Striving to make sense of the Ukraine war

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

1 minute ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

I'm sure that the UN rappoteur has been informed about these alleged war crimes, like he has reported on the collateral damage video, the corrupt Kenyan Government, the toxic waste dumping by Trafigura in Ivory coast, the US Army's guidelines for the treatment of Guantanamo detainees, the dubious business practices of Swiss bank Julius Baer and more.

NATO stated in 1997 era of detente that it would not expand into eastern Europe, just as the alleged war criminal who lied to Parliament, was elected by a landslide. they lied and refuse to engage with the idea of a comprehensive European security agreement.

The UN has been studiously ignored when it comes to our own accountability for war crimes, so what does that say about those baying for accountability for alleged war crimes in Ukraine? we don't like it up us, but are demanding to do it to others?

Face it, justice is not dispensed by secrecy and violence, the system is broken and the 0.3% voting for another Tory to serve us all with more punishment fear and war, do not speak for the 99.7% of us all.

The woman in charge has achieved nothing at education, nothing as environment minister, or as trade and export representative, she is a security service asset working to keep the establishment happy, she might even support a nuclear confrontation here in Europe and the world, whilst hardly understanding the Geography of eastern Europe.

 

You make lots of disjointed statements that seem to be criticisms, without any cohesive narrative other than excusing Russian war crimes that are happening daily now. Why do you like Russian war atrocities so much?

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

I can't help your lack of understanding, but why do you like our atrocities in Afghanistan and Iraq and in Libya and in Syria? did they ever attack us? what has the Taliban got to do with 9/11 that the US is withholding billions whilst children are starving ?

what the heck do you care about our arms ripping Yemen's apart? is that just jobs for the boys?

I do not like any atrocities and Putin is as guilty of them as we are, but if we want international law to be accountable, its got to be applicable to all UN countries and those who give the orders.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

17 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

I can't help your lack of understanding, but why do you like our atrocities in Afghanistan and Iraq and in Libya and in Syria? did they ever attack us? what has the Taliban got to do with 9/11 that the US is withholding billions whilst children are starving ?

what the heck do you care about our arms ripping Yemen's apart? is that just jobs for the boys?

I do not like any atrocities and Putin is as guilty of them as we are, but if we want international law to be accountable, its got to be applicable to all UN countries and those who give the orders.

Our troops in Afghanistan respected the Geneva convention in their actions. Many of the small number who didn't have been investigated, charged and convicted where appropriate by our own militaries and courts. 

Contrast that to what we're seeing from Russia,  prisoners of war killed by Russian troops, civilians targeted by Russia (mostly in regions they claim to be liberating), captive Ukranians videoed being castrated by Russian soldiers, unarmed security guards shot in the back by Russian soldiers. 

Your false equivalence marks you out as the very worst sort of cowardly, faceless scum imaginable. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 4,303]

49 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

keep your ad hominem coming, it says more about yourself than anybody else.

'those who sleep in a democracy will wake up in a dictatorship' ( Otto Gritschneder}

Excellent quote! Couldn't think of anything better to describe the transition from Yeltsin's nascent democracy to Putin's full-blown dictatorship

[Bort 34]

On 31/07/2022 at 13:38, horsefly said:

Yeltsin's nascent democracy

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1116380/

British Medical Journal, 1999 (hence the dodgy formatting)

[horsefly 4,303]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1116380/

British Medical Journal, 1999 (hence the dodgy formatting)

Perhaps you should consider the life expectancy of the political opponents of Putin, and all the innocent Ukrainian men, women, and children his armies have slaughtered.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

 

 

3 hours ago, Bort said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1116380/

British Medical Journal, 1999 (hence the dodgy formatting)

The Soviet union collapsed due to an economy destroyed by the determination to compete with the US in the arms race. It's no surprise that the fallout of that was coming through at the turn of the millenium. 

The tragedy of Putin is there wasn't even a coup; Yeltsin handed the reins to him. What a fool. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[kirku 1,334]

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2022/07/28/vladimir-putin-is-in-thrall-to-a-distinctive-brand-of-russian-fascism

[Bort 34]

53 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Perhaps you should consider the life expectancy of the political opponents of Putin, and all the innocent Ukrainian men, women, and children his armies have slaughtered.

Looking at the figures, there are currently ~400 political prisoners in Russia, and there have been around 12,000 civilian casualties in Ukraine since February (5000 dead, 7000 injured). For context, around 3500 civilians were killed in the Donbass between 2014 and 2022.

Not quite the five million lives effectively lost under Yeltsin's leadership is it? He's more indefensible than Putin, especially as he oversaw the enriching of the oligarchs in the first place - so please don't try to portray him as some kind of tragic figure who fought for "democracy".

[Bort 34]

1 minute ago, kirku said:

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2022/07/28/vladimir-putin-is-in-thrall-to-a-distinctive-brand-of-russian-fascism

Afraid I can't read that as I don't subscribe to the Economist, and have no wish to - as Lenin said, it's "a journal that speaks for the British millionaires" (now billionaires, I suppose!)

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

Just now, Bort said:

Not quite the five million lives effectively lost under Yeltsin's leadership is it? 

Wow. The false equivalences just get better and better. Actual war crimes are now equated to problems with healthcare and nutrition. 

[Bort 34]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

Wow. The false equivalences just get better and better. Actual war crimes are now equated to problems with healthcare and nutrition.

Makes no difference to the dead. Both situations preventable.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

2 hours ago, Bort said:

Makes no difference to the dead. Both situations preventable.

Well yeah. Deaths of Russians due to health care and nutrition failures could have been prevented by the Soviet Union not prioritising competing with the US over armaments it couldn't afford over the economy; war crimes committed by Russian soldiers invading Ukraine are definitely preventable by Russian soldiers not being brutal sadistic b4st4rds. 

All of the deaths are Russia's responsibility so hard to see what your point is other than it values the lives of its own people as little as foreigners. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Something about Thatcher saying they prefer guns over butter whereas we prefer butter over guns springs to mind. North Korean life expectancy isn't too great either, and that's another country with disproportionate military spending and a complete cult of personality going on.

Edited August 1, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

Found a bit of classic footage on reddit that really should have given the world a clue about Putin. 

This was in 2000, shortly after the Russian nuclear submarine, Kursk, had sunk. A grieving woman launched an angry tirade about the failure of the authorities. A woman quietly comes up behind her, sedates her with a syringe, and she collapses and is carried off. 

Naturally, the authorities terrorised her into denying she had been sedated, even though the damned syringe was visible in the shots of it happening. Even then, lying was the Russian governments answer to everything. 

She was saying: 

"What stupid decision did you take? How long is it going to last? Our sons are paid 50 euros a month and now they’re trapped in this tin can. What was the point of me raising my son? Do you have any children? You definitely don’t have any children! Why don’t you understand what I’m telling you? Who can understand us? Not you, the people of power. You don’t understand anything. You only think of fattening yourselves. Our sailors have nothing to live and often no work."

<injected with sedative>

"I’m tired of this bullsh1t. My husband was retiring after serving 25 years. Why? Never will I forgive you. Remove your epaulettes. You’re so afraid for your decorations. Remove them immediately and kill yourselves. We won’t leave you in peace.

<collapses and carried off>

That's how Putin, the tyrant that you champion, rolls. 

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Bort 34]

23 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Well yeah. Deaths of Russians due to health care and nutrition failures could have been prevented by the Soviet Union not prioritising competing with the US over armaments it couldn't afford over the economy; war crimes committed by Russian soldiers invading Ukraine are definitely preventable by Russian soldiers not being brutal sadistic b4st4rds. 

All of the deaths are Russia's responsibility so hard to see what your point is other than it values the lives of its own people as little as foreigners. 

Claiming that the rise in mortality in 1990s Russia can be attributed primarily to Soviet-era policy failures rather than the rampant privatisation and concentration of wealth brought about by market liberalisation is pretty delusional.

Even if I'm overly generous and pretend that's the case - I'm more than willing to give the succession of revisionist Soviet leaders post-Stalin (particularly Gorbachev) a share of the blame. They abandoned communist principles over time, and the Russian people eventually paid the price.

Also, if the Cold War arms race was the problem, surely the US bears some responsibility then? The Soviets wouldn't have needed to invest so much in their military if the Americans hadn't displayed such willingness to sabotage socialist movements at any given opportunity (see Korea, Guatemala, Cuba, Vietnam, Indonesia, Chile, Nicaragua, etc. etc.)

The sentiment of your final remark reminds me of Nazi anti-communist propaganda, which painted the Soviets as an insect-like Asiatic Horde that succeeded only through brutality rather than strategic or technological competence (which is patently nonsense). Unless you also see Russians as "Slavic Untermenschen", I suggest you reconsider that mentality.

[Bort 34]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's how Putin, the tyrant that you champion, rolls. 

Assuming this is aimed at me, it's a shame you feel the need to make things up.

I don't "champion" Putin at all - I'd be delighted if he were overthrown and imprisoned tomorrow, and replaced with a socialist leader.

What I also don't do, though, is buy into the narrative that Putin is some kind of unique evil on the world stage. Do you think the Russian invasion of Ukraine is any less forgiveable than the current American support for the military subjugation of Yemenis, Palestinians, or Somalis? Why is Biden barely held to account by Western media?

Why are George W. Bush and Tony Blair not on trial at The Hague for the Iraq War? Maybe one of the factors is this US federal law - signed by Bush himself - which means that situation could result in an invasion of the Netherlands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act

Sounds a bit like the behaviour of... dare I say it... a tyrant?

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

12 minutes ago, Bort said:

Assuming this is aimed at me, it's a shame you feel the need to make things up.

I don't "champion" Putin at all - I'd be delighted if he were overthrown and imprisoned tomorrow, and replaced with a socialist leader.

What I also don't do, though, is buy into the narrative that Putin is some kind of unique evil on the world stage. Do you think the Russian invasion of Ukraine is any less forgiveable than the current American support for the military subjugation of Yemenis, Palestinians, or Somalis? Why is Biden barely held to account by Western media?

Why are George W. Bush and Tony Blair not on trial at The Hague for the Iraq War? Maybe one of the factors is this US federal law - signed by Bush himself - which means that situation could result in an invasion of the Netherlands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act

Sounds a bit like the behaviour of... dare I say it... a tyrant?

 

Putin is unique. He's a really brutal dictator with the second largest stash of nuclear weapons in the world. He's also a direct threat to Europe, which is us. 

Putin will never be put on trial for his actions. That's the reality of being the head of a state with one of the largest stockpiles of nuclear weapons in the world. Equally true of Bush and Blair, but there is nevertheless a massive difference in the extent of the transgressions. For all. the legal criticisms you can make of invading Iraq without an explicit UN mandate, you can't say Hussein was worth shedding tears over, and neither can you say that allied troops behaved in anything like the barbaric, nye on genocidal, way that Russian troops and mercenaries are doing in Ukraine. 

The US did, at least have the courtesy to make a case to the UN and try and gain support before entering Iraq; Russia didn't even make a pretense of a case for its so-called 'denazification' in Ukraine, because it knew full well it was all lies that wouldn't stand up to the smallest modicum of scrutiny. 

Ill-judged as Iraq was, annexation was never the goal; an attempt at installing a democracy was made. A stupid exercise that finished up doing more harm than good as a result of vacillation over the years, but not inherently evil; Putin's aspirations to literally wipe Ukraine off of the map and annex the whole country as its own territory is exactly the naked imperialism that the US is so absurdly accused of by the fifth columnists of Stop the War etc. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Bort 34]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Something about Thatcher saying they prefer guns over butter whereas we prefer butter over guns springs to mind. North Korean life expectancy isn't too great either, and that's another country with disproportionate military spending and a complete cult of personality going on.

Haha yeah you're right, Thatcher did say a lot of banal sh*t didn't she.

The life expectancy in North Korea is 72 years - close to the global average of 73 years, and pretty good for a country which was quite literally levelled by the US during the Korean War and has been sanctioned by most of the world ever since.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

1 minute ago, Bort said:

Haha yeah you're right, Thatcher did say a lot of banal sh*t didn't she.

The life expectancy in North Korea is 72 years - close to the global average of 73 years, and pretty good for a country which was quite literally levelled by the US during the Korean War and has been sanctioned by most of the world ever since.

Has that data been independently verified, or is that just the say so of the North Korean government?

[Bort 34]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

and neither can you say that allied troops behaved in anything like the barbaric, nye on genocidal, way that Russian troops and mercenaries are doing in Ukraine. 

Oh I absolutely can.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/no-justice-in-sight-for-iraqi-victims-of-alleged-murder-rape-and-torture-9849305.html

https://www.vice.com/en/article/ev9be7/did-british-soldiers-carry-out-summary-executions-and-rape-civilians-in-iraq

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wikileaks-documents-detail-rape-abuse-murder/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings

[Bort 34]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Has that data been independently verified, or is that just the say so of the North Korean government?

World Health Organisation:

https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/north-korea-life-expectancy

Statista:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1072222/life-expectancy-north-korea-historical/

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

2 minutes ago, Bort said:

Oh I absolutely can.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/no-justice-in-sight-for-iraqi-victims-of-alleged-murder-rape-and-torture-9849305.html

https://www.vice.com/en/article/ev9be7/did-british-soldiers-carry-out-summary-executions-and-rape-civilians-in-iraq

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wikileaks-documents-detail-rape-abuse-murder/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings

This is a relatively small number of incidents over decades. The Russians have eclipsed this in Ukraine in months. 

[Bort 34]

10 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

This is a relatively small number of incidents over decades. The Russians have eclipsed this in Ukraine in months. 

In case you didn't open the links - this isn't four incidents, it's four sources outlining hundreds of incidents in Iraq which affected many thousands of people.

Here's another one for good measure:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

Edited August 1, 2022 by Bort

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

In case you didn't open the links - this isn't four incidents, it's four sources outlining hundreds of incidents in Iraq which affected many thousands of people.

Here's another one for good measure:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

If you look at your own link on Abu Ghraib, you'll see a number of soldiers were court-martialled, convicted and imprisoned for prisoner abuse by the forces in which they served; there's no such accountability for Russian troops from the Russian army, and even less for the mercenaries on Putin's payroll. 

14,000 alleged Russian war crimes in Ukraine between February and June. Like I said, a relatively small number of incidents over years in Iraq in comparison to Russia's atrocities in a few months. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#:~:text=On 7 April 2022%2C the,against approximately 80 of them.

Edited August 2, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[1902 1,167]

7 hours ago, Bort said:

World Health Organisation:

https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/north-korea-life-expectancy

Statista:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1072222/life-expectancy-north-korea-historical/

Except that data comes from what is reported by the North Korean government. 

For a sceptic you sure are selective with what you apply your scepticism too.

As for the Iraq and Afghanistan equivalents. I was deeply opposed to those particular unjustified campaigns as well, I haven't felt the need to point them out at every occasion to justify an unprovoked attack by Russia on Ukraine which is what we are discussing. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by 1902

[Bort 34]

5 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If you look at your own link on Abu Ghraib, you'll see a number of soldiers were court-martialled, convicted and imprisoned for prisoner abuse by the forces in which they served; there's no such accountability for Russian troops from the Russian army, and even less for the mercenaries on Putin's payroll. 

14,000 alleged Russian war crimes in Ukraine between February and June. Like I said, a relatively small number of incidents over years in Iraq in comparison to Russia's atrocities in a few months. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#:~:text=On 7 April 2022%2C the,against approximately 80 of them.

Yes and if you look through the other links, you'll see there are many more cases where the crimes have gone unanswered - as detailed by this report for example (on the UK forces specifically): 

https://www.ecchr.eu/en/case/war-crimes-by-uk-forces-in-iraq/

And on the US forces:

https://archive.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/atrocitindex.htm

The ICC are currently investigating Russian war crimes in Ukraine, and I'll certainly be reading their report once it's published.

[horsefly 4,303]

14 hours ago, Bort said:

Looking at the figures, there are currently ~400 political prisoners in Russia, and there have been around 12,000 civilian casualties in Ukraine since February (5000 dead, 7000 injured). For context, around 3500 civilians were killed in the Donbass between 2014 and 2022.

Not quite the five million lives effectively lost under Yeltsin's leadership is it? He's more indefensible than Putin, especially as he oversaw the enriching of the oligarchs in the first place - so please don't try to portray him as some kind of tragic figure who fought for "democracy".

Feel free to point out where I said anything of the sort. Do try to read what someone actually says instead of obsessively promoting your Putin propaganda. Mind you, I'm glad you agree that ultimately Putin is indefensible.

[Bort 34]

15 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Except that data comes from what is reported by the North Korean government. 

For a sceptic you sure are selective with what you apply your scepticism too.

As for the Iraq and Afghanistan equivalents. I was deeply opposed to those particular unjustified campaigns as well, I haven't felt the need to point them out at every occasion to justify an unprovoked attack by Russia on Ukraine which is what we are discussing. 

Independent researchers were able to estimate the death toll of the North Korean famine in the 1990s - why do you think something as fundamental as overall life expectancy would go unverified?

I'm not "justifying" Russian war crimes at all (an incredibly dishonest interpretation of my posts), I'm merely pointing out that such crimes aren't unique, and the West's governments and military leadership should be as willing to condemn their own actions as those of others. This quite obviously isn't the case.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,555]

30 minutes ago, Bort said:

Yes and if you look through the other links, you'll see there are many more cases where the crimes have gone unanswered - as detailed by this report for example (on the UK forces specifically): 

https://www.ecchr.eu/en/case/war-crimes-by-uk-forces-in-iraq/

And on the US forces:

https://archive.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/atrocitindex.htm

The ICC are currently investigating Russian war crimes in Ukraine, and I'll certainly be reading their report once it's published.

So what? The existence of many convictions by our own forces where there's sufficient evidence - evidence often found and provided within our own forces - proves the existence of the will to want to hold our own armed forces to the standards we expect. Our own armed forces have voluntarily provided evidence to support prosecution of war crimes by our soldiers going rogue. Helmet cam footage of the murder of an injured captive during combat in Helmand springs to mind. Where does Russia hold itself to anything like those standards? 

That's proof that upholding international rules of war means something in Western forces, while Russia is at best indifferent to the abuse of prisoners of war and civilians, and demonstratively intent on the targetting and killing of civilians en masse with heavy weaponry. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie