praising Thatcher for having purpose and vision. I disliked her intensely but had she been in charge the outcome would have been better. The same could be said of Blair but not, in my opinion, of Corbyn so as far as politicians go it's all been about luck and timing. No one has so far mentioned the possibility that we should or could have set up a 'wartime' cabinet to take control. 

The most telling testimony so far has come from a young female Senior Civil Servant. She described an early Cabinet meeting at which it was decided to allow Cheltenham and a Liverpool football match to go ahead because 'if they were cancelled all the people present would just go to the pub instead'. She looked round the table and realised she was probably the only one there who had ever attended a football match as a normal paying customer. Virtually everyone on this forum knows that view is absolute nonsense but no one in the Cabinet had the faintest idea how ordinary people go about their lives. 

The same young lady mentioned at an early stage that lockdown would result in increased domestic violence. She may as well have repeatedly banged her head on the table. 

On an individual level, nothing that Johnson said surprised me. I haven't changed my mind about him and I very much doubt anyone else has. So that was probably a complete waste of 2 days. 

The two people who have disturbed me the most were Cain and Cummings. Cain is ordinary and I can think of several people on this forum who are more impressive. No one has explained why an unelected communications expert became heavily involved in the decision making process. 

As for Cummings, he is simply disturbing. He is clearly incapable of considering that he may be wrong about anything. He frightens me. 

Apologies for waffling! 

Edit 

I just listened to a report on the Sunak immigration issue in which a reporter said that a large number of Tory MPs consider Johnson and Farage to be the dream ticket for next year's election. I'm lost for words..... 

What has been happening at the inquiry in the last few days has been the module into what happened at the top level of government. Which, although necessary, given that every major decision was taken by politicians, was bound to be partly accusatory and back-covering. But that ended today. I don't know what the other modules are but quite possibly one will be focused on the science.