Do Russians know what they are fighting for?

[Herman 9,838]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The EU was heavily derided by leave, of course, but it was never remotely portrayed as an outside entity set on the subjugation and destruction of the UK as is the portrayal of 'the West' in Russia. There's not one iota of evidence suggesting that is/was a remotely popular view in the UK.

 

35 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

I can only disagree. 

Yes, me too. Birdie luckily didn't read some of the stuff spouted by Moy and Jools at the time (and they weren't on their own.)

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

59 minutes ago, Herman said:

 

Yes, me too. Birdie luckily didn't read some of the stuff spouted by Moy and Jools at the time (and they weren't on their own.)

I don't know how many of you do go to Carrow Road, but you need to consider that a huge chunk of the people surrounding you in the stands there will have voted to leave. Think on that while you persist with these daft hyperbolic generalisations and simplifications.

Edited January 29, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

22 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I don't know how many of you do go to Carrow Road, but you need to consider that a huge chunk of the people surrounding you in the stands there will have voted to leave. Think on that while you persist with these daft hyperbolic generalisations and simplifications.

Only just over half.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

18 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Only just over half.

Many thousands of the 27,000 capacity. Chances are there'll be leave voters metres away from remain voters in all directions all cheering the same team, all commemorating Amber Sheehy on her tragic death.

These silly statements are talking about them along with the odd figure like Jools and whoever else was campaigning on forums. All this othering and dehumanisation because you didn't like what they chose and the personal inconvenience the choice has created for you in a peaceful and lawful departure from a supranational organisation.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[benchwarmer 625]

43 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I don't know how many of you do go to Carrow Road, but you need to consider that a huge chunk of the people surrounding you in the stands there will have voted to leave. Think on that while you persist with these daft hyperbolic generalisations and simplifications.

As a matter of fact I wasn't too pleased when Delia went on the Remain campaign trail wearing her City scarf, for precisely that reason. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by benchwarmer

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

22 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

As a matter of fact I wasn't too pleased when Delia went on the Remain campaign trail wearing her City scarf, for precisely that reason. 

But why not? Bottom line is both people who voted leave and remain are all still part of the same community(ies), clubs, and so on as before; in my view it's good to have reminders of that sort of thing instead of pursuing an urge to other people you don't agree with politically in processing your own issues.

[Herman 9,838]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I don't know how many of you do go to Carrow Road, but you need to consider that a huge chunk of the people surrounding you in the stands there will have voted to leave. Think on that while you persist with these daft hyperbolic generalisations and simplifications.

Some of the animosity shown to remain voters is going to take a long time to forgive, especially for me. I blame the scumbag politicians for dividing our country so much but there were a lot of idiots willing to jump in two footed.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

3 minutes ago, Herman said:

Some of the animosity shown to remain voters is going to take a long time to forgive, especially for me. I blame the scumbag politicians for dividing our country so much but there were a lot of idiots willing to jump in two footed.

Forgive them for they know not what they do...

Forgiveness is much more about the healing of the person doing the forgiving than the person/people being forgiven. But let's face it, we're not talking about specific people here; we're talking about a vague notion of a  massive group of people based on voting decisions six years ago.

[benchwarmer 625]

4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The EU was heavily derided by leave, of course, but it was never remotely portrayed as an outside entity set on the subjugation and destruction of the UK as is the portrayal of 'the West' in Russia. There's not one iota of evidence suggesting that is/was a remotely popular view in the UK.

So why was it that Remain voters were branded as traitors by the Leave campaign?

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

The original question is do the Russians know what they are fighting for?

Obviously the answer is yes even if they have been completely misled and allowed ignorance and base nationalistic emotions to blind them to the truths.

That story is as old as time .. another elected leader in Germany last century pulled off the same trick (oddly many claimed later they didn't know)

Any body who doesn't agree with them usually gets called traitors, enemies of the people and so on as in Russia today.  Ring any bells?

Edited January 29, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

27 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

So why was it that Remain voters were branded as traitors by the Leave campaign?

Did all leave voters brand remain voters as traitors. Did all remain voters brand leave voters as stupid bigoted gammon?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

46 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

The original question is do the Russians know what they are fighting for?

Obviously the answer is yes even if they have been completely misled and allowed ignorance and base nationalistic emotions to blind them to the truths.

That story is as old as time .. another elected leader in Germany last century pulled off the same trick (oddly many claimed later they didn't know)

Any body who doesn't agree with them usually gets called traitors, enemies of the people and so on as in Russia today.  Ring any bells?

It's hardly prevalent, and nobody gets arrested for complaining about Brexit, unlike in Russia, where you actually are arrested and officially considered a traitor for challenging the invasion.

This determination to try and pigeon hole leave voters really doesn't do you any credit. Maybe you should take the time to have a look through that Kent Uni document if you genuinely want to understand what happened rather than just reinforce your own narrative on what happened. I'll throw in the mix that of the leave voters I know, one was my cousin who fostered Afghan refugees, one was a Brummy NHS statistician of Indian descent, and one was a London-based doctor of Pakistani descent. I also know a fair number of white middle class people who voted for it, as i know white middle class people who voted against it.

Edit: Okay, myabe the determination to try and pigeon hole leave voters does you credit with the other people who all want to pigeon hole them the same way for the same reasons, but in the end it doesn't get any of you anywhere.

Edited January 29, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,838]

8 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Did all leave voters brand remain voters as traitors. Did all remain voters brand leave voters as stupid bigoted gammon?

Are you expecting us to be nice to a load of people that put their faith in Johnson and Farage, ate up the biggest load of pony that politicians have ever fed them and helped trash our country, its economy and reputation?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Are you expecting us to be nice to a load of people that put their faith in Johnson and Farage, ate up the biggest load of pony that politicians have ever fed them and helped trash our country, its economy and reputation?

I can think of one person on the non-football side who regularly asserts they did exactly what you state here - by your own estimation - and complains about having done so and now blame those same politicians. They seem to be well-accepted and forgiven in specific terms.

The question is, is that apparent forgiveness actually forgiveness for having done something so inexcusable that you're collectively still going on about it six years later, bringing it into unrelated threads, even on the football side on occasion, or is it more tolerance for providing a useful example to support the thrust of your wider generalisations?

I've already given specific examples of the British Indian statistician, the British Pakistani doctor, who quite possibily will actually get what they want out of Brexit re easier movement for extended family, who have as much contributed to the outcome of the referendum who don't fit the mould of your generalised accusations, but in principle should be lumped into your narrative of why the leave vote happened as people who did put their cross in the wrong box.

From my own personal point of view, those people who voted leave have resulted in the EU taking away the individual right of personal friends of mine to continue serving on local councils here in France, my own right to vote in local elections, forced me to go to the French government to get permission to carry on living here and get fingerprinted like a criminal in doing so, and forced me to fill out a customs declaration to send back forgotten clothes to my sister. I've literally had individual rights stripped from me that I was exercising and enjoying on the back of this. I did my best to try and help campaigning online to get a change of direction in the years after the invocation of article 50 where it was still possible to cancel the whole thing and failed. And yet I can still accept and move on from it, because it's done, which has been the case for the last 6 years now. So with that in mind, given that I can find it in myself to accept that I disagree with their votes without feeling the need to lump them in with Russian plebs in a quasi dictatorship to make me feel better, without expecting anything of you from my own point of view, I think you should ask yourself whether you shouldn't be trying harder to move on given that it's pointless not to.

Edited January 30, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[benchwarmer 625]

9 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Did all leave voters brand remain voters as traitors. Did all remain voters brand leave voters as stupid bigoted gammon?

No of course not, but it was a narrative running right through the Leave campaign. 

 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

1 minute ago, benchwarmer said:

No of course not, but it was a narrative running right through the Leave campaign. 

 

 

The leave campaign is not leave voters.

[benchwarmer 625]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The leave campaign is not leave voters.

You are deliberately missing the point my trolling friend.

This discussion is closed.

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

10 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's hardly prevalent, and nobody gets arrested for complaining about Brexit, unlike in Russia, where you actually are arrested and officially considered a traitor for challenging the invasion.

This determination to try and pigeon hole leave voters really doesn't do you any credit. Maybe you should take the time to have a look through that Kent Uni document if you genuinely want to understand what happened rather than just reinforce your own narrative on what happened. I'll throw in the mix that of the leave voters I know, one was my cousin who fostered Afghan refugees, one was a Brummy NHS statistician of Indian descent, and one was a London-based doctor of Pakistani descent. I also know a fair number of white middle class people who voted for it, as i know white middle class people who voted against it.

Edit: Okay, myabe the determination to try and pigeon hole leave voters does you credit with the other people who all want to pigeon hole them the same way for the same reasons, but in the end it doesn't get any of you anywhere.

You are a fool LYB as I'm sure you've been told many times. You simply fail to comprehend what is said and leap to black and white conclusions on peoples positions which then gets you into endless arguments with all and sundry trying to explain or enlarge on what was obvious, and for most, needed no further explanation. God help 'Remain' if you argued for them! You seem to get into endless pointless arguments on the football threads too.

Elsewhere I used the Laurel & Hardy quip  'Another fine mess, Stanley' on our governments most recent calamity. It doesn't literally mean that I think everything in a Laurel and Hardy film is present in our government or indeed the Tory party. You can only take the analogy (or allegory) so far.

@BW original comment that 'had a grain of truth' simply passed you by. Equally my assertion that the Russian population is likely no different in make-up to ours or that in the US  - as being capable being manipulated by bad actors (hence I don't actually directly blame many of the misled and likely poorly educated Russian people) and that some people are indeed more gullible than others to nationalistic nonsense. As per BW many of The 'Vox pops' of the Russians were indeed spookily similar to MAGA or Kipper fundamentalists far removed from factual, on the ground reality.

In the studies, the word that is used and I use is correlate. That doesn't mean all voters either way fit neatly into any of the boxes - but it is a statistical trend. Your anecdotes are just that - anecdotes. They are in themselves meaningless (although it was established and has been known for years that certain non-EU immigrant groups were indeed more Brexity as they saw it as a means to make it easier for their compatriots to immigrant to the UK - as has now been born out.) However, pointing out the correlations seems to cause you to enter a defensive meltdown. 

For the record most Remainers were not Europhiles - the EU was/is far from perfect (what is?) but on balance was seen as the safer logical bet. That the Leave campaigns went off with a whole set of untruths (£350M, 80M Turks etc) only confirmed that they were hollow toe rags appealing to the  - what would you call it? - section of the population? I see even today a few pages back the EU described a venal, corrupt etc.

Finally, I'll channel my inner Kipper. I see you live in France - is that friend or foe (a phrase used by Truss playing to her ERG/Kipper base). QED as you like to say. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

2 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

You are deliberately missing the point my trolling friend.

This discussion is closed.

It's not that I'm missing the point; you're all missing the point as to why your points are both pointless and overly generalised.

Trolling is deliberately winding people up for the hell of it, which is not my intent. Your problem is you wind yourselves up for no purpose.

Edited January 30, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

12 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's hardly prevalent, and nobody gets arrested for complaining about Brexit, unlike in Russia, where you actually are arrested and officially considered a traitor for challenging the invasion.

Is this a joke??

People most definitely have been arrested for protesting about Brexit, and in much bigger numbers for protesting about Government hypocrisy and total inaction re the Climate Crisis plus several other issues - to which the Government have responded by introducing a bill which aims to shut down protest altogether.

The only thing we have over Russia is that our legal system is not (yet) entirely compliant with the Government's wishes and for the most part adheres to the law of the land rather than the diktats that the Government try to hand down, although even protection that is being eroded by a corrupt Government with a large majority which it is using to reshape our institutions into forms which suit them better.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

18 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Is this a joke??

 

People most definitely have been arrested for protesting about Brexit, and in much bigger numbers for protesting about Government hypocrisy and total inaction re the Climate Crisis plus several other issues - to which the Government have responded by introducing a bill which aims to shut down protest altogether.

 

The only thing we have over Russia is that our legal system is not (yet) entirely compliant with the Government's wishes and for the most part adheres to the law of the land rather than the diktats that the Government try to hand down, although even protection that is being eroded by a corrupt Government with a large majority which it is using to reshape our institutions into forms which suit them better.

 

Only on civil unrest grounds, not on grounds of being traitors to the state or anything due to political beliefs.

Likening the UK to Putin's Russia just makes you all sound nuts.

If you're really that concerned about individual political parties having too much power to tweak the system in their favour in the UK, maybe you should start taking more of an interest in actual current campaigns, like that pursuing electoral reform to a proportional system for the House of Commons that reduce the opportunity for any single party to wield power on its own instead of recycling an argument over something that is a fait accompli.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

You are a fool LYB as I'm sure you've been told many times. You simply fail to comprehend what is said and leap to black and white conclusions on peoples positions which then gets you into endless arguments with all and sundry trying to explain or enlarge on what was obvious, and for most, needed no further explanation. God help 'Remain' if you argued for them! You seem to get into endless pointless arguments on the football threads too.

Elsewhere I used the Laurel & Hardy quip  'Another fine mess, Stanley' on our governments most recent calamity. It doesn't literally mean that I think everything in a Laurel and Hardy film is present in our government or indeed the Tory party. You can only take the analogy (or allegory) so far.

@BW original comment that 'had a grain of truth' simply passed you by. Equally my assertion that the Russian population is likely no different in make-up to ours or that in the US  - as being capable being manipulated by bad actors (hence I don't actually directly blame many of the misled and likely poorly educated Russian people) and that some people are indeed more gullible than others to nationalistic nonsense. As per BW many of The 'Vox pops' of the Russians were indeed spookily similar to MAGA or Kipper fundamentalists far removed from factual, on the ground reality.

In the studies, the word that is used and I use is correlate. That doesn't mean all voters either way fit neatly into any of the boxes - but it is a statistical trend. Your anecdotes are just that - anecdotes. They are in themselves meaningless (although it was established and has been known for years that certain non-EU immigrant groups were indeed more Brexity as they saw it as a means to make it easier for their compatriots to immigrant to the UK - as has now been born out.) However, pointing out the correlations seems to cause you to enter a defensive meltdown. 

For the record most Remainers were not Europhiles - the EU was/is far from perfect (what is?) but on balance was seen as the safer logical bet. That the Leave campaigns went off with a whole set of untruths (£350M, 80M Turks etc) only confirmed that they were hollow toe rags appealing to the  - what would you call it? - section of the population? I see even today a few pages back the EU described a venal, corrupt etc.

Finally, I'll channel my inner Kipper. I see you live in France - is that friend or foe (a phrase used by Truss playing to her ERG/Kipper base). QED as you like to say. 

Let the record show that yet again it's not me initiating the personal insults here, even though somehow I always seem to be alone in being criticised if I let myself down by responding in kind.

Black and white conclusions? Sorry, but you started a thread last week using a study from the University of Kent to support a hypothesis that the problem with Brexiteers is that they're old and dim. You admitted yourself you hadn't actually read the study and simply took it on trust that the study said what someone else said it did. But all this is supposedly in a quest to 'understand' what happened six years ago at the referendum.

That study from the University of Kent itself actually painted a very nuanced dive into the myriad motivations of the coalition of the disaffected that rejected the status quo of EU membership supported by most of the political establishment outside of some headbangers on the Conservative back benches.

The fact that most Russians make supportive noises of Putin is a mix of fear for some who are aware of the sanctions they'll face for speaking out, but also for many it's simply trust in the establishment backed by a media environment where anything contesting the government narrative is literally illegal.

The UK still has an assortment of media outlets offering different takes on things; nobody is forced to accept any one narrative on what's going on regarding anything.

Additionally, it should be noted that many Brexiteers were and are profoundly distrustful of the state to the point of paranoia, believing that the state itself, including both main parties, have been complicit in passing more and more competences to the EU since the UK joined in the 70s. This was a paranoia used to good effect by Farage in influencing the Conservative party. This was illustrated well by the number of people who insisted on taking their own pens to voting booths, insisting they believed their own marks would be rubbed out and replaced if they used the provided pencils!

In conclusion, the notion that Brexiteers as a homogenous collective are like the ordinary Russian on the street in Moscow is utter nonsense as well as being irrelevant to the OP.

Edited January 30, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,838]

I think I will stick with my original conclusion about brexiters, no matter how many words you can and will write. Cheers. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

I think I will stick with my original conclusion about brexiters, no matter how many words you can and will write. Cheers. 

Fine. Just don't kid yourself you're being rational or reasonable.

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

38 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That study from the University of Kent itself actually painted a very nuanced dive into the myriad motivations of the coalition of the disaffected that rejected the status quo of EU membership supported by most of the political establishment outside of some headbangers on the Conservative back benches.

You are tiring.

The Kent paper  (which is actually trying to model the vote) actually says pretty much that age and education were significant (even when broken down or controlled for in isolation into the papers various model sub-categories) i.e.

"Other forces also were working further back in the causal chain. Models for costbenefit calculations and risk assessments documented the strong influence of negative attitudes towards immigration, as well as effects of the perceived loss of economic sovereignty and national identities. Controlling for these several factors, age mattered as well, with younger people being significantly more likely to emphasize the risks of Brexit."

or

"Finally, the performance of the socio-demographic characteristics is noteworthy. As Table 3 documents, university educated people and those in higher social grades were significantly less likely to see the benefits of leaving in the EU than were other people. In contrast, older voters were more likely to judge that Brexit would have benefits by helping to control immigration and reducing the threat of terrorism. Gender differences in benefit-cost assessments were small and insignificant."

What the paper's model didn't do although it could do was to simply directly correlate age or education as factor of themselves with the vote but more the issues behind that broader result (for various demographics) that was and is already well established. I think you've allowed yourself to be overwhelmed with the number of narrower factors it modelled (and yes there were many) into its  'cues' (perceptions of Farage/Cameron by example) which of course also correlates with age/education.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

Just now, Yellow Fever said:

You are tiring.

The Kent paper  (which is actually trying to model the vote) actually says pretty much that age and education were significant (even when broken down or controlled for in isolation into the papers various model sub-categories) i.e.

"Other forces also were working further back in the causal chain. Models for costbenefit calculations and risk assessments documented the strong influence of negative attitudes towards immigration, as well as effects of the perceived loss of economic sovereignty and national identities. Controlling for these several factors, age mattered as well, with younger people being significantly more likely to emphasize the risks of Brexit."

or

"Finally, the performance of the socio-demographic characteristics is noteworthy. As Table 3 documents, university educated people and those in higher social grades were significantly less likely to see the benefits of leaving in the EU than were other people. In contrast, older voters were more likely to judge that Brexit would have benefits by helping to control immigration and reducing the threat of terrorism. Gender differences in benefit-cost assessments were small and insignificant."

What the paper's model didn't do although it could do was to simply directly correlate age or education as factor of themselves with the vote but more the issues behind that broader result (for various demographics) that was and is already well established. I think you've allowed yourself to be overwhelmed with the number of narrower factors it modelled (and yes there were many) into its  'cues' (perceptions of Farage/Cameron by example) which of course also correlates with age/education.

 

I'm tiring?

Good to see you've actually looked at it, but yet again it's clear you're only looking at it in terms of picking out bits to suit your simplistic narratives to pigeon hole millions and millions of people in the British population.

Whatever may or may not have been the attitudes and characteristics of leave voters have no absolutely no bearing on people's attitudes in Russia towards the invasion in Ukraine. The assertion was at best highly debatable in its own right, yet somehow it's expected be simply accepted to throw this sort of irrelevant opinion cast as fact into an unrelated thread wherever those still obsessing on the subject happen to fancy, with anyone who takes issue with it being accused of trolling instead of the people who threw the irrelevances in in the first place. 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'm tiring?

Good to see you've actually looked at it, but yet again it's clear you're only looking at it in terms of picking out bits to suit your simplistic narratives to pigeon hole millions and millions of people in the British population.

Whatever may or may not have been the attitudes and characteristics of leave voters have no absolutely no bearing on people's attitudes in Russia towards the invasion in Ukraine. The assertion was at best highly debatable in its own right, yet somehow it's expected be simply accepted to throw this sort of irrelevant opinion cast as fact into an unrelated thread wherever those still obsessing on the subject happen to fancy, with anyone who takes issue with it being accused of trolling instead of the people who threw the irrelevances in in the first place. 

 

I've tried several times to get you back to the original comment - but no you wish to keep arguing as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - as opposed to the bigger picture as to if you believe in angels at all..  Some people in Russia, the US and yes here are easily led and manipulated. Hence the Vox pops.

As to Brexit (which wasn't the argument here at all)  - age and education were the best predictors of how people voted whatever the further reasons behind that. I don't think any of that is contentious.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

On 27/01/2023 at 16:24, benchwarmer said:

Reminds me spookily of the kind of response you get when you ask Brexiteers what they voted for. 

 

 

On 27/01/2023 at 16:31, Yellow Fever said:

You're right but you'll need to duck and weave now. Noticeably a few of the younger interviewees were much more astute.

Just a reminder of where you guys, not me, took it off topic in the first place. You don't get to pick and choose where it may or may not go back on topic if you choose to bring in irrelevant arguments in the first place once you get tired of your contentious points being challenged.

Edited January 30, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[TheGunnShow 6,023]

Was the Russian media and political landscape this muzzled under Yeltsin?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Was the Russian media and political landscape this muzzled under Yeltsin?

At the time of Yeltsin, Russian interests were put to the forefront. The world rejoiced at the fall of the Soviet Union and Yeltsin's popularity with Russians and his desire to turn it from red to blue.

Putin told us a long time ago that he felt Russian interests were no longer important to the World and that he was being ignored. How true I have no idea but something went wrong badly with Russian relationship with NATO in particular. Whether it was Cheney and his hawkish attitude to all things not US could well be a reason.