Is the NCFC board ready, willing and able?

[Desert Fox 0]

Canary Cherub,

Is there a hint contained within your phrase "scotch mist"?

[T 190]

Ah the old preston chestnut gets a mention: The Preston that is funded by player sales and owner cash. Lower costs yes but also lower revenue so so what.I see Hull no longer gets a mention or what about Burnley or Sheff U which are funded by property development.

Glad that MY has finally worked out that the financial position of NCFC is dire when he is not busy playing with his crayons as it is for nearly all football clubs by the very nature of their business.

and Butler has the bizarre idea that paying for footballers to drive around in sportscars and SUVs is an investment so then which owner made their fortune by investing in football clubs? All football clubs in the championship are funded by their owners is not a sweeping statement it is just a fact that makes many comments on here look naive.

and since when did I started supporting Reading - better than supporting Leicester of Ipswich anyway.

and yes CC is absolutely right the duration of assets and loans should match but then I don''t see anyone on this message board funding ncfc out of the profits from timing the proprty market.

 

 

[T 190]

No sign of any Scot''s mist here - snow is not good enough.

[The Butler 0]

and Butler has the bizarre idea that paying for footballers to drive around in sportscars and SUVs is an investment so then which owner made their fortune by investing in football clubs? All football clubs in the championship are funded by their owners is not a sweeping statement it is just a fact that makes many comments on here look naive.

Mr.T the usual bull.

Average loss!! Again range of loss -1p to many millions?

No where have I said that paying players was a good investment. Buying them cheap and selling on at a profit is a good investment.

Bring youth through and selling that''s a good investment.

Having good enough players to at least STAY in a division that pays decent money. That is an investment. Providing fans with decent football to watch so they keep returning(in our case it does not seem to matter so much) That''s a good investment.

Who has made a profit? Not an expert, but Sullivan and Gold have.

I am sure with your in at the FL you can come up with better answers than trying to quote statements I haven''t made.

By the way it''s the OWNERS who have got football into the spirraling costs situation not the fans.

They needed to make sure that when they voted for a deeper trough that they can keep their snout in it!

[T 190]

A football club is not a fianacial investment - I think you will find that Sullivan and Gold made their money out of "publishing" not football. Yes it is possible to make money out of football but only in the same way that is is possible to make money out of pyramid selling - the underlying asset has no cash flow value.. That is not bull that is fact. Next you will be telling me you still believe in Father Christmas. Sorry but I would rather take the views of someone who has reviewed the finances of a football club professionally, Deloittes, the chairman of the football league and PC rather than over some ill informed, naive, prejudiced views.

[CanaryPurple 0]

[quote user="The Butler"]

Who has made a profit? Not an expert, but Sullivan and Gold have.

[/quote]Butler, I think the point was about whether clubs (and Championship clubs in particular) can make a profit. Not whether owners can.Sullivan and Gold personally profited by selling out.With Birmingham the club it is another matter. 2007 (in the Championship) it was a loss of £6.6m. The next year (in the Premier League) it was a profit of £4.3m. For 2009 (back in the Championship) no figures I can find as yet.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="The Butler"]

Who has made a profit? Not an expert, but Sullivan and Gold have.

[/quote]

Butler, I think the point was about whether clubs (and Championship clubs in particular) can make a profit. Not whether owners can.

Sullivan and Gold personally profited by selling out.

With Birmingham the club it is another matter. 2007 (in the Championship) it was a loss of £6.6m. The next year (in the Premier League) it was a profit of £4.3m. For 2009 (back in the Championship) no figures I can find as yet.[/quote]

The statement was "which owner made money out of investing in a football club"

My answer stands. They sold at a profit.

PC/CP I did not start on profits of clubs. My point(not prejudiced) was that investing out of your knowledge base (in our case land) and supporting that investment from within the clubs funds (as it does) must reduce the money available to that club to invest in the playing staff.

Thus reducing our ability to regain our league status.

All the other aspects have been bulled up by mighty Mr.T. His jibes don''t really hold water or weight as far as I am concerned.

 

[T 190]

My point was which football owner got rich in the first place by putting money into football - I can''t think of anyone. Yes you can make money if someone pays more money for the club than you did but the underlying cash flows of a football club are generally worthless as football clubs are not self-financing so putting money into football clubs is just like buying CDOs - eventually as the underlying asset is worthless from a cash flow point of view you have a problem. Most people lose money out of owning a football club. You can argue one instance but that ignores the reality for the majority of clubs.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]

The statement was "which owner made money out of investing in a football club"

My answer stands. They sold at a profit.[/quote]

But surely Butler, this is the point.  Gold and Sullivan took a low-status club, brought it into the Premiership, and then sold on, making money for themselves.  D & MWJ have attempted to make the club stand on its own two feet by diversifying, not to make money for themselves, but to ensure the long-term future of the club.  They did the opposite of what most fans would do because they thought / hoped that Worthington / Roeder / Gunn would protect their league status with the money they had provided.It seems that D & Ms'' greatest critics are keen to see short term gain at the expense of long term security, and why not, most clubs seem to be run that way, from the debt leveraging at the top of the game at Man Utd and Liverpool (fans who buy the clubs in installments for foreigners who will eventually sell on at a profit), to the championship clubs that chuck money into the well to get themselves out of the pit and into the promised land.  On that basis, Norwich are very different from most clubs.

[BigFish 1,988]

Fantastic the same old tired arguments trotted out on both sides!Last time I looked it seemed like we had recruited a new manager for whom the approval ratings are pretty high, just won two away cup ties, as another thread points out have turned out 18 new players, the team''s form is good, we are in the play offs and could look at an automatic place.Strangely this doesn''t make everyone happy?

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]

Divnah  knar whit yez talkin aboot yah borin'' tossah.....Arz justa fat Geordie.....(apparently). Oh, and tomorrow, I''ll be a binner......(probably)....

Well, this forum is quite evidently divided....I know where I sit.....and you sit where you sit.....

I''m not really a binner, or a fat Geordie....Are you a borin'' tossah though?....(apparently)....(probably)....

[/quote]If I''m so borin'', why dignify my post with a reply ?The Geordie nation haven''t been very successful at moanin'' an'' whinin'' an'' whingin'' Cashley out of St James''es, have they ?  Oh, sorry, that''s sportsdirect.com@stajameses''park.nutjob now isn''t it...

[nutty nigel 7,644]

Are Sullivan and Gold the exception or the norm? Is there loads of owners out there like that or did they just get lucky. Buying Birmingham City post administration for probably less than 1m they surely couldn''t fail to make a profit in the end?

 

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="BigFish"]Fantastic the same old tired arguments trotted out on both sides!Last time I looked it seemed like we had recruited a new manager for whom the approval ratings are pretty high, just won two away cup ties, as another thread points out have turned out 18 new players, the team''s form is good, we are in the play offs and could look at an automatic place.Strangely this doesn''t make everyone happy?[/quote]Because most people are only happy when they are moanin''.  Oh, and because if you wanted to get to the Premiership - you wouldn''t start from here.

[CanaryPurple 0]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="The Butler"]

Who has made a profit? Not an expert, but Sullivan and Gold have.

[/quote]Butler, I think the point was about whether clubs (and Championship clubs in particular) can make a profit. Not whether owners can.Sullivan and Gold personally profited by selling out.With Birmingham the club it is another matter. 2007 (in the Championship) it was a loss of £6.6m. The next year (in the Premier League) it was a profit of £4.3m. For 2009 (back in the Championship) no figures I can find as yet.[/quote]

The statement was "which owner made money out of investing in a football club"

My answer stands. They sold at a profit.

PC/CP I did not start on profits of clubs. My point(not prejudiced) was that investing out of your knowledge base (in our case land) and supporting that investment from within the clubs funds (as it does) must reduce the money available to that club to invest in the playing staff.

Thus reducing our ability to regain our league status.

All the other aspects have been bulled up by mighty Mr.T. His jibes don''t really hold water or weight as far as I am concerned.

 

[/quote]Butler, apologies. In the excitement of reading through this thread I missed that line! However the subsequent answer from T also has merit. Sullivan and Gold did not make their fortunes out of football. They simply added to it by selling out. And for every Sullivan/Gold there is a Mike Ashley!

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Are Sullivan and Gold the exception or the norm? Is there loads of owners out there like that or did they just get lucky. Buying Birmingham City post administration for probably less than 1m they surely couldn''t fail to make a profit in the end?

 

[/quote]

What did DS/MWJ pay for the shares from Bob?

Lucky and very astute business men. Run as a business not an expensive toy.

Still as you say, at 70 what else can she do[:D]

She could do a Madona and adopt Smudger, now there''s a thought for Christmas.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="The Butler"]

Who has made a profit? Not an expert, but Sullivan and Gold have.

[/quote]

Butler, I think the point was about whether clubs (and Championship clubs in particular) can make a profit. Not whether owners can.

Sullivan and Gold personally profited by selling out.

With Birmingham the club it is another matter. 2007 (in the Championship) it was a loss of £6.6m. The next year (in the Premier League) it was a profit of £4.3m. For 2009 (back in the Championship) no figures I can find as yet.[/quote]

The statement was "which owner made money out of investing in a football club"

My answer stands. They sold at a profit.

PC/CP I did not start on profits of clubs. My point(not prejudiced) was that investing out of your knowledge base (in our case land) and supporting that investment from within the clubs funds (as it does) must reduce the money available to that club to invest in the playing staff.

Thus reducing our ability to regain our league status.

All the other aspects have been bulled up by mighty Mr.T. His jibes don''t really hold water or weight as far as I am concerned.

 

[/quote]

Butler, apologies. In the excitement of reading through this thread I missed that line! However the subsequent answer from T also has merit. Sullivan and Gold did not make their fortunes out of football. They simply added to it by selling out. And for every Sullivan/Gold there is a Mike Ashley![/quote]

CP as usual accusations are made (by some) about statements not made.

The figures produced by Deolites no doubt reflect the Champ position. I remember in the not distant past when the club was turning a smallish profit. How does that fit in.

All I am saying is that averages can be very deceptive. IF our club made a loss say of 1million and we were servicing a loan at a cost of 1million does this not distort the true picture.(made up figures before I am quoted)

Yes it is in simple terms but I really can''t be bothered to look at right offs, depreciation etc.

This is a football message board not accountants weekly[:D]

[T 190]

My statement was not "which owner made money out of owning a football club" as Butler  misquoted- it was very deliberately "which owner made their fortune by investing in football clubs". Just as I said owners rather than MWJ/DS when I talked about subsiding the club this year.   No doubt there is someone but I can''t think of anyone as Nutty says most owners lose money subsidising football clubs so I''m still waiting for an appropriate reposte. But Butler is right football clubs do have a "bauble" value and therefore it is understandable that the owners do not want to give away control of the club for free. Big Fish is right thought that these are tired old arguments. The owners have appointed new executive maangement ( i do wonder how the owners managed to entice our new CEO and how they got our new chairman on Board though for which they deserve credit): I for one am enjoying the football at the moment as I usually do whatever happens as it is preferable to being a miserable whinging git..

[nutty nigel 7,644]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Are Sullivan and Gold the exception or the norm? Is there loads of owners out there like that or did they just get lucky. Buying Birmingham City post administration for probably less than 1m they surely couldn''t fail to make a profit in the end?

 

[/quote]

What did DS/MWJ pay for the shares from Bob?

Lucky and very astute business men. Run as a business not an expensive toy.

Still as you say, at 70 what else can she do[:D]

She could do a Madona and adopt Smudger, now there''s a thought for Christmas.

[/quote]

She never got ''em from Big Bad Bob [:O] She wasn''t the "right person with the right offer". It was Geoffrey Watling who chose to sell those shares (and his) to someone not fit and proper to buy them. Allegedly[;)]

[&][G]A Smudger''s not just for Christmas ................

 

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Are Sullivan and Gold the exception or the norm? Is there loads of owners out there like that or did they just get lucky. Buying Birmingham City post administration for probably less than 1m they surely couldn''t fail to make a profit in the end?

 

[/quote]

What did DS/MWJ pay for the shares from Bob?

Lucky and very astute business men. Run as a business not an expensive toy.

Still as you say, at 70 what else can she do[:D]

She could do a Madona and adopt Smudger, now there''s a thought for Christmas.

[/quote]

She never got ''em from Big Bad Bob [:O] She wasn''t the "right person with the right offer". It was Geoffrey Watling who chose to sell those shares (and his) to someone not fit and proper to buy them. Allegedly[;)]

[&][G]A Smudger''s not just for Christmas ................

 

[/quote]

Correction Nutty as you point out I should have said the shares that Bob had owned.

I really must get used to "everything you say will be taken apart and the disections may be used in evidence"

You can just see his little cold nose pressed against the club shop window[:''(]

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="T"]My statement was not "which owner made money out of owning a football club" as Butler  misquoted- it was very deliberately "which owner made their fortune by investing in football clubs". Just as I said owners rather than MWJ/DS when I talked about subsiding the club this year.   No doubt there is someone but I can''t think of anyone as Nutty says most owners lose money subsidising football clubs so I''m still waiting for an appropriate reposte. But Butler is right football clubs do have a "bauble" value and therefore it is understandable that the owners do not want to give away control of the club for free. Big Fish is right thought that these are tired old arguments. The owners have appointed new executive maangement ( i do wonder how the owners managed to entice our new CEO and how they got our new chairman on Board though for which they deserve credit): I for one am enjoying the football at the moment as I usually do whatever happens as it is preferable to being a miserable whinging git..[/quote]

Are you then an expert on that as well? Have we had a survey on the actual attendence figures of aforesaid people?

The football at present is excellent (quickly adds with the exception of the odd game)

I am not complaining about Lambert, Culverhouse, McNally et al. In fact I can''t find a post where I have complained about DS''s performances this year, post Gunn.

So T lets enjoy the third division and hope that enjoyment last only to May when we can look forward to enjoying Championship football again.

OTBC

[BigFish 1,988]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Are Sullivan and Gold the exception or the norm? Is there loads of owners out there like that or did they just get lucky. Buying Birmingham City post administration for probably less than 1m they surely couldn''t fail to make a profit in the end?

 

[/quote]

What did DS/MWJ pay for the shares from Bob?

Lucky and very astute business men. Run as a business not an expensive toy.

Still as you say, at 70 what else can she do[:D]

She could do a Madona and adopt Smudger, now there''s a thought for Christmas.

[/quote]Lucky & astute but he still brought the club to within days of administration.

[T 190]

[quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="T"]My statement was not "which owner made money out of owning a football club" as Butler  misquoted- it was very deliberately "which owner made their fortune by investing in football clubs". Just as I said owners rather than MWJ/DS when I talked about subsiding the club this year.   No doubt there is someone but I can''t think of anyone as Nutty says most owners lose money subsidising football clubs so I''m still waiting for an appropriate reposte. But Butler is right football clubs do have a "bauble" value and therefore it is understandable that the owners do not want to give away control of the club for free. Big Fish is right thought that these are tired old arguments. The owners have appointed new executive maangement ( i do wonder how the owners managed to entice our new CEO and how they got our new chairman on Board though for which they deserve credit): I for one am enjoying the football at the moment as I usually do whatever happens as it is preferable to being a miserable whinging git..[/quote]

Are you then an expert on that as well? Have we had a survey on the actual attendence figures of aforesaid people?

The football at present is excellent (quickly adds with the exception of the odd game)

I am not complaining about Lambert, Culverhouse, McNally et al. In fact I can''t find a post where I have complained about DS''s performances this year, post Gunn.

So T lets enjoy the third division and hope that enjoyment last only to May when we can look forward to enjoying Championship football again.

OTBC

[/quote]

Now that I do agree with.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="BigFish"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Are Sullivan and Gold the exception or the norm? Is there loads of owners out there like that or did they just get lucky. Buying Birmingham City post administration for probably less than 1m they surely couldn''t fail to make a profit in the end?

 

[/quote]

What did DS/MWJ pay for the shares from Bob?

Lucky and very astute business men. Run as a business not an expensive toy.

Still as you say, at 70 what else can she do[:D]

She could do a Madona and adopt Smudger, now there''s a thought for Christmas.

[/quote]

Lucky & astute but he still brought the club to within days of administration.
[/quote]

Who?

[nutty nigel 7,644]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Are Sullivan and Gold the exception or the norm? Is there loads of owners out there like that or did they just get lucky. Buying Birmingham City post administration for probably less than 1m they surely couldn''t fail to make a profit in the end?

 

[/quote]

What did DS/MWJ pay for the shares from Bob?

Lucky and very astute business men. Run as a business not an expensive toy.

Still as you say, at 70 what else can she do[:D]

She could do a Madona and adopt Smudger, now there''s a thought for Christmas.

[/quote]

She never got ''em from Big Bad Bob [:O] She wasn''t the "right person with the right offer". It was Geoffrey Watling who chose to sell those shares (and his) to someone not fit and proper to buy them. Allegedly[;)]

[&][G]A Smudger''s not just for Christmas ................

 

[/quote]

Correction Nutty as you point out I should have said the shares that Bob had owned.

I really must get used to "everything you say will be taken apart and the disections may be used in evidence"

You can just see his little cold nose pressed against the club shop window[:''(]

[/quote]

If everything you say is taken down and used in evidence it''s a good job your posts aren''t pants[:O]

 

[8]She won`t want a bunny or a kitty
She won`t want a parrot that talks
She won`t want a bowl of little fishies
She can`t take a goldfish for a walk

How much is that Smudger in the window? (Smith out!)
The one with the waggley tail
How much is that Smudger in the window? (Smith Out!)
I do hope that Smudger`s for sale[&]

 

[BigFish 1,988]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="BigFish"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Are Sullivan and Gold the exception or the norm? Is there loads of owners out there like that or did they just get lucky. Buying Birmingham City post administration for probably less than 1m they surely couldn''t fail to make a profit in the end?

 

[/quote]

What did DS/MWJ pay for the shares from Bob?

Lucky and very astute business men. Run as a business not an expensive toy.

Still as you say, at 70 what else can she do[:D]

She could do a Madona and adopt Smudger, now there''s a thought for Christmas.

[/quote]Lucky & astute but he still brought the club to within days of administration.[/quote]

Who?

[/quote]Fat Bob

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="BigFish"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="BigFish"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Are Sullivan and Gold the exception or the norm? Is there loads of owners out there like that or did they just get lucky. Buying Birmingham City post administration for probably less than 1m they surely couldn''t fail to make a profit in the end?

 

[/quote]

What did DS/MWJ pay for the shares from Bob?

Lucky and very astute business men. Run as a business not an expensive toy.

Still as you say, at 70 what else can she do[:D]

She could do a Madona and adopt Smudger, now there''s a thought for Christmas.

[/quote]

Lucky & astute but he still brought the club to within days of administration.
[/quote]

Who?

[/quote]
Fat Bob
[/quote]

Read the post big fish. The reference was to Gold and Sullivan.The clue is in MEN, Bob was big but not that big[:D]

[BigFish 1,988]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="BigFish"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="BigFish"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Are Sullivan and Gold the exception or the norm? Is there loads of owners out there like that or did they just get lucky. Buying Birmingham City post administration for probably less than 1m they surely couldn''t fail to make a profit in the end?

 

[/quote]

What did DS/MWJ pay for the shares from Bob?

Lucky and very astute business men. Run as a business not an expensive toy.

Still as you say, at 70 what else can she do[:D]

She could do a Madona and adopt Smudger, now there''s a thought for Christmas.

[/quote]Lucky & astute but he still brought the club to within days of administration.[/quote]

Who?

[/quote]Fat Bob[/quote]

Read the post big fish. The reference was to Gold and Sullivan.The clue is in MEN, Bob was big but not that big[:D]

[/quote][:$] I stand corrected Mr Butler (though since when has actually reading the posts stopped anyone on her posting!)

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="T"]

My point was which football owner got rich in the first place by putting money into football - I can''t think of anyone.[/quote]

While the Edwards family had a butchery business, their family wealth increased considerably as a result of selling their holding in Manchester United.

Mandraic or however you spell his name, probably doubled his wealth when he sold Portsmouth.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="T"]

Ah the old preston chestnut gets a mention: The Preston that is funded by player sales and owner cash. Lower costs yes but also lower revenue so so what.

[/quote]

You are so predictable at swerving away from the issue. The issue was the difference between NCFC''s   COST BASE and Preston''s COST BASE. Revenues and how the funding gaps of each club is funded is a different issue.

As I have said before the near £10m. gap in the COST BASE can be partly accountable by the catering operation at Carrow Rd. and we pay our players more but that still leaves a sizeable difference to be explained. Even more so given that Preston are able to compete at the upper end of the Championship and we are in Division 3 (old money) for the first time in fifty years. 

 

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="T"]

Ah the old preston chestnut gets a mention: The Preston that is funded by player sales and owner cash. Lower costs yes but also lower revenue so so what.

[/quote]

You are so predictable at swerving away from the issue. The issue was the difference between NCFC''s   COST BASE and Preston''s COST BASE. Revenues and how the funding gaps of each club is funded is a different issue.

As I have said before the near £10m. gap in the COST BASE can be partly accountable by the catering operation at Carrow Rd. and we pay our players more but that still leaves a sizeable difference to be explained. Even more so given that Preston are able to compete at the upper end of the Championship and we are in Division 3 (old money) for the first time in fifty years.