Attacking Midfielder in 4-5-1 time to try something different ?

[KeelansGlove 0]

Part of me will concede that should we defend resolutely at Newcastle and Howson hit a rocket into the top corner we will all be very happy.

Although I am not particularly sure I will be rushing to by a ticket for a 500 mile trip on that basis.

As I have said on a couple of other threads this weekend the isolation of our striker (whichever is chosen) has been the biggest consistent floor in CHs tactics, something I could overlook in odd games but not almost every game.

I make no secret that I would like to see Hooper play behind RVW at least for 20-30 minutes of games at home especially if we are struggling to find a way through.

I would concede (for I have been a Howson doubter in the past) that he has been outstanding since his rebirth towards the end of last season but from what I have seen he seems to be more of a box to box player than a creative AM. After all he hit the bar on Saturday playing further back and Hoolahan was playing in both The Man City and WBA games and that didn''t stop him did it.

The problem seems to be that most of our midfielders like to have a pop from 30 yards at every opportunity something I don''t want to discourage but I would hope it was one of at least 4 options.

The others being run at the defence and go for goal, play a pass to a striker , cross the ball or pull it back from out wide.

Away from home I would prefer to see Leroy as the most advanced as he seems to be the player with the best range of passes.

But I would also be keen to see what Redmond or Snodgrass could do playing more centrally.

What are peoples thoughts ? Is it just me ?

Do you think its just a matter of time until the strikers get more chances in the current formation or is the record low number of touches RVW had in the Everton game a signal that something needs to be changed (even if Hoolahan was the culprit that day)

[chicken 0]

No, no, no and no.

Where have you been? We have played 4-5-1 on quite a few occasions, pretty much whenever Howson is deemed to be the player in behind he always drops deep and helps out the midfield.

We have also seen Fer played in that role and it just does not work. I think the only way you could play him there is if you played Tettey and Johnson and then essentially you kill all creativity in midfield.

Fer is a box to box midfielder, he is best off in a role where his strength and power can be deployed along with his skill and creativity.

He is probably the best passer of a ball I have seen for quite some time. He struggled a bit in the first half, but to be fair he has been good everytime I have seen him otherwise.

He can hit a diagonal crossfield ball from virtually a full back position to the opposite wing in the opponent''s half. By playing him as an attacking midfielder you lose one of the most talented midfield players we have.

Our midfield is just not as good without him.

Go back to your suggestion of playing Snoddy in that role, it''s for more convincing and would allow us to play two more natural wide players in Pilkington and Redmond as well as having Howson and Fer still on the pitch.

[KeelansGlove 0]

I agree that Leroy is the best passer we have and I also agree that Howson drops deep to help out the midfield, but surely doesn''t that strengthen my case for the striker being isolated ?

Ideally I would like to see Fer and Howson play together or perhaps play Tettey against the big clubs where we need more cover for the defence, but with the three of them playing we may as well not bother playing a striker as they never get the ball.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]I agree that Leroy is the best passer we have and I also agree that Howson drops deep to help out the midfield, but surely doesn''t that strengthen my case for the striker being isolated ? Ideally I would like to see Fer and Howson play together or perhaps play Tettey against the big clubs where we need more cover for the defence, but with the three of them playing we may as well not bother playing a striker as they never get the ball.[/quote]

 

All three played against Cardiff and Hooper had 6 shots that game. By playing Tettey it allows both Fer and Howson to push forward and stops Norwich being so one dimensional as when they play Hoolahan - nothing against Hoolahan but teams soon learnt to sit on him and Norwich quickly ran out of ideas.

 

The 4-3-3 with Tettey, Fer and Howson allow the wingers to move into much narrower positions to provide support to the striker (as seen with Pilkington''s goal against Chelsea) but they are also able to strech play and allow Fer or Howson to come through the middle. Until Norwich sign a proper number 10 they shouldn''t try and force a player who isn''t a natural in that position there.

[chicken 0]

You sort of defeat your own point there.

First off you suggest playing Fer in the hole as Howson has done, then you suggest that playing a midfielder there leaves the striker isolated.

I have seen Fer played in that role and the team looks a lot weaker as a result. As I said on another thread where you made this exact same point, other than provide a bigger target for the ball to be lumped up to it did nothing to improve our overall game.

As for the striker being isolated - that has nothing to do with formation and is more to do with players not pushing forward to support them, or them not holding the ball up long enough for support to come in.

And for me, it is something we had begun to improve upon before Tettey''s injury as both Howson and Fer had more freedom to get forward in support of a striker.

Another thing often not commented upon is Pilks. Since he has come back we have looked much better going forward. He can often be seen getting forward and supporting the striker. Seeing as he has played that role already in his career you can see with a bit of better play he will either create or score.

I just really don''t feel playing Fer that far forward will give you anything other than a massive void to fill. Especially when right now we only have Johnson fit to come in and take up his normal position.

[Mr Brownstone 0]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

 

All three played against Cardiff and Hooper had 6 shots that game. By playing Tettey it allows both Fer and Howson to push forward and stops Norwich being so one dimensional as when they play Hoolahan - nothing against Hoolahan but teams soon learnt to sit on him and Norwich quickly ran out of ideas.

 

The 4-3-3 with Tettey, Fer and Howson allow the wingers to move into much narrower positions to provide support to the striker (as seen with Pilkington''s goal against Chelsea) but they are also able to strech play and allow Fer or Howson to come through the middle. Until Norwich sign a proper number 10 they shouldn''t try and force a player who isn''t a natural in that position there.

[/quote]

 

Do you think Whittaker could do a job in the "Tettey" role whilst he''s out injured?

 

[KeelansGlove 0]

Please understand I am not making a point merely asking the question.

I continue to be frustrated at what I perceive to be our continued isolation of any striker going back to the start of last season and of course felt that a number 10 was the vital player for us to sign in the summer (which we failed to do)

I would agree that maybe the Idea of Fer in that role is clutching at straws, I would certainly disagree with your assertion that this situation has shown any sign of improvement.

Bethnal would you not concede your fact of Hooper apparently only having 6 of the supposed 31 chances we created kind of makes my point for me ?

[ron obvious 1,711]

Bethnal Yellow and Green wrote the following post at 11/11/2013 11:26 AM:

... By playing Tettey it allows both Fer and Howson to push forward and stops Norwich being so one dimensional as when they play Hoolahan - nothing against Hoolahan but teams soon learnt to sit on him and Norwich quickly ran out of ideas.

The 4-3-3 with Tettey, Fer and Howson allow the wingers to move into much narrower positions to provide support to the striker (as seen with Pilkington''s goal against Chelsea) but they are also able to strech play and allow Fer or Howson to come through the middle. Until Norwich sign a proper number 10 they shouldn''t try and force a player who isn''t a natural in that position there.

----------------------------------------

This

[Move Klose 303]

We need an upgrade on Tettey/Johnson, someone to stick a tackle in but to be a better passer of the ball, giving Fer and Howson the licence to get forward, a Mark Noble type

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Please understand I am not making a point merely asking the question. I continue to be frustrated at what I perceive to be our continued isolation of any striker going back to the start of last season and of course felt that a number 10 was the vital player for us to sign in the summer (which we failed to do) I would agree that maybe the Idea of Fer in that role is clutching at straws, I would certainly disagree with your assertion that this situation has shown any sign of improvement. Bethnal would you not concede your fact of Hooper apparently only having 6 of the supposed 31 chances we created kind of makes my point for me ?[/quote]

 

No - because a 4-3-3 isn''t built around strikers being the only goal scorers unlike a 4-4-2 in which you would expect the majority of goals to come from one of the two forwards. In a 4-3-3 you want your striker to be creating as much as they are scoring, they are one player in an attacking three and much of their responsibility is dropping deep to move central defenders out of position.

 

RvW is very good at this, it is his natural game and a lot of this talk about him being a ''fox in the box'' etc is unfounded - his greatest skill has always been his off the ball contribution (not that he isn''t a good finisher) and he is excellent and bringing other players into the game. He was cut off in games when Norwich played a 4-4-1-1 because he needed to be much more disciplined in his position - it is a real shame his injury came about just when Norwich switched to a formation that would really suit him.

[KeelansGlove 0]

I Think Whittaker is a great player we were told he could play as a DM when he arrived but have never seen him deployed there.

I think its certainly worth a go although it wouldn''t address this issue.

[KeelansGlove 0]

Sorry Norwich have not and do not play 4-3-3 and if they did they certainly haven''t been playing the correct personnel.

I would argue that none of our midfielders would be ideal to play as a wide forward in 4 -3-3 with the exception of the Chelsea goal I cannot recall any player other than Striker or Howson in the box.

It may be valid to suggest that the striker is there to do more than score goals, I agree but they must be able to touch the ball first.

I honestly think Norwich have been toothless and ineffective going forward ever since Hughton arrived and have see no sign of this changing and no amount of 30 yard screamers will make me feel differently we need to be creating chances in the box.

[FenwayFrank 2,717]

Another Leroy then

[KeelansGlove 0]

But you are however happy to play Wingers Pilkington, Redmond or Snodgrass as allegedly wide forwards though Ron ?

[ron obvious 1,711]

Yes, KG. Pilkington can play anywhere across the front, & we all know Snodgrass cuts inside. Redmond is the closest to an old fashioned winger (though not as close as EB perhaps - & I seem to remember he had a cracking game when played ''in the hole'' once), but even he loves to cut inside & go for goal.

I feel the whole ''forwards, midfielders & defenders'' stuff is becoming increasingly redundant. You need players who have the qualities of all three types (with obviously certain abilities predominating) & are flexible enough to suit different tactics. It''s a process that''s been going on for years - ever since somebody had the bright idea of sticking a lump of a centre half up front at corners!

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Sorry Norwich have not and do not play 4-3-3 and if they did they certainly haven''t been playing the correct personnel. [/quote]

 

They have. Hughton has said it, numerous match reports have said it, many Norwich fans say it, opposing managers have been saying it. I can''t understand why some people still think it hasn''t been that way.

 

Pilkington and Snodgrass are fine players to play in the wider positions, both good at tucking inside and both have good work rates. Snodgrass isn''t hugely clinical but Pilkington is a good goalscorer.

 

When the strikers have been playing in the 4-3-3 they have had a lot more touches of the ball - as evidenced at Stoke, Chelsea and Cardiff in particular. Arsenal was always unlikely to hearld a striking''s delight, but I remember seeing that Hooper touched the ball as often as RvP did in the same weekend.

 

For most teams strikers are hardly the most involved players, especially if a formation like a 4-2-3-1 is used as the ''1'' is expected to stay very central and relatively static. I saw a stat from the 2012 Euros saying that the German striker Mario Gomez had been in possession a total of 18 seconds in a game, scoring twice - this was outdone by Shevchenko who scored twice with only 15 seconds possession. 1 in 3 goals in the Premier League are scored from set-plays - that is just the way English football is to be honest and whilst I agree that it would be good to see some Norwich goals that aren''t a result of individual brilliance I don''t think Norwich are so different to other teams. Howson''s goal v Arsenal wasn''t a ''screamer'' but a well worked move down the left flank.

[PurpleCanary 6,381]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Sorry Norwich have not and do not play 4-3-3 and if they did they certainly haven''t been playing the correct personnel. [/quote]

 

They have. Hughton has said it, numerous match reports have said it, many Norwich fans say it, opposing managers have been saying it. I can''t understand why some people still think it hasn''t been that way.

 

Pilkington and Snodgrass are fine players to play in the wider positions, both good at tucking inside and both have good work rates. Snodgrass isn''t hugely clinical but Pilkington is a good goalscorer.

 

When the strikers have been playing in the 4-3-3 they have had a lot more touches of the ball - as evidenced at Stoke, Chelsea and Cardiff in particular. Arsenal was always unlikely to hearld a striking''s delight, but I remember seeing that Hooper touched the ball as often as RvP did in the same weekend.

 

For most teams strikers are hardly the most involved players, especially if a formation like a 4-2-3-1 is used as the ''1'' is expected to stay very central and relatively static. I saw a stat from the 2012 Euros saying that the German striker Mario Gomez had been in possession a total of 18 seconds in a game, scoring twice - this was outdone by Shevchenko who scored twice with only 15 seconds possession. 1 in 3 goals in the Premier League are scored from set-plays - that is just the way English football is to be honest and whilst I agree that it would be good to see some Norwich goals that aren''t a result of individual brilliance I don''t think Norwich are so different to other teams. Howson''s goal v Arsenal wasn''t a ''screamer'' but a well worked move down the left flank.

[/quote]

 

Be gladly corrected but I think our first two goals on Saturday are the only ones we''ve scored in the league from set pieces this season.

[KeelansGlove 0]

I would tend to agree that labels count for little although if I were to suggest playing a recognized striker as a wide forward at any point everybody throws there hands up in the air to declare that Hooper or RVW are no Sturridge or Welbeck

I''d love to see Redmond in Behind a striker think it would terrify then opposition and of all the players we have he at least looks up before taking aim.

I would agree that Pilks is probably the most likely of the rest of our players to get into the box but if you are going to consider that 4-3-3 is the formation then the opposite wide player should always be backing up when a ball is crossed.

I''m truly baffled though if after this long and our goal scoring record people would not see this as a major flaw in Hughtons gameplan.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"]

[quote user="KeelansGlove"]Sorry Norwich have not and do not play 4-3-3 and if they did they certainly haven''t been playing the correct personnel. [/quote]

 

They have. Hughton has said it, numerous match reports have said it, many Norwich fans say it, opposing managers have been saying it. I can''t understand why some people still think it hasn''t been that way.

 

Pilkington and Snodgrass are fine players to play in the wider positions, both good at tucking inside and both have good work rates. Snodgrass isn''t hugely clinical but Pilkington is a good goalscorer.

 

When the strikers have been playing in the 4-3-3 they have had a lot more touches of the ball - as evidenced at Stoke, Chelsea and Cardiff in particular. Arsenal was always unlikely to hearld a striking''s delight, but I remember seeing that Hooper touched the ball as often as RvP did in the same weekend.

 

For most teams strikers are hardly the most involved players, especially if a formation like a 4-2-3-1 is used as the ''1'' is expected to stay very central and relatively static. I saw a stat from the 2012 Euros saying that the German striker Mario Gomez had been in possession a total of 18 seconds in a game, scoring twice - this was outdone by Shevchenko who scored twice with only 15 seconds possession. 1 in 3 goals in the Premier League are scored from set-plays - that is just the way English football is to be honest and whilst I agree that it would be good to see some Norwich goals that aren''t a result of individual brilliance I don''t think Norwich are so different to other teams. Howson''s goal v Arsenal wasn''t a ''screamer'' but a well worked move down the left flank.

[/quote]

 

Be gladly corrected but I think our first two goals on Saturday are the only ones we''ve scored in the league from set pieces this season.

[/quote]

 

I think that is correct - the stats I quote are for all goals scored in the League, by all teams.

 

Anyway, with 2 of Norwich''s 9 goals now from set-plays that puts them at about 22%, not that far off 33% [;)]

[KeelansGlove 0]

Well I guess we will have to agree too disagree neither Snodgrass of Pilkington get into the box enough to be consistent goalscorers and as I said before If we are relying on Howson and Redmond from 30+ yards we may as well start praying as that''s just as likely to keep us up.

I would disagree that the strikers had any more touches of the ball in any game other than perhaps the Cardiff game and that was only because we had such overwhelming control of the all without creating one clear cut chance.

And if you are correct and what we are currently being served is the best we can hope for (which I do not agree with as I watch MOTD regularly) then maybe I should give up my season ticket after 35 years.

[KeelansGlove 0]

OK lets look at our goals scored and see how well the system is working.

Everton

Great individual goal from a full back hardly something worked out on the training field.

Mishit shot turns in to great cross, if only we could make such mistakes on a regular basis.

Southampton

Long range hit and hope, great goal though.

Stoke

Long range hit and hope, poor goalkeeping

Chelsea

Decent cross knock down and goal, wonder how often we have even tried an early cross or indeed got 2 people in the box

Arsenal

Right place right time decent strike

West Ham

Penalty

Great Free Kick (whats new welcome back Mr Snodgrass)

Last minute run and strike, still cant quite workout how the keeper managed not to save it although I guess he had one of those days.

So the system is working ? that''s good to know.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

Firstly, the system was only put in place for the games from Stoke to Cardiff. I never said it was working wonderfully, but it was growing in effectiveness - unfortunately for Norwich 2 of the best 3 performances all season have come against Chelsea and Arsenal (the being the beating Southampton, which shouldn''t be so overlooked as it is amoungst most fans, this is a team who currently sit 3rd in the League and have the best defence - Norwich made them look very ordinary.)

 

It is flawed logic to just look at the actual goals, a truer stat is chances created - since the 4-3-3 was put in place Norwich starting creating a lot more chances and keeping a lot more possession of the football. I know results are the most important thing, and goals create results - but if a team is playing well and making chances it is a lot more likely to progress over a season. The goals against Chelsea and Arsenal showed that Norwich are capable of getting men forward and creating chances that don''t rely on long-shots (not that there is anything wrong with a shot from outside the box when you have someone of Howson''s quality) and if Norwich can create chances against Chelsea and Arsenal they can do it against anyone.

 

I watch a lot of Premier League football, it''s my job, and there are few teams outside the top 5 who regulary create chances by working the ball into the box in neat passing movements - most goals are from set pieces, long-shots or player error leading to chances. Goals from inside the box are generally a long ball headed in - Norwich don''t have a big target man so don''t expect to see a huge amount of those this season. If you just watch the MOTD highlights to get an idea of how other teams play you are generally only going to see their best bits, as those are what make up highlights - you don''t get the majortiy of the game which is players making sloppy passes, guys running into cul-de-sacs of defenders or flick-ons that no one reaches.

[KeelansGlove 0]

I would agree that we are seeing much more possession and passing the ball much better in midfield but I don''t buy the fact that this says anything about our overall play if anything it makes it even clearer we don''t have a clue how to attack.

Im sorry ive seen every second of Norwich play this season and I do not see any sign of improved chances being created and personally I see the 31 chances from the Cardiff game as representative of this. We are either shooting from the wrong place or with the wrong people (or both)

I would disagree re goals in the box, running with the ball or passing should be they way to create clear cut chances in the box.