The Positive Brexit Thread

[Surfer 1,547]

20 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You can produce products to standards of another expert market. China produces goods similar goods for the US and EU markets, but they'll be manufactured to the standards of the target export market. Whether that's a cost-effective approach depends on volumes though.

It's quite interesting that Yellow Fever and surfer are both involved in certification related to exports but aren't interested in diverging from CE. Is that because your companies just aren't interested in markets outside the EU? Does it not concern you that your own companies would be sidelined from any governmental influence on standards if we stuck with CE?

In the medical field there are two technical standards that virtually guarantee access to 90% of the world market. FDA 510(k) and CE Mark. There is absolutely no point whatsoever in the UK having its own standards that diverge from either. If a UK standard is higher no manufacturer would bother to create a product specifically for the UK market, if a UK standard is lower no manufacturer would bother to create a product that they could only sell into the UK market. No political posturing can change that commercial reality. 

When in the EU the UK had a very powerful negotiating position - often backed up by the smaller countries - as a counterbalance to the interests of France and Germany. Outside the EU it has NONE. It is commercial stupidity of the highest degree. 

p.s. who is the 10% not covered by FDA or CE?  China. Good luck if you think you can sell there and still maintain your IP or get paid. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Surfer

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

16 minutes ago, Surfer said:

It's the truth none of the anti-EU brigade wants to face. To believe that the UK with its centuries-old history of trading around the world building a commercial and political empire the spread of which had never been seen before wasn't already trading with every single one of the countries that are supposed to replace trade with the EU beggars belief. Then again people do buy the Daily Mail etc etc. 

Do you remember in the early days of the referendum some less informed telling us that the EU stopped us selling to the likes of the above. Unbelievable I know. Germany is still the worlds 3rd largest exporter (behind US and China if I recall). Damn that EU.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

39 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Do you remember in the early days of the referendum some less informed telling us that the EU stopped us selling to the likes of the above. Unbelievable I know. Germany is still the worlds 3rd largest exporter (behind US and China if I recall). Damn that EU.

And that the EU couldn't negotiate decent trade deals whereas our top negotiators would do wonders.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

1 hour ago, Surfer said:

It's the truth none of the anti-EU brigade wants to face. To believe that the UK with its centuries-old history of trading around the world building a commercial and political empire the spread of which had never been seen before wasn't already trading with every single one of the countries that are supposed to replace trade with the EU beggars belief. Then again people do buy the Daily Mail etc etc. 

Speak to Canadians and Australians and you will hear of the damage done to them when we joined the EEC because of the change in trading terms required by our adhering to its terms.

There seems to be a massive contradiction in the whole argument here that, on one hand, returning to the CU and SM is the be all and end all of UK survival, but on the other hand any change to trade arrangements with anyone else are of no significance. If trade agreements were so unimportant everybody wouldn't be so fussed that we left the EU in the first place, especially given that our trade agreement with the EU is actually one of the more extensive ones for non-EU members.

Being anti-EU or pro-EU is not the point. We're not members any more; they are interested in their interests, not ours.

Edited February 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

12 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

And that the EU couldn't negotiate decent trade deals whereas our top negotiators would do wonders.

It's not about how well the EU could negotiate trade agreements, it's about what was motivating the EU to negotiate trade agreements.

Case in point: Australia. We had more extensive relations with Australia that we had to restrict as a result of joining the EEC. There was a clear and obvious motive from the UK perspective to push for more extensive relations between the EEC and Australia, and yet there was nothing throughout our entire membership of the EEC or the EU, right up until after the leave vote where the EU announced a fast track priority for a deal with Australia that there was no sign of over the prior decades.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

2 hours ago, Surfer said:

When in the EU the UK had a very powerful negotiating position - often backed up by the smaller countries - as a counterbalance to the interests of France and Germany. Outside the EU it has NONE. It is commercial stupidity of the highest degree.

Exactly, which is why it makes sense to realign our interests with Japan and other CPTPP members who also have an interest in establishing a say in standards to apply to that MTA to then have conversations down the road about common standards for everybody instead of de facto global standards dictated by the US and EU; detaching ourselves from EU standards in principle, even if it makes no sense in practise in the short term, is essential if anyone wants to go down that road.

Edited February 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,819]

58 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's not about how well the EU could negotiate trade agreements, it's about what was motivating the EU to negotiate trade agreements.

Case in point: Australia. We had more extensive relations with Australia that we had to restrict as a result of joining the EEC. There was a clear and obvious motive from the UK perspective to push for more extensive relations between the EEC and Australia, and yet there was nothing throughout our entire membership of the EEC or the EU, right up until after the leave vote where the EU announced a fast track priority for a deal with Australia that there was no sign of over the prior decades.

 

There's always been good trading links between the two it is now being extended, talks starting properly in 2018, to be an overall FTA.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

14 minutes ago, Herman said:

There's always been good trading links between the two it is now being extended, talks starting properly in 2018, to be an overall FTA.

'Good trading links' is a fudge phrase. There's nothing being extended in creating the new FTA between Australia and the EU. There is no existing trade agreement between Australia and the EU; it's all WTO-based.

If it's that easy for countries to have 'good trading links' with the EU without additional arrangements, why be worried about whether we're members for trade?

Edited February 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,819]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

'Good trading links' is a fudge phrase. There's nothing being extended. There is no existing trade agreement between Australia and the EU; it's all WTO-based.

It's not all WTO, there have a few agreements between them over the last few decades.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

5 minutes ago, Herman said:

It's not all WTO, there have a few agreements between them over the last few decades.

Oh please... you're taking the ****.

Where are they? Show me any references to existing EU/Australia trade agreements.

Edited February 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,819]

EU-Australian Partnership Agreements and Mutual Recognition Agreements for starters.

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

15 minutes ago, Herman said:

EU-Australian Partnership Agreements and Mutual Recognition Agreements for starters.

More to the point, I rather expect the EU will protect its farmers and make sure any eventual FTA is a win for all.

Not for political expediency.

[Herman 9,819]

6 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

More to the point, I rather expect the EU will protect its farmers and make sure any eventual FTA is a win for all.

Not for political expediency.

It may lead to Australia lifting its standards in agriculture, for example, if it looks to be lucrative. Stop using hormones etc and there's 450million people market for your beef.

[A Load of Squit 5,203]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Oh please... you're taking the ****.

Where are they? Show me any references to existing EU/Australia trade agreements.

Man fails to do proper research and shows everyone how stupid he is.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

More to the point, I rather expect the EU will protect its farmers and make sure any eventual FTA is a win for all.

Not for political expediency.

What, like the UK protected it's fishermen when we joined the EEC? It's fascinating how selective your grievances are. Make a deal 50 years ago with concessions against the interests of UK fishermen for wider gains, no problem; make a deal that makes concessions on farming now for other gains and it's the end of the world.

Way to go for consistency.

Edited February 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

It may lead to Australia lifting its standards in agriculture, for example, if it looks to be lucrative. Stop using hormones etc and there's 450million people market for your beef.

You sound quite excited about the prospect, which is weird seeing as there's nothing in it for you either way.

 

1 hour ago, Herman said:

EU-Australian Partnership Agreements and Mutual Recognition Agreements for starters.

That is not a trade agreement.

Edited February 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

More to the point, I rather expect the EU will protect its farmers and make sure any eventual FTA is a win for all.

Not for political expediency.

Chances are they'll struggle to finalise anything like they always do. I wonder what concessions Hungary will screw out of the EU in exchange for letting it over the line?

Nothing against the EU but your circle jerk over the EU is a joke.

Edited February 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,819]

Brexiters. I sh!t 'em. 

30 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You sound quite excited about the prospect, which is weird seeing as there's nothing in it for you either way.

 

That is not a trade agreement.

Little do you know.😉

They are agreements that include trade. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

6 minutes ago, Herman said:

Brexiters. I sh!t 'em. 

Little do you know.😉

They are agreements that include trade. 

It talks about trade; there are no trade agreements in there. You're actually doing what you complained about with this bullsh1t. No Australia EU trade agreements exist.

Sorry, if this crap is the best you can do to make yourself feel better over having left the EU then I pity you.

Edited February 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

From what I understand, a trade deal between the EU and Oz is stuck at the moment. And it seems it is the opposite to what British farmers believe is wrong with our trade deal.

The UK farmers claim the market will be full of less quality primary produce because of Aussie farming standards. Yet Aussie farmers are claiming the standards of the EU are less than theirs.

Did we ever ask about quality and standards from Oz or the EU before?

[Herman 9,819]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It talks about trade; there are no trade agreements in there. You're actually doing what you complained about with this bullsh1t. No Australia EU trade agreements exist.

Sorry, if this crap is the best you can do to make yourself feel better over having left the EU then I pity you.

I can't be arsed with your nonsense. I've got a nice bottle of Penfold's wine to try.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

4 minutes ago, Herman said:

I can't be arsed with your nonsense. I've got a nice bottle of Penfold's wine to try.

You should have started the wine before you started spouting rubbish making claims of non-existent trade agreements; maybe you'd make more sense. 😘

Edited February 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,819]

Whoosh!!

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

21 minutes ago, Herman said:

Whoosh!!

Okay, you got me there. I've lost track of other wine markets somewhat, what with living smack bang in the middle of French wine country.

And a bit Brahms and Liszt from a bit of Alsace bubbly to boot, which is probably a good time to call it a night.

Sleep well!

Edited February 7, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Surfer 1,547]

5 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Exactly, which is why it makes sense to realign our interests with Japan and other CPTPP members who also have an interest in establishing a say in standards to apply to that MTA to then have conversations down the road about common standards for everybody instead of de facto global standards dictated by the US and EU; detaching ourselves from EU standards in principle, even if it makes no sense in practise in the short term, is essential if anyone wants to go down that road.

It makes no sense at all. In another field why do you think Ukraine wants to join the EU and NATO? Because by sharing its sovereignty it can remain a sovereign nation and not be devoured by the Russian bear. Same with rejoining the EU, we'd be so much better off, and a much more powerful voice in the world than one trying to go it alone. There is a reason the UK economy is underperforming every other G7 economy and it's not how hard the British people work. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

10 minutes ago, Surfer said:

It makes no sense at all. In another field why do you think Ukraine wants to join the EU and NATO? Because by sharing its sovereignty it can remain a sovereign nation and not be devoured by the Russian bear. Same with rejoining the EU, we'd be so much better off, and a much more powerful voice in the world than one trying to go it alone. There is a reason the UK economy is underperforming every other G7 economy and it's not how hard the British people work. 

Ukraine is just running like f*k for any protection it can get with good reason. And it has to be said that Ukraine's determination to join the EU was a factor in the Russian annexation of Crimea and Russia launching the war of misinformation that contributed to us leaving the EU.

The problem with the EU is it behaves like a powerful player, but in reality it's brittle, inflexible, and sclerotic. Poland and Hungary illustrate that very well with the way they have the EU tearing its hair out trying to force them on song over civil rights and LGBTQ rights at the expense of sending Hungary into Russia's sphere while in a position to poison the well internally for the EU as far as dealing with Russia is concerned and many other issues.

Ukraine wanted to join to get out of Russia's sphere, and the grass is always greener on the other side. I would be willing to bet that, had it joined, there would be similar crises with Ukraine as with Hungary over civil rights, and with another one of them in the club, that would be another blow for the EU's credibility.

Sharing sovereignty on trade and security is a great call; throwing social standards into that was the EU's fundamental mistake, which is why I don't believe we should rejoin when CPTPP gives us a clean slate where insisting on standardising social ideas is never likely to be on the cards with the diversity of cultures involved.

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

I appreciate LYB you are channelling your inner Brexiteer while ironically living in France yet telling us all in the UK what to think.

However the grass is not always greener elsewhere and despite all of the challenges the EU has faced over recent years and it's predicted demise it has actually gone from strength to strength. Yes some countries can have more issues than others but simply it is  greater than the sum of it parts. One of it strengths is of course all members have a common European heritage even if they do not realize it - think only as far back as WW1 and the Austro-Hungarian empire and you can see the common culture. Same goes ultimately for Ukraine. 

The still new CPTTP is completely untried, untested by contrast. I'm at a loss to see what for instance Peru has in common with Brunei let alone the UK.  It's interesting but just small beer as compared to the major blocks EU, US and China and likely to remain so.

However - if you really want to see the costs of 'Brexit - this from Bloomberg might be informative. 100Bn/year.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/more-brexit-blows-as-the-uk-loses-100-billion-a-year-in-economic-output/ss-AA17bSQO?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=2a4cd36c360943fcb2135e05a064d4d6#image=2

[horsefly 4,310]

22 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's a strong statement. If that's the case, why did all 11 of the the signatory nations bother signing up to it in the first place?

China's appliation is probably never going to be taken forward with relations with Australia as they are.

Have you noticed something they had in common? The clue is in the title, CPTPP. 

[Herman 9,819]

Don't wake him up, ffs lads. 😉

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

4 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I appreciate LYB you are channelling your inner Brexiteer while ironically living in France yet telling us all in the UK what to think.

However the grass is not always greener elsewhere and despite all of the challenges the EU has faced over recent years and it's predicted demise it has actually gone from strength to strength. Yes some countries can have more issues than others but simply it is  greater than the sum of it parts. One of it strengths is of course all members have a common European heritage even if they do not realize it - think only as far back as WW1 and the Austro-Hungarian empire and you can see the common culture. Same goes ultimately for Ukraine. 

The still new CPTTP is completely untried, untested by contrast. I'm at a loss to see what for instance Peru has in common with Brunei let alone the UK.  It's interesting but just small beer as compared to the major blocks EU, US and China and likely to remain so.

However - if you really want to see the costs of 'Brexit - this from Bloomberg might be informative. 100Bn/year.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/more-brexit-blows-as-the-uk-loses-100-billion-a-year-in-economic-output/ss-AA17bSQO?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=2a4cd36c360943fcb2135e05a064d4d6#image=2

Most of the UK population had an 'inner brexiteer', even ones like me who voted remain and campaigned for a confirmatory referendum, and finally just to cancel.

On the flip side, I suppose there's no less irony in your own lack of interest and dismissal of the subject of furthering relations with markets that are the focal point of your actual day-to-day work.

Everyone was happy with the single market and the Customs Union; far less people were happy with free movement and the single currency. More people were unhappy with the fact that powers surrendered to the EU from parliament were gone without consultation never to return. Both Labour and the Conservatives share responsibility for the poor reputation of the EU in the UK by regularly blaming the EU for things to take the heat off them.

This is why I think anyone who wants to try and sell the idea of returning to the EU, regardless of how many regret it now (act in haste; repent at leisure) is on a hiding to nothing, so people like you who can't let go of it will increasingly be left at the sidelines.

As to 'small beer ', I think that's nonsense and time will demonstrate that is the case.

But anyway, I agree with Herman that this is boring now, so I'll leave you to get back to your circle jerk.

Edited February 8, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie