Do Russians know what they are fighting for?

[cambridgeshire canary 6,751]

God this entire channel is depressing.

 

[benchwarmer 625]

49 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

God this entire channel is depressing.

 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

53 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

God this entire channel is depressing.

 

Very sad yes. An excuse might be what would you expect if you took a camera out onto the street and interviewed even rational people in a country ruled by fear, of saying the wrong thing. It's also of course an 'edited' video with it's own mandate!

However, many people are actually the same all over world even here. Ignorance, fuelled by stupidity and targeted messages (with or without censorship) & often wrapped in a flag can cause many with weak minds to believe anything. In war it's called propaganda. January 6th in Washington comes to mind as well as events closer to home.

Sadly many of 'conscription' age will die in ignorance.  Those more elderly should really know better (I note a lot western cars on the roads).

Edit - Actually some sensible (younger) balanced individuals towards the end as well!

Edited January 27, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[benchwarmer 625]

Reminds me spookily of the kind of response you get when you ask Brexiteers what they voted for. 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by benchwarmer

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

6 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

Reminds me spookily of the kind of response you get when you ask Brexiteers what they voted for. 

 

You're right but you'll need to duck and weave now. Noticeably a few of the younger interviewees were much more astute.

[horsefly 4,308]

Let's not forget that hundreds of thousands of young people fled the country because they refused to fight in Putin's insane war.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

OK. Lets compare the two

 

[Indy 3,307]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

OK. Lets compare the two

 

Good grief, it’s Uncle Alberts American Cousin!

[horsefly 4,308]

4 minutes ago, Indy said:

Good grief, it’s Uncle Alberts American Cousin!

Albert clearly got all the brains

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

18 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

Reminds me spookily of the kind of response you get when you ask Brexiteers what they voted for. 

 

These guys believe it's right because Russia's always right and the rest of the world wants to see Russia fail; Brexiteers believed in it because they believed Britain had been making bad choices since the 70s by giving too much authority voluntarily to another body without the explicit consent of the people. That's a massive difference.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

13 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

These guys believe it's right because Russia's always right and the rest of the world wants to see Russia fail; Brexiteers believed in it because they believed Britain had been making bad choices since the 70s by giving too much authority voluntarily to another body without the explicit consent of the people. That's a massive difference.

 

But we still have the Lords and Qangos and of course Government advisers.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

But we still have the Lords and Qangos and of course Government advisers.

There'd be little or no public pushback to the Lords being abolished. As for Quangos and government advisers, both are in the gift of elected politicians to commission to help them, but the final say is with the elected politicians; it's still the elected politicians ultimately responsible for making the decisions and who are accountable for the decisions.

[Herman 9,792]

28 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

These guys believe it's right because Russia's always right and the rest of the world wants to see Russia fail; Brexiteers believed in it because they believed Britain had been making bad choices since the 70s by giving too much authority voluntarily to another body without the explicit consent of the people. That's a massive difference.

 

Well the people did keep voting for the governments that were changing our relationships within Europe. It's a flawed democracy but it was with the consent of the people. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

22 minutes ago, Herman said:

Well the people did keep voting for the governments that were changing our relationships within Europe. It's a flawed democracy but it was with the consent of the people. 

Strictly in terms of the theory of representative democracy, that's true, but allowing the EU to assume more and more parliamentary competences seldom involved much in the way of public involvement, or even the suggestion of doing so in manifestos that could be pointed at as a mandate for it.

At various points, all three of the Conservatives, Lib Dems, and Labour have put forward the possibility of the public having a say on how our relationship with Europe has progressed. Blair stated that the public would get to vote on the Lisbon Treaty, which he never delivered, and the Lib Dems did argue for something akin to the EU referendum we had before 2010 when it would have been more likely to have given the right answer.

Edit: The flaws in our democracy and loss of confidence in the functioning of our own democracy compounded the issues at the heart of our relationship with the EU. This is why I believe we need massive democratic reform of our own parliamentary system beyond what either of the two main parties is willing to offer.

Edited January 28, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

55 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There'd be little or no public pushback to the Lords being abolished. As for Quangos and government advisers, both are in the gift of elected politicians to commission to help them, but the final say is with the elected politicians; it's still the elected politicians ultimately responsible for making the decisions and who are accountable for the decisions.

I have yet to hear a politician who took responsibility. We do not need advisers. They do not have the right to change policy. A manifesto is policy not someone like ****'s opinion.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

I have yet to hear a politician who took responsibility. We do not need advisers. They do not have the right to change policy. A manifesto is policy not someone like ****'s opinion.

Not saying they don't do all they can to dodge responsibility and accountability/pass the buck, but in the final analysis they are accountable and responsible to the public!

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

These guys believe it's right because Russia's always right and the rest of the world wants to see Russia fail; Brexiteers believed in it because they believed Britain had been making bad choices since the 70s by giving too much authority voluntarily to another body without the explicit consent of the people. That's a massive difference.

 

I think you're missing the core of BW's point.

I for one don't believe the Russian population is any different in it's 'wisdom' or IQ than ours.

It's frankly the unquestioning closed-mind mindset (even when presented with myth busting facts), steeped in an assumed myth, harking back to 'super-power' days fed by a targeted narrative wrapped in a flag that paints all the issues as somebodies else's fault. Us and them. Of course they'll find some reason or excuse to give a veneer or respectability to their their view but its never really rational when you dig down into it.

Am I talking about many of Russians on the clip -  or many of 'Brexiteers' ?

I note later you talk about referendums on the Lisbon treaty and whatever - was there one on joining NATO - or on signing up to the ECHR (often confused with the EU but not). Both of these are far more significant compromises of 'sovereignty' than the EU ever was even to the point of going to war. I won't even mention USAF (nuclear) bases here or indeed rendition abuses.

Its all the same, gullible people - easily led by those with alternative agendas.

The solution for all is an open informed world and education, education and education.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

35 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think you're missing the core of BW's point.

I for one don't believe the Russian population is any different in it's 'wisdom' or IQ than ours.

It's frankly the unquestioning closed-mind mindset (even when presented with myth busting facts), steeped in an assumed myth, harking back to 'super-power' days fed by a targeted narrative wrapped in a flag that paints all the issues as somebodies else's fault. Us and them. Of course they'll find some reason or excuse to give a veneer or respectability to their their view but its never really rational when you dig down into it.

Am I talking about many of Russians on the clip -  or many of 'Brexiteers' ?

I note later you talk about referendums on the Lisbon treaty and whatever - was there one on joining NATO - or on signing up to the ECHR (often confused with the EU but not). Both of these are far more significant compromises of 'sovereignty' than the EU ever was even to the point of going to war. I won't even mention USAF (nuclear) bases here or indeed rendition abuses.

Its all the same, gullible people - easily led by those with alternative agendas.

The solution for all is an open informed world and education, education and education.

NATO is not comparable to the EU. It is only relevant in terms of UK foreign policy; it assumes no competences from parliament regarding legislation the day-to-day running of the United Kingdom, which was the case with the EU.

The other fundamental flaw in the comparison is, whereas one can debate the wisdom of the decision to leave the EU, the legitimacy of a democratic right for the UK to make the decision to leave the EU if it so wished is beyond doubt. This is not the case with Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

In some ways, I sympathise more with the Russian people, as people living under a quasi totalitarian regime with much more restricted access to accurate information, than I do people who voted for Brexit and now wish they hadn't; that choice they made was their own to make and was respected. The facts were available to everybody if they chose to make the effort to think for themselves. Equally, people like yourself should accept their right to make that decision in our democratic society and respect that people like you (and me) were responsible for failing to make better arguments to win people over.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

25 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Equally, people like yourself should accept their right to make that decision in our democratic society and respect that people like you (and me) were responsible for failing to make better arguments to win people over.

You're off target again. Nowt to do with the decision people made - BW was comparing some of closed Russian mind sets in the clip with some of the equally closed mindset here. Same sort of people really. Nothing to do with accepting or otherwise the 'decision' - that just seems to be you adding that in.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

Just now, Yellow Fever said:

You're off target again. Nowt to do with the decision people made - BW was comparing some of closed Russian mind sets in the clip with some of the equally closed mindset here. Same sort of people really. Nothing to do with accepting or otherwise the 'decision' - that just seems to be you adding that in.

It's everything to do with it: You wouldn't be going on and on about the gullibility of Brexit voters years later and comparing them to people at the bottom of the pile in Russia if the result of the referendum had been 52-48 in favour of remain.

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's everything to do with it: You wouldn't be going on and on about the gullibility of Brexit voters years later and comparing them to people at the bottom of the pile in Russia if the result of the referendum had been 52-48 in favour of remain.

I was only agreeing with BW's narrow point - nothing more. It was you that were trying to 'explain' or bring in any number of your own perceived Brexity issues to explain their numerous positions (I thought it was immigration etc).

Many of the more-open minded have since changed their mind as any poll shows - complaining they were 'had'.

As to what would of happened if Remain had won and then my views is simply mute but I doubt they would of changed. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

Just now, Yellow Fever said:

I was only agreeing with BW's narrow point - nothing more. It was you that were trying to 'explain' or bring in any number of your own perceived Brexity issues to explain their numerous positions (I thought it was immigration etc).

Many of the more-open minded have since changed their mind as any poll shows - complaining they were 'had'.

As to what would of happened if Remain had won and then my views is simply mute but I doubt they would of changed. 

It was more than just agreeing; you grabbed the ball and ran with it; the same applies to BW introducing his feelings about Brexit voters in a democracy on a thread about Russian attitudes in a dictatorship with massive censorship towards a genocidal war. This would not be at the forefront of his mind any more than yours if the referendum six years ago had been 52-48 for remain.

Horsefly's post on his experience in education bowled me over earlier on in how insightful it was regarding the distinction between intellect, willingness to learn, and also the part of those more gifted in encouraging a culture of celebrating learning and seeking information, regardless of intellect; the fixation of a lot of remainers on the gullibility/poor intellect of Brexiteers as an explanation for the referendum result simultaneously glosses over the actual failures of the remain campaign - from which there are lessons to learn - and reinforces the perceived division between the so-called intellectual elite and everybody else.

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

21 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It was more than just agreeing; you grabbed the ball and ran with it; the same applies to BW introducing his feelings about Brexit voters in a democracy on a thread about Russian attitudes in a dictatorship with massive censorship towards a genocidal war. This would not be at the forefront of his mind any more than yours if the referendum six years ago had been 52-48 for remain.

Horsefly's post on his experience in education bowled me over earlier on in how insightful it was regarding the distinction between intellect, willingness to learn, and also the part of those more gifted in encouraging a culture of celebrating learning and seeking information, regardless of intellect; the fixation of a lot of remainers on the gullibility/poor intellect of Brexiteers as an explanation for the referendum result simultaneously glosses over the actual failures of the remain campaign - from which there are lessons to learn - and reinforces the perceived division between the so-called intellectual elite and everybody else.

Perhaps you should read my original earlier post before BWs comment. Might be more informative for you. Actually it tried to understand and explain many of the Russian interviewees views (and even excuse) - I even compared them to the January 6th episode as those of similar blinkered (despite the evidence) mindset. People easily misled with a view that can't be challenged.

We can call a spade a spade with these insular Russians it appears; with Trumps 'it was stolen' Maga crowd, yet we can't see the same mindset in our own. Oddly, in the ROW they see the same exactly.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

5 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Perhaps you should read my original earlier post before BWs comment. Might be more informative for you. Actually it tried to understand and explain many of the Russian interviewees views (and even excuse) - I even compared them to the January 6th episode as those of similar blinkered (despite the evidence) mindset. People easily misled with a view that can't be challenged.

We can call a spade a spade with these insular Russians it appears; with Trumps 'it was stolen' Maga crowd, yet we can't see the same mindset in our own. Oddly, in the ROW they see the same exactly.

@cambridgeshire canarycan you change the thread title to ' Do Russians know what they are fighting for and in what way are they like Brexiteers?' to adapt it for some of your audience. Maybe also always add something to do with Brexit in to every thread you create in non-football because someone will always shoehorn it in somehow...

You can call the Russian populous what you like as with the MAGA crowd; they don't vote in the UK.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,792]

That's the sort of comment only a brexiter would come out with. Get him boys. 

[benchwarmer 625]

On 28/01/2023 at 12:58, littleyellowbirdie said:

It was more than just agreeing; you grabbed the ball and ran with it; the same applies to BW introducing his feelings about Brexit voters in a democracy on a thread about Russian attitudes in a dictatorship with massive censorship towards a genocidal war. This would not be at the forefront of his mind any more than yours if the referendum six years ago had been 52-48 for remain.

 

It was a throwaway remark containing a grain of truth, that's all.

Fear scrambles the wits of otherwise reasonably intelligent people, and the powerful - whether democratically elected or not - exploit it to the full. 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by benchwarmer

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

2 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

It was a throwaway remark containing a grain of truth, that's all.

Fear scrambles the wits of otherwise reasonably intelligent people, and the powerful - whether democratically elected or not - exploit it to the full. 

 

Still don't agree one section of voters in a democratic nation with a reasonable degree of freedom of speech is remotely comparable to vox pops under a genuinely tyrannical régime like Russia. It's just ridiculous.

[benchwarmer 625]

25 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Still don't agree one section of voters in a democratic nation with a reasonable degree of freedom of speech is remotely comparable to vox pops under a genuinely tyrannical régime like Russia. It's just ridiculous.

But they don't see it like that.  They've been led to believe that Putin is their friend and that the threat comes from outside. 

The Leave campaign used the same technique to demonise the EU as an external threat to UK 'sovereignty', whatever that might mean.

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by benchwarmer

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

10 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

But they don't see it like that.  They've been led to believe that Putin is their friend and that the threat comes from outside. 

The Leave campaign used the same technique to demonise the EU as an external threat to UK 'sovereignty', whatever that might mean.

 

 

 

The EU was heavily derided by leave, of course, but it was never remotely portrayed as an outside entity set on the subjugation and destruction of the UK as is the portrayal of 'the West' in Russia. There's not one iota of evidence suggesting that is/was a remotely popular view in the UK.

[benchwarmer 625]

24 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The EU was heavily derided by leave, of course, but it was never remotely portrayed as an outside entity set on the subjugation and destruction of the UK as is the portrayal of 'the West' in Russia. There's not one iota of evidence suggesting that is/was a remotely popular view in the UK.

I can only disagree.