Hughton Takes Over At Forest.

[king canary 7,606]

2 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

Except we NEVER played to his strengths from day one of his arriving here.

You only had to watch the footage from the first 2 months to see he was making great runs and NOBODY was bothering to find him.

Maybe he wasn't cut out for the top level, but the fact remains that if you give a player ZERO supply and don't play to any of their strengths (however limited you may feel they are), then you're on a hiding to nothing in terms of getting returns from them.

The reason I brought up Pukki is that he's currently having the exact same problem as RvW did, we're not giving him the right kind of supply (or at all in some cases), thus his returns have dried up, and yet instead of giving him the kind of balls we did in the promotion season (you know, where he scored THIRTY goals), we're insisting on slinging high balls in and then clamouring for Hugill to play as he suits this more, and somehow this is Pukki's fault!

I think we all know we didn't play to his strengths.

What some don't see though is that his strengths were ever 'strong' enough to be played to in the first place.

Modern strikers need to generally offer more than 'good runs' and finishing (and I'm not convinced he's that good of a finisher anyway) in most teams. You can do well for a club like Sporting where the team will be on the front foot most of the game and defenders are generally a bit ropey. Ricky was far too lightweight to offer anything else. 

So he was the wrong signing for us by far but I'm not convinced he would have been the right signing for any Premier League team and I'm really not convinced he'd have done much better without Snodgrass.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,135]

On 07/10/2020 at 11:42, lake district canary said:

Probably.....I watched him in his first season with us and he was focussed and played well, with grant Holt as still our talisman. When GH left, it was as clear as anything what happened, even before that penalty incident - he actively made himself the main man, dominated the team and showed himself - imo - one of the most selfish players we have ever had.  It used to drive me mad to see him run into dead ends and then look as if he was going to burst into tears, or shout and yell at anyone who was around for a free kick when he clearly had just kept the ball too long.  I would love to see stats about how many times that happened during that season.

Some good goals......but I think of it in terms of how many times he tried to run into the box and get a shot away, maybe 20 times a match?  Maybe out of that he would get one or two shots on target.....but the other 18 times, it would be a wasted opportunity to bring others into the game. 

You could compare him to Onel in some ways...not that I think Argos is a serlfish player.....gets the ball and runs at the defence and is often single minded in wanting to get a shot in himself....but the difference is Onel is still great around the team play too, with better judgement as to when to run in on the penalty area. Snodgrass simply got the ball and tried most of the time to do it all on his own. He got some success out of that, scored some goals, but the rest of the time it was negative for the team, restricting other opportunities that might have been made had he been less selfish. As for his tracking back.....

 

Have you considered that he was told to do those things by Hughton for tactical reasons? 

It is very common for defensive low block teams to play for set pieces and Snodgrass' routine running into dead ends and holding the ball looked much more to me like a ploy to win free kicks. He was very good at buying them and taking them so it made total sense when the rest of the team was so poor in their build up play and slow and disjointed on the counter. Same thing with the pot shots, he would've been instructed to do that because we didn't have the personnel (as Hughton didn't play Hoolahan) to work the ball into the box for openings so I guess Hughton thought it was smarter and less tactically risky to take pot shots, if some go in great, if some rebound to one of our strikers great, if he misses, who cares the team is still in shape to defend. 

I also have no idea what you mean by his tracking back. For a winger who was assigned as our main playmaker he was always pretty diligent out of possession and regularly got back into shape to help defend. Hughton didn't like his players to chase after the ball if they lost it and try to make a challenge, if we lost the ball players were instructed to drop deep into position in numbers to severely restrict space, he didn't want his players tackling and challenging the opposition because it compromised his hard drilled defensive structure. 

 

What you're criticizing Snodgrass and prasing Onel for is more reflective of their individual coaches playing style, instructions and team set up than the mentality of each player. Maybe you're just not as big of a Hughton fan as you thought you were?

[Nuff Said 5,141]

I’ve not looked at this thread before now, and when I saw it had reached 4 pages, I suspected it had degenerated into a good old Pink Un oh yes he did/oh no he didn’t spat. Probably one where Lakey has to have the last word.

 

Bingo!

 

Having said Lakey is unable to leave anything alone, I’m also finding it irresistible to put my 2 pennies’ worth in. 😳
We appear to have on one side those who think RVW, Eliot Bennett and Chris Hughton were the answer and Snoddy was  some sort of evil genius who through force of will caused them and us to fail. On the other side, we have the evidence of their subsequent careers. Nuff said.

[lake district canary 4,531]

30 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Having said Lakey is unable to leave anything alone, I’m also finding it irresistible to put my 2 pennies’ worth in. 😳

We appear to have on one side those who think RVW, Eliot Bennett and Chris Hughton were the answer and Snoddy was  some sort of evil genius who through force of will caused them and us to fail. On the other side, we have the evidence of their subsequent careers. Nuff said.

RVW - who recaptured some of his goalscoring form before his enforced lay off, Eliot Bennett who is now role model and captain of a good championship team, Chris Hughton who continues to be a successful manager. 

 

54 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Have you considered that he was told to do those things by Hughton for tactical reasons? 

It is very common for defensive low block teams to play for set pieces and Snodgrass' routine running into dead ends and holding the ball looked much more to me like a ploy to win free kicks. He was very good at buying them and taking them so it made total sense when the rest of the team was so poor in their build up play and slow and disjointed on the counter. Same thing with the pot shots, he would've been instructed to do that because we didn't have the personnel (as Hughton didn't play Hoolahan) to work the ball into the box for openings so I guess Hughton thought it was smarter and less tactically risky to take pot shots, if some go in great, if some rebound to one of our strikers great, if he misses, who cares the team is still in shape to defend. 

I also have no idea what you mean by his tracking back. For a winger who was assigned as our main playmaker he was always pretty diligent out of possession and regularly got back into shape to help defend. Hughton didn't like his players to chase after the ball if they lost it and try to make a challenge, if we lost the ball players were instructed to drop deep into position in numbers to severely restrict space, he didn't want his players tackling and challenging the opposition because it compromised his hard drilled defensive structure. 

Good points......but I never felt as if Snoddy defended with enthusiasm...ok, attacking players want to attack, but these days players have to attack every facet of the game with complete positivity.  Since he left, I have followed his career a bit (mainly to see if my opinions about him are correct) and from what I have seen it has been a mixed bag.  At Hull he had his ego massaged by Bruce so he did ok, at West Ham under Bilic (?), he was total rubbish...I mean total.  After Bilic he has been better, but not a regular.  The biggest lowlight I saw from him was a match, I think it was for Hull after Bruce had left, where the opposition were on the attack and Snoddy was the nearest player to the man with the ball and for no apparent reason he just stopped running, just stopped in his tracks, not injured or anything...and the forward had free reign to put in a cross for the opposition to equalise. It was like he was thinking, oh s*d it, I can't be bothered. Cost his team two points.

 

[The Real Buh 3,432]

Why

in all that exists between heaven and earth

in all the 7 realms and valhallah and all of the multiverses 

why, please god answer me why

Are we 

NOT

NOTTINGHAM FOREST!????????

[Nuff Said 5,141]

4 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

RVW - who recaptured some of his goalscoring form before his enforced lay off, Eliot Bennett who is now role model and captain of a good championship team, Chris Hughton who continues to be a successful manager. 

Seriously? I'm not knocking Bennett or Hughton, but Snodgrass has continued to play in the Premier League. Of the others, Hughton has come closest to matching this but has repeatedly failed to sustain a career at that level and is now managing (again) in the Championship. 

 

4 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Good points......but I never felt as if Snoddy defended with enthusiasm...ok, attacking players want to attack, but these days players have to attack every facet of the game with complete positivity.  Since he left, I have followed his career a bit (mainly to see if my opinions about him are correct) and from what I have seen it has been a mixed bag.  At Hull he had his ego massaged by Bruce so he did ok, at West Ham under Bilic (?), he was total rubbish...I mean total.  After Bilic he has been better, but not a regular.  The biggest lowlight I saw from him was a match, I think it was for Hull after Bruce had left, where the opposition were on the attack and Snoddy was the nearest player to the man with the ball and for no apparent reason he just stopped running, just stopped in his tracks, not injured or anything...and the forward had free reign to put in a cross for the opposition to equalise. It was like he was thinking, oh s*d it, I can't be bothered. Cost his team two points.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

[king canary 7,606]

9 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Seriously? I'm not knocking Bennett or Hughton, but Snodgrass has continued to play in the Premier League. Of the others, Hughton has come closest to matching this but has repeatedly failed to sustain a career at that level and is now managing (again) in the Championship. 

Nice guy but I personally think Bennett is one of the most overrated players by our fans. Works hard but very limited and since he left us has been a lower mid-table Championship player. 

On a purely statistical basis Snodgrass was excellent in the Premier League last season- 5 goals, 5 assists in just over 1500 minutes on the pitch. Not a regular starter but clearly an impactful player despite being an older player in a struggling team.

30 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

RVW - who recaptured some of his goalscoring form before his enforced lay off

In the Dutch league. Not knocking that but part of the argument is that he's suited to being a striker in these weaker leagues where goals are easier to come by, just as Hughton has proven himself a very capable manager in the second tier who gets found out in the top division. 

Snodgrass is the only one of these 4 that has shown himself a consistent performer in the top flight.

[lake district canary 4,531]

30 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Seriously? I'm not knocking Bennett or Hughton, but Snodgrass has continued to play in the Premier League. Of the others, Hughton has come closest to matching this but has repeatedly failed to sustain a career at that level and is now managing (again) in the Championship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

We all see what we want to see.....some people wanted to see a player trying his hardest, passionate, giving it all.....others wanted to see a bit more of a team player.  Personally, I would far rather have had Eliot Bennett on the wing that season. A real blow after that first game. 

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

Snodgrass is the only one of these 4 that has shown himself a consistent performer in the top flight.

Not consistent. He's had some really bad spells. Needs the kind of manager that will massage his ego, if he doesn't get that, he struggles.

[hogesar 9,673]

18 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

We all see what we want to see.....some people wanted to see a player trying his hardest, passionate, giving it all.....others wanted to see a bit more of a team player.  Personally, I would far rather have had Eliot Bennett on the wing that season. A real blow after that first game. 

Not consistent. He's had some really bad spells. Needs the kind of manager that will massage his ego, if he doesn't get that, he struggles.

You literally just made that up.

[lake district canary 4,531]

18 minutes ago, hogesar said:

You literally just made that up.

It's as clear as anything, he needs to feel he is the main man - look at his putting himself up to be Scotland captain. What did he do when he didn't get it?.....he retired himself from international football.

[hogesar 9,673]

4 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

It's as clear as anything, he needs to feel he is the main man - look at his putting himself up to be Scotland captain. What did he do when he didn't get it?.....he retired himself from international football.

Yet at West Ham for the past two season he's been a bit-part player, never publically kicked off, still got opportunities and still delivered goals and assists when he did get his chance.

I'm not even some massive Snodgrass fan. He's never been more than an average premier league player. But he's deserving of far more credit than you give him.

[lake district canary 4,531]

11 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yet at West Ham for the past two season he's been a bit-part player, never publically kicked off, still got opportunities and still delivered goals and assists when he did get his chance.

My main gripe was with his time with us, but since then, some of the examples I have used were before these last two years when he has had managers who have given him a bit more say in where he plays - ie more central.

 

[king canary 7,606]

8 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

My main gripe was with his time with us, but since then, some of the examples I have used were before these last two years when he has had managers who have given him a bit more say in where he plays - ie more central.

 

What evidence do you have he's had more say in where he plays?

All this sounds like is you've got a conclusion (Snodgrass is a selfish player who needs to be in control to perform) and worked backwards to make everything fit (when he's good it is because he's having his ego massaged and a say in where he plays) with no actual evidence as far as I can see.

[sgncfc 1,228]

5 hours ago, lake district canary said:

RVW - who recaptured some of his goalscoring form before his enforced lay off, Eliot Bennett who is now role model and captain of a good championship team, Chris Hughton who continues to be a successful manager. 

 

Good points......but I never felt as if Snoddy defended with enthusiasm...ok, attacking players want to attack, but these days players have to attack every facet of the game with complete positivity.  Since he left, I have followed his career a bit (mainly to see if my opinions about him are correct) and from what I have seen it has been a mixed bag.  At Hull he had his ego massaged by Bruce so he did ok, at West Ham under Bilic (?), he was total rubbish...I mean total.  After Bilic he has been better, but not a regular.  The biggest lowlight I saw from him was a match, I think it was for Hull after Bruce had left, where the opposition were on the attack and Snoddy was the nearest player to the man with the ball and for no apparent reason he just stopped running, just stopped in his tracks, not injured or anything...and the forward had free reign to put in a cross for the opposition to equalise. It was like he was thinking, oh s*d it, I can't be bothered. Cost his team two points.

 

I remember Redmond doing that for us against Swansea away - we lost 1-0.