35K Capacity Stadium

[Lets be aving you! 0]

"Will people stop going on about glory hunters

The attendance at CR has been increasing year on year even through the bad times."

 

Well spotted. It is beyond me how anyone can seriously argue that lots of people are "glory hunting" given our record of one vaguely important troply in 100 years. Especially as it is arguably even less likely that we will repeat the achievement, given the advent of the super-rich mega-club.

[Bill 1,788]

"Who are youngsters with no existing allegiance and living in, say, south Lincs or North Cambs "supposed" to support, in the absence of a league football club, or are they by definition "glory hunters"?"

By your definition yes.

Were City to be playing football at the level of the clubs mentioned would they chose us ?

[Rob Sims 0]

I read the last two pages and am none the wiser what point is being made.

OP, it is great to see the board plan to invest in infrastructure of the club should the players on the pitch continue their upward march. The future of the club depends on it, will Norwich get 35,000 fans every week? Probably not, but it does give a larger revenue stream which will allow Norwich to compete against clubs from 7th to 20th. Rather than currently, we''re competing essentialy solely against 18th - 20th.

They could encourage more away fans if they struggle to get Norwich fans to fill the seats or they can reduce prices to encourage more local fans. Lots of options.

[Lets be aving you! 0]

"Were City to be playing football at the level of the clubs mentioned would they chose us?"

 

By your definition you are supposed to choose the closest club geographically to you, or else you are a glory hunter.

 

Does that mean that any NCFC fans living in, say, King''s Lynn (43 miles from Norwich, but only 36 miles from Peterborough) are also glory hunters? Or maybe they are "supposed" just to support Lynn and never set foot in FCR?

 

[Gerry Harrison 2]

[quote user="Lambert is god"]Who are youngsters with no existing allegiance and living in, say, south Lincs or North Cambs "supposed" to support, in the absence of a league football club[/quote]When I last looked Peterborough United were in The Championship!

[Lets be aving you! 0]

"When I last looked Peterborough United were in The Championship!"

 

Indeed, Gerry. Hence my point about who you are supposed to support if you are in King''s Lynn (Peterborough being actually geographically nearer, but Lynn FC being the nearest).

 

Similar applies to a lot of west Suffolk and much of Cambridgeshire, where Norwich is nearer or equidistant to Ip5w1ch and Peterborough.

 

[PurpleCanary 5,592]

To reiterate, I suspect we will have to go to 35,000, because of the ocasional need and the possible dream scenario of everything working out well in the medium- to long-term. All the potential plus factors coming good and none of the negative ones.

 

But I am still afraid the club has, as said earlier, worked out what attendance figure would mean us breaking even and then convinced itself that is achievable. At the AGM in January Bowkett said their research showed they would regularly - not very occasionally - fill a 35,000-seater stadium. And at that AGM McNally backed that up: "If there is no major investor we have to make the club self-sustainable and in the Premier League we would have to have 35,000.”  Presumably he means gates most or all of the times of 35,000, since you are not going to base a business model on only very occasional sell-out crowds, but on the norm.

 

Yet no-one on this thread has claimed that is likely. The consensus among the pro-increase posters is gates of 35,000 few times a season and an average of around 30,000. That means some gates well below 30,000.

 

And grantroederdisaster, who is all in favour of 35,000, is actually more pessimistic than that in terms of what the average might be: "I''m sure if we became etablished in the Premiership and became a Bolton like sort of club hanging around mid table all the time interest may wane but we''d still average 28,000+ in a 30000+ Carrow Road."

 

Does the club''s research really show (when our highest ever average League attendance was just over 28,000) that there are 8,000 extra fans out there  who would turn pretty much every game? Or is that a piece of wishful thinking based on what they have worked out is the financial necessity? It is a not unknown phenomenon in business, to overestimate demand for a new product. It happens with people starting up newspapers particularly.

 

Bear in mind, this is a massive decison. £20m just for the buildings costs. Plus the interim lost revenue, estimated by the club at £1.4m. We are still in debt, to the tune of £16m, and having to pay interest on most of that debt. Yes, if we stay in the PL we get loads of dosh. But costs rise enormously as well. And we have - in football terms - penniless owners.

[littletinsoldier 0]

This is the first time I have posted on the Pink ''Un and I have decided to choose this debate around stadium capacity. Having read through all the posts in this forum I have a few points that I would like to make, so please bear with me.

Firstly, with regard to ''glory hunters'' or new fans or whatever, we simply have to welcome this as a club. I''m 30 years old and have been a city fan all my life. Although my Dad took me to games as a very young kid, my first memory was the Newcastle game in 87. However, this is the first season that I have had a season ticket.

This might make me a glory hunter because I have applied for a ticket now we are in the Prem. But the real reason is quite simple, this is the first time in my adult life that I have been able to afford one. I have a ticket with two mates, one a fellow lifelong fan and another who supported Man Utd until last year. He is openly a glory hunter, but would now claim to be a Norwich fan. Ok, we give him a fair amount of abuse about it, but at the end of the day his money is going into the club. He is also going to be a father and will no doubt raise his kid to support the canaries. So, should he be made unwelcome at the club?

Norfolk is growing much faster than other areas of the UK. The A11 is finally going to be dulled which will further increase the population of the city, and the county. We have to capitalise on this - young kids will want to see football and we should be keen for them to come to Carrow Road. In the future they will be canaries.

This is all evidence, in my opinion, to support the decision to increase capacity. There are other factors too - we need to shed this little old Norwich tag and show the world (and I mean the world now that we''re back where we belong) that we mean business. There is no point dragging up stats about past attendances because the city, and county has changed a lot in the last 15-20 years. And in the coming years it will change again.

There is also no point comparing us to other clubs like Bolton because in that part of England there are so many clubs to choose from. I''m sure many people living in Bolton support Blackburn, Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Everton, Burnley, Stockport, Oldham, Preston etc. In Norfolk it''s city of the Linnets as Stephen Fry said.

The population of Norfolk is over 800,000 and will increase. There is no Prem club in Lincolnshire, Cambridgeshire or Suffolk. Anyone who wants to see PL football in the eastern region will look to us, and we should capitalise on it.

The final point I want to make is that our greatest assets are actually Lambert, McNally and Bowkett. To keep them all we have to ensure that the club''s ambition match theirs - Lambert is destined for great things and we need to keep him as long as possible. He can see that we have the potential to be a bigger club and we, as fans, should support him.

We have got to forget the past now. Move forward with ambition, hunger and desire to become better. A better team, a bigger ground, a bigger and better club.

OTBC

[Shaun Tilly Lace 0]

To those who doubt we could justify a 35k capacity stadium; I give you Southampton, Leicester and Derby - 3 clubs similar in size to City. All three were selling out their 32 to 33k capacity stadia most weeks when they were in the Premiership. Derby were even getting 30k plus attendances in the Championship in their first year of relegation from the top flight. Whether these 3 clubs'' prices were as steep as ours is another matter, of course. I have my doubts as to whether there are another 7 to 8,000 people in this area who can''t wait to stump £33 to £43 to watch 90 minutes of football.

[Rob Sims 0]

Good post LTS.

I''d rather money was invested in the club than pi$$ed away on inflated premiership wages. Norwich have sold land to make ends meet and this cannot carry on forever.

Investing in the stadium is permanent and creates an improved revenue stream. once it is in place, it is not expensive to maintain.

[Bill 1,788]

" So, should he be made unwelcome at the club? "

Well at least you haven''t broken that old forum tradition of ''making up something and replying to that instead''. No one said anyone should be made unwelcome.

" Southampton, Leicester and Derby - 3 clubs similar in size to City" .... though their population is twice that of Norwich.

The reservations being expressed are those in response to the not too bright who think that merely wishing for us to have a larger stadium is all that is required.

For the years 2010 and 2009 the income from tickets and gate money was £6.6m and £7.7m respectively. Adding an extra 8,000 seat would add a third to the income. An increase of around £2.5m in income. That would require a considerable number of years of certain sellouts to repay the building costs.

You can change the variables by upping the price of the season tickets and casual ticket prices. By adding extra hospitality, food, drink etc income - but it should be borne in mind that ticket prices can be maintained high at the moment because there is excess of demand.

For all the talk of extra income from seats the club will know that the bulk of it''s income comes from TV rights. Given recent disputes that high level of payments is not certain, repaying the loan on a new stand is.

That is what is causing the debate not some idiotic claim that there are City supporters who wouldn''t want the capacity of Carrow Road to be increased.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

PurpleCanary

grantroederdisaster, who is all in favour of 35,000, is actually more pessimistic than that in terms of what the average might be: "I''m sure if we became etablished in the Premiership and became a Bolton like sort of club hanging around mid table all the time interest may wane but we''d still average 28,000+ in a 30000+ Carrow Road.

Just trying to not get carried away!

Like I''ve said before if you''d of told any sane fan in the 80''s and 90''s that we''d average 24500+ in a 2nd Division relegation campaign then 24,700 the next season in the 3rd Division from 2008-10 you''d of been laughed at!

I never thought we''d ever average 20,000+ ever again.

It certainly would of amused me!

I certainly think we could average 30,000 in the Premiership!

Just cause we wouldn''t get 35,000 every game doesn''t make having a 35,000 capcity stadium unjustifiable!

If having a 35,000 capacity stadium meant we were able to get average crowds of 30-33,000 then that would be better the current situation which is holding the club back!

Many people including myself one of the more optimistic sorts underestimate the potential of Norwich City and another factor is build it and people will come. The amount of people who''ve came out of the woodwork in recent years is amazign and I think theirs more out there who''d come if we had the space!

Like a previou poster says messrs Lambert, Mcnally and Bowkett are our best assets, they don''t p*ss about and can see the potential of the club. We won''t get any bigger or better with the current capacity but we would with a 35,000 capacity stadium.

While Robert Chase done a lot of good for the club he also held it back by subscribing to the little Norwich tag. Recent years have proved if the club push a little harder then the club can be bigger than it ever has before!

Another factor is we will have more chance of holding onto the brilliant Lambert and Mcnally if we increased ground capacity!

Keeping the present capacity when we regularly almost sell out is not good business!

[Ultramagnetic 0]

[quote user="City1st"]" .

" Southampton, Leicester and Derby - 3 clubs similar in size to City" .... though their population is twice that of Norwich. [/quote]Actually, that''s not strictly correct.Populations of urban/built up areas:-Leicester 441,213Southampton 304,400 Norwich 259,100Derby 236,300

You fail to take into account that a large percentage of those clubs supporters dont actually live in the cities themselves but in the surrounding areas, of which Norwich has a catchment area equivalent to or bigger than those three other clubs.  Plus Leicester, Southampton and Derby all have several other professional clubs close nearby, unlike Norwich.

[star_manic 0]

[quote user="Dave"]Will people stop going on about glory hunters

The attendance at CR has been increasing year on year even through the bad times.

Just because someone does not hold a ST does not make them a glory hunter, many people cant get to a match due to work commitments, family commitments or just cant afford it.

We can hardly be a glory team the last major trophy the club won was in 1985[/quote]...........well said. for myself as a pensioner a trip to a match at the carra sets me backover a ton which i can no way afford, so am limited to going to away matches in my area, which this season is zero as the nearest premier ground to me is probably manchester, nearly 100 miles away, nothing in yorks,lincs or notts which are areas i usually attend games.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

For those doubting Toms -

Average crowd figures for League games at Carrow Road

2001/02 - Average ATT = 18,000+ (under 4000 short of full capacity)

2002/03 - 20,000+ (under 2000 short of full capacity)

2003/04 - 18,000+ (Jarold stand was being built for over half of the season so the capacity for half the season was 16,000)

2004/05 - 24,000 (ground capacity was 24500 for most of season till the Jarold stand infill was built)

2005/06 - 24,000+ less than 1500 short of full useable capacity.

2006/07 - 24,000+ "

2007/08 - 24,000+ in a season where we only avoided relegation in penultimate game.

2008/09 - over 24,500. Under short 1000 short of full useable capacity in a season when we got relegated to the 3rd Division for the first time in 49 years!

2009/10 - 24700+ less than 800 short of full useable capacity watching our first season in the 3rd Division since 1960!

2010/11 - 25,000+ - under 1500 short of the useable capacity!

2011/12 - I doubt we''ll see a League crowd under 26,000 this season, less than 500 short of useable capacity!

These figures which are some the highest in the Country when using the % of stadium places sold on average indicate that Norwich City have a genuine presing need to increase the ground capacity of Carrow Road!

Like a previous poster says - Its ridiculous to say that a club that can average nearly 25,000 in the 3rd Division couldn''t justify increasing ground capacity to over 30,000 when in the Premiership!

[Bill 1,788]

"Actually, that''s not strictly correct"

Changing the definition does not make it valid

"Just because someone does not hold a ST does not make them a glory hunter"

Where did anyone say that on this thread ?

Blimey, imagine having some of that lot as a defence council.

''Your honour, my client is not guilty of the charge of murder as he never stole the loaf of bread?

[YankeeCanary 0]

 

A very good first post littletinsoldier. Let''s have more of your input. Try not to let City1st put you off. I suspect he''s had a bad case of constipation for some time and hasn''t found a remedy yet. One good flush and the term "glory hunters" will disappear and he''ll move on to something new, perhaps even positive.

[Shyster 0]

I think, ladies & gentlemen, that owing to thirteen years of untold damage caused by the Labour government and the consequent steep austerity measures (which are necessary) - the time is wrong to be talking of stadia expansion.

[Bill 1,788]

constipation eh ?

a temporary blockage, as opposed to a constant in your case

[Bill 1,788]

"that owing to thirteen years of untold damage caused by the Labour government "

i don''t think the Greeks, the Italians, The Portugese (and now the French) will ever forgive them

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="Shyster"]I think, ladies & gentlemen, that owing to thirteen years of untold damage caused by the Labour government and the consequent steep austerity measures (which are necessary) - the time is wrong to be talking of stadia expansion.[/quote]

 

No. Right time. We''ll be ready for the next economic boom.

 

OTBC

[Ultramagnetic 0]

[quote user="City1st"]"Actually, that''s not strictly correct"

Changing the definition does not make it valid [/quote]

It''s as valid as your comment about the relative population of the cities mentioned. 

I very rarely post on here but I regularly read the comments.  I generally enjoy

the content of your replies but sometimes you just seem to seek

confrontation for the sake of it.  Personally I have no problem with glory hunters or johnny come latelys if they are putting money into the club.  It''s just part and parcel of today''s football, whether we like it or not. As much as I''d like to see football return to it''s working class roots: standing on the terraces and paying a couple of quid to get in.  It will never happen again at this level in English football...

[Ultramagnetic 0]

[quote user="Shyster"]I think, ladies & gentlemen, that owing to thirteen years of untold damage caused by the Labour government and the consequent steep austerity measures (which are necessary) - the time is wrong to be talking of stadia expansion.[/quote]The National Socialist Party was probably too far left for your liking.

[Shyster 0]

[quote]The National Socialist Party was probably too far left for your liking.[/quote]

I despise communism as much as I do right-wing extremism.

[littletinsoldier 0]

Thanks Yankee

City1st, I did not wish to imply that you or anyone else had said that my ex-Man Utd fan mate would not be made welcome. I replied to your post because I could not work out how to post without replying to someone else''s. No slander intended.

I was trying to make a point that some of the comments (by lots of people through the whole discussion) regarding glory hunters could give the impression that we didn''t want any new fans who were not with us through the bad times. My personal feeling is that we could really do with the money, and that if they have a good experience at St Paul''s we are far more likely to retain that support.

But anyway, as a new member of the pink un I don''t want to start any trouble with my fellow canaries!

The points I was making could be summarised by my general feelings towards the club, which are:

These are very special times.

1)We have a great, great manager who has an eye for a player the like of which I have never seen in a city manager before.

2) The players that he signs, and some of those he inherited (particularly Sir Holt) seem to realise that they are onto something special too. They love Lambert, want to play for him, want to fight for the club, and most importantly, want to play for each other. Even people like Henri Lansbury and Dani Pacheco knew that something special was going on - Pacheco wanted to come back. Barcelona-Liverpool-Norwich. Seems almost ridiculous!!

3) The manager, the board, the fans and the players are all together, in a way I have never seen before at the club (again). The great days I grew up with were special indeed, but this is so much better. We have a great stadium already which will get even better. We have a state of the art academy and training centre, we have an unrivalled position in the county and to some extent now the region.

4) We have a great board which (again) is the most professional and businesslike I have ever seen at Norwich. Bowkett, McNally, Fry - we are a well run club and we appear professional, comfortable at the top table. This is reflected on the pitch - we are not afraid of anyone. Whatever Lambert, Karsa, Culverhouse and McNally & Bowkett have it works and has so much momentum that I just can''t see us failing to be successful, even if we get relegated this season.

I am going to repeat what I said last time. We need to forget the past now and concentrate on the future.

Ok, I''ll step off the soap-box but add an aside. If building a new city stand for £20M would give us a chance of keeping hold of Lambert for a few years, in the David Moyes mould maybe, I would take it. Lambert is a steal at £20M if Any Carrol is worth £35M.

I know that there is no indication that Lambert intends to stay only if we build a new stand but it is bound to send a good message to him about where we all want to go.

These are the best times we''ve ever had given the context of modern football. Remember where we found ourselves just over two years ago, when St Paul was on the other side?

OTBC