England V Italy

[Robert N. LiM 4,511]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

I really don't know what to make of International football. Maybe I'm too harsh on Southgate.

Everyone seems too harsh on Southgate to me. He's England's most successful coach since 1966. Is he perfect? No. But he's better than everyone else who's done the job in my lifetime.

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Have all the smaller nations diluted it?

The enlargement of tournaments has certainly taken all the jeopardy out of qualification. I can't remember the last England game I watched outside a major tournament.

 

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Here is the England team from the 2004 World Cup. To me, it looks a far better team than last nights, but it disappointed all the time.

This is why I think the criticism of Southgate is over the top. He got a team with Pickford, Maguire, Phillips and Henderson to the SFs of the World Cup and the final of the Euros. Yes, we've got a lot of good players competing for positions in the three behind the centre-forward, and Kane is world-class, but other than that it's a workmanlike team. Like others, I wouldn't mind him taking the handbrake off, and there are big questions about his in-game management and use of subs, but there's no way this is the best group of England players in my lifetime, yet it is the most successful.

In that light, to assume another (usually unspecified) coach would improve the team is a massive leap of faith.

Mind you, given how good Bellingham looks, it's not unreasonable for expectations to go up... Best England player since Gazza?

[Ken Hairy 3,781]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

I think they are pretty average to be honest. They were probably worse in 2018 when they didn't qualify for the World Cup.

I'm more commenting on the general refusal to give Southgate any credit. Italy may not be great but historically England lost these sort of games.

I give Southgate credit for changing the clique mentality within the squad, he's clearly a good man motivator, but he's been found lacking tactically when it really matters.

I've long maintained it wouldn't have even taken a particularly skilled manager to have won a trophy with this squad, not just because of the quality we currently have but it's almost that perfect storm where so many of the big nations are so average right now.

I actually think Southgate would have made a good assistant manager with the national squad, but alongside someone who reads the game better than he does. 

If Southgate left right now I don't see any Premier side touting his services and not many of the better Championship ones either, would the reaction be positive if it was announced he was taking over here? I'd suggest not.

[Ken Hairy 3,781]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

I really don't know what to make of International football. Maybe I'm too harsh on Southgate. Or is International football not as good as it used to be? Have all the smaller nations diluted it?

Here is the England team from the 2004 World Cup. To me, it looks a far better team than last nights, but it disappointed all the time.

James

Neville Terry Campbell Cole

Beckham Gerrard Lampard Scholes

Rooney Owen

 

I think the big difference is look at Italy, Germany, Argentina, Brazil etc now compared to then only the French can really say they're better now. 

I'd wager a considerable amount of money thar England squad wins last years world cup, hypothetical of course and no way to prove it 

[king canary 7,680]

2 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

I think the big difference is look at Italy, Germany, Argentina, Brazil etc now compared to then only the French can really say they're better now. 

I'd wager a considerable amount of money thar England squad wins last years world cup, hypothetical of course and no way to prove it 

Argentina are definitely better than they were in 2006 and that doesn't factor in the improvement of nations who were poor in 2006- teams like Croatia, Belgium, Portugal, Uruguay are all significantly improved.

[Ken Hairy 3,781]

Argentina, Messi aside are fairly average right now, there's definitely been better Argie sides that won nothing. The fact they're World Champions backs up the point I'm making.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Ken Hairy

[king canary 7,680]

17 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Argentina, Messi aside are fairly average right now, there's definitely been better Argie sides that won nothing. The fact they're World Champions backs up the point I'm making.

I just disagree I guess.

That Argentina side has a lot of very good players to support Messi, much better than 2006 in my view.

Sure there have been better Argentina sides but this one is the best of recent memory.

[Ken Hairy 3,781]

12 minutes ago, king canary said:

I just disagree I guess.

That Argentina side has a lot of very good players to support Messi, much better than 2006 in my view.

Sure there have been better Argentina sides but this one is the best of recent memory.

Footballs all about opinions Kingy 👍

[chicken 2,649]

5 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

I really don't know what to make of International football. Maybe I'm too harsh on Southgate. Or is International football not as good as it used to be? Have all the smaller nations diluted it?

Here is the England team from the 2004 World Cup. To me, it looks a far better team than last nights, but it disappointed all the time.

James

Neville Terry Campbell Cole

Beckham Gerrard Lampard Scholes

Rooney Owen

 

IMHO the biggest issue we have as a nation is our press. They built that team up to be world beaters but the evidence was pretty slim, and when they didn't deliver they were derided. Most of the time that squad was misused too.

Gerrard's best position was, for me, the same role Yaya Toure played. Deep, with a license to get forward. Lampard was consistent but I'm never sure he was really quite as good as the tabloids wanted him to be. Scholes was misused often. Beckham wasn't fast, nor was he particularly skilful, but his delivery was outstanding.

Neville was another you could say was steady but without being amazing, he wasn't particularly good going forward. Certainly not up there with the very best at the time.

James always had a calamity in him. He just happened to be the best at the time, but even then he wasn't in his prime.

Do I think football is not as good as it used to be? I think it's over-coached. We have a lot of chess like games with seemingly fewer and fewer players that have that genuine ability to do something very different. People say that of the likes of Grealish, but I don't see anything particularly special. He has tricks and a bit of pace but never seems to quite know what it is he is trying to conjure up. Compare that to Gazza, Messi, Zidane etc. Or how Scholes could suddenly find a pin-point ball out of nowhere and cut a team in half.

[Nuff Said 5,178]

44 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Footballs all about opinions Kingy 👍

Not goals? I’ve had it wrong all these years.