Stop the War's Legacy in Afghanistan.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,103]

Good job, Jeremy.

Edited May 16 by littleyellowbirdie

[cambridgeshire canary 7,697]

You think that's bad? Here's a "cultral right" of many Afghan men.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi

[horsefly 5,281]

On 16/05/2024 at 07:55, littleyellowbirdie said:

Good job, Jeremy.

What an absolutely ridiculous post. Are you seriously suggesting that anyone took a blind bit of notice of the Stop the War campaign? This was entirely down to Trump and his negotiation with the Taliban to withdraw all US troops from Afghanistan unconditionally. A negotiation he conducted without the presence of the Afghan government or any of the NATO allies. 

[littleyellowbirdie 3,103]

11 hours ago, horsefly said:

What an absolutely ridiculous post. Are you seriously suggesting that anyone took a blind bit of notice of the Stop the War campaign? This was entirely down to Trump and his negotiation with the Taliban to withdraw all US troops from Afghanistan unconditionally. A negotiation he conducted without the presence of the Afghan government or any of the NATO allies. 

Don't be so stupid. If campaigning/protesting didn't make a difference within democracies nobody would do it. Trump did it because abandoning Afghanistan was a popular notion (populist even) because of scum like Corbyn/Abbott/Stop the War and their American opposite numbers in left wing circles.

Trump did it because 'war in Afghanistan bad', a popularly held opinion thanks to these morons. Trump also knew that this would be popular among the left of the democrats, creating a nightmare for Biden.

Stop the War and co provided perpetual morale boosts for the Taliban over their 20 years in the mountains. The very knowledge of their campaigning will have played a part in the Taliban keeping going in Afghanistan .

And here is the outcome for Afghanistan thanks to these stupid lefties, their 'principles' and their influence on public opinion

 

Edited May 18 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 5,281]

12 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Don't be so stupid. If campaigning/protesting didn't make a difference within democracies nobody would do it. Trump did it because abandoning Afghanistan was a popular notion (populist even) because of scum like Corbyn/Abbott/Stop the War and their American opposite numbers in left wing circles.

Trump did it because 'war in Afghanistan bad', a popularly held opinion thanks to these morons. Trump also knew that this would be popular among the left of the democrats, creating a nightmare for Biden.

Stop the War and co provided perpetual morale boosts for the Taliban over their 20 years in the mountains. The very knowledge of their campaigning will have played a part in the Taliban keeping going in Afghanistan .

And here is the outcome for Afghanistan thanks to these stupid lefties, their 'principles' and their influence on public opinion

 

Absolute bollox! But that's no surprise. Moron!

[BroadstairsR 2,272]

On 16/05/2024 at 09:08, cambridgeshire canary said:

You think that's bad? Here's a "cultral right" of many Afghan men.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi

Read "The Kite Runner" Khaled Hosseini for confirmation.

Using young boys for satisfaction is commonplace, whereas homosexuals are stoned to death, as are wives who stray.

Obscenely backward culture, now ruled by fanatics and uneducated village boys with guns.

Another fine mess, UK, Russia, US.

 

Edited May 19 by BroadstairsR

[littleyellowbirdie 3,103]

14 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Read "The Kite Runner" Khaled Hosseini for confirmation.

Using young boys for satisfaction is commonplace, whereas homosexuals are stoned to death, as are wives who stray.

Obscenely backward culture, now ruled by fanatics and uneducated village boys with guns.

Another fine mess, UK, Russia, US.

 

Yeah, absolutely. The cold war played a huge part in sending Afghanistan down the pan, support for the Taliban then can be chalked down to another terrible decision that really underlines that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' really is utter rubbish.

That said 20 years of NATO presence was changing it for the better as far as ordinary people were concerned. Corbyn, Stop the War and all of their ilk deserve a deep pit in hell for persistently underminining support that everyone can now see was a worthwhile thing to be doing for the scale of the suffering that our absence has caused. Trump should probably go to, but if he does, then Biden should probably go with him for not having the guts to overrule.

Edited May 19 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 3,103]

42 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Absolute bollox! But that's no surprise. Moron!

Like hell is it ****, you dishonest, worthless Labour toady. If campaigners don't matter, you definitely need to shut your trap about people who supported Brexit, Farage Reese-Mogg, Nadine Dorries etc. which has caused a damned sight less suffering than pulling out of Afghanistan has!

Edited May 19 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 11,112]

2 hours ago, horsefly said:

Absolute bollox! But that's no surprise. Moron!

Aye, it's utter nonsense. A truly dreadful piece of trolling from a dreadful troll. 

[littleyellowbirdie 3,103]

29 minutes ago, Herman said:

Aye, it's utter nonsense. A truly dreadful piece of trolling from a dreadful troll. 

Shouldn't you get back to your stupid Brexit thread?

So what's your view then? Are you alright with the suffering in Afghanistan that has been caused by our withdrawal? No? You agree that all of the year's of campaigning and street protests had nothing to do with influencing public opinion against our presence in Afghanistan?

If pointing out the inconsistency, dishonesty and hypocrisy of people like you is trolling then I've no problem with being called that.

Edited May 19 by littleyellowbirdie

[Naturalcynic 817]

5 hours ago, Herman said:

Aye, it's utter nonsense. A truly dreadful piece of trolling from a dreadful troll. 

I have to say that I’m not sure that marches in the UK by the likes of Stop the War etc would have had much, if any, effect on US foreign policy with regards Afghanistan, but I certainly think that the aims and demands of idealistic left-wingers including JC have been shown to be hopelessly naïve in this respect with the reality on the ground for ordinary Afghans reverting to a living hell.  The strident voices of the protesters were on the wrong side of history then, as they usually are, and as they almost certainly will be on the Israel/Gaza/Hamas issue.

[horsefly 5,281]

On 19/05/2024 at 10:16, littleyellowbirdie said:

Like hell is it ****, you dishonest, worthless Labour toady. If campaigners don't matter, you definitely need to shut your trap about people who supported Brexit, Farage Reese-Mogg, Nadine Dorries etc. which has caused a damned sight less suffering than pulling out of Afghanistan has!

Absolute bollox yet again. The very idea that Trump was influenced by Jeremy Corbyn or leftie protesters is beyond parody. Truly idiotic.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,103]

21 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

I have to say that I’m not sure that marches in the UK by the likes of Stop the War etc would have had much, if any, effect on US foreign policy with regards Afghanistan, but I certainly think that the aims and demands of idealistic left-wingers including JC have been shown to be hopelessly naïve in this respect with the reality on the ground for ordinary Afghans reverting to a living hell.  The strident voices of the protesters were on the wrong side of history then, as they usually are, and as they almost certainly will be on the Israel/Gaza/Hamas issue.

Then how do you account for the perpetual mood of the NATO operation in Afghanistan from very early on being a bad thing that ultimately led to its abandonment? Did those sentiments just catch on out of nowhere?

 

Edited May 20 by littleyellowbirdie

[Naturalcynic 817]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Then how do you account for the perpetual mood of the NATO operation in Afghanistan from very early on being a bad thing that ultimately led to its abandonment? Did those sentiments just catch on out of nowhere?

 

I think militarily we became more and more demoralised at what appeared to be an unwinnable asymmetric war against a committed and fanatical enemy in a country that traditionally has always resisted the presence of occupying western forces (and I include Russia in that).  The mounting toll of body bags and maimed soldiers became increasingly unsustainable for what appeared at the time to be a conflict of questionable benefit to anyone.  I’m not convinced that the idiotic Stop the War coalition and its pacifist acolytes really had that much bearing on the eventual capitulation, and I say that despite the fact that I loathe all of those far-left activist types and their pathetic demos.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,103]

27 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

I think militarily we became more and more demoralised at what appeared to be an unwinnable asymmetric war against a committed and fanatical enemy in a country that traditionally has always resisted the presence of occupying western forces (and I include Russia in that).  The mounting toll of body bags and maimed soldiers became increasingly unsustainable for what appeared at the time to be a conflict of questionable benefit to anyone.  I’m not convinced that the idiotic Stop the War coalition and its pacifist acolytes really had that much bearing on the eventual capitulation, and I say that despite the fact that I loathe all of those far-left activist types and their pathetic demos.

Respectfully, I think you grossly underestimate the effect of people making persistent noise on a subject distorting impressions and persistently putting out the false message that it was 'unwinnable'.  To win a war, it's necessary to have the resolve and also show your enemy that you have the resolve. The Taliban rallied on many occasions throughout the 20 years, in spite of huge setbacks for them on the back of spineless politicians pandering to the 'unwinnable war' nonsense.

The US had less than 3,000 soldiers killed in Afghanistan over 20 years from a military comprising over 2,000,000 personnel. Everybody can see horribly clearly now that the military presence provided massive benefits for civilians in Afghanistan.

By the time we pulled out, no NATO forces were directly involved in combat, rather they provided logistical and intelligence support for Afghan forces. Afghan forces for their part were horrifically corrupt, but nevertheless still functional with NATO support. It's not out of the question that the corruption of Afghan forces couldn't have been tackled over time to give them the foundations to be able to contain the Taliban without any NATO support beyond arms and intelligence.

What we can say is that 20 years of effort and the dead NATO soldiers that had achieved something tangible for Afghan civilians was wasted. All thanks to the myth that the price that was higher than it was, pedalled by the likes of Stop the War and their American brethren.

Edited May 20 by littleyellowbirdie

[Naturalcynic 817]

7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Respectfully, I think you grossly underestimate the effect of people making persistent noise on a subject distorting impressions and persistently putting out the false message that it was 'unwinnable'.  To win a war, it's necessary to have the resolve and also show your enemy that you have the resolve. The Taliban rallied on many occasions throughout the 20 years on the back of spineless politicians pandering to the 'unwinnable war' nonsense.

The US had less than 3,000 soldiers killed in Afghanistan over 20 years from a military comprising over 2,000,000 personnel. Everybody can see horribly clearly now that the military presence provided massive benefits for civilians in Afghanistan.

By the time we pulled out, no NATO forces were directly involved in combat, rather they provided logistical and intelligence support for Afghan forces. Afghan forces for their part were horrifically corrupt, but nevertheless still functional with NATO support. It's not out of the question that the corruption of Afghan forces couldn't have been tackled over time to give them the foundations to be able to contain the Taliban without any NATO support beyond arms and intelligence.

What we can say is that 20 years of effort that had achieved something was wasted. All thanks to the myth that the price that was higher than it was, pedalled by the likes of Stop the War and their American brethren.

What I can say as an ex-serviceman is that many in the military and the families of those killed and injured felt horribly let down by the decision-makers and that it all ended up feeling like a futile and extremely costly exercise for which many paid the ultimate sacrifice and for which precious little thanks were given, not least by the Stop the War types.

Edited May 20 by Naturalcynic

[canarydan23 4,699]

Wow.

I have exceptionally low expectations for the quality of thought in littleyellowbirdie's posts, but he's managed to not even get close to them with this pathetic attempt.

I think you might need help.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,103]

16 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Wow.

I have exceptionally low expectations for the quality of thought in littleyellowbirdie's posts, but he's managed to not even get close to them with this pathetic attempt.

I think you might need help.

Attempt on what? All I've done is share a link to some of the human suffering caused by our withdrawal from Afghanistan and suggested that those who campaigned so avidly for it within the democratic nations that make up NATO bear some responsibility? You're a smart chap; surely you can offer a coherent rebuttal if my point is as poor as you suggest?

 

 

[Naturalcynic 817]

Basically I don’t want to credit the Stop the War scum (who are essentially the same as the pro-Palestine ceasefire now lot who are happy to march with a load of pro-Islamist Jew-haters) with having had any meaningful effect on mainstream public opinion, although I do accept the gullible and idealistic student types will no doubt have swallowed it all, hook, line and sinker.

[horsefly 5,281]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Respectfully, I think you grossly underestimate the effect of people making persistent noise on a subject distorting impressions and persistently putting out the false message that it was 'unwinnable'.  To win a war, it's necessary to have the resolve and also show your enemy that you have the resolve. The Taliban rallied on many occasions throughout the 20 years, in spite of huge setbacks for them on the back of spineless politicians pandering to the 'unwinnable war' nonsense.

The US had less than 3,000 soldiers killed in Afghanistan over 20 years from a military comprising over 2,000,000 personnel. Everybody can see horribly clearly now that the military presence provided massive benefits for civilians in Afghanistan.

By the time we pulled out, no NATO forces were directly involved in combat, rather they provided logistical and intelligence support for Afghan forces. Afghan forces for their part were horrifically corrupt, but nevertheless still functional with NATO support. It's not out of the question that the corruption of Afghan forces couldn't have been tackled over time to give them the foundations to be able to contain the Taliban without any NATO support beyond arms and intelligence.

What we can say is that 20 years of effort and the dead NATO soldiers that had achieved something tangible for Afghan civilians was wasted. All thanks to the myth that the price that was higher than it was, pedalled by the likes of Stop the War and their American brethren.

Hahahahahaha! And still the utter rubbish continues. Find me a SINGLE expert who claims that Trump negotiated with the Taliban for the unconditional withdrawal of all US forces because of the influence of Jeremy Corbyn and/or the Just Stop the War campaign. Just one! Trump made it very clear that this was the direct result of his "America First" policy. He had absolutely no intention of continuing to pump billions of dollars into a cause he thought entirely irrelevant to the interests of the USA.

Continuing to flog this utterly ridiculous **** is simply making you look more and more absurd with every post. But feel free to continue, it's bloody hilarious.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,103]

10 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Find me a SINGLE expert who claims that Trump negotiated with the Taliban for the unconditional withdrawal of all US forces because of the influence of Jeremy Corbyn and/or the Just Stop the War campaign. Just one! Trump made it very clear that this was the direct result of his "America First" policy.

My God, you really are utterly ridiculous. Show me one piece of concrete evidence that  Nigel Farage made any difference to whether or not we left the EU; that's the level of how stupid your demand is. In some respects, whether or not they actually made a difference or not doesn't matter; the fact remains that they were doggedly pursuant of the abandonment of Afghanistan from early on, which has proved to be a humanitarian catastrophe and a massive blow for the civil liberties of people in Afghanistan. Whether or not they actually did make a difference is almost secondary to how their posturing is merely that, and has no regard for the real world damage their views have caused.

Also really interesting to note that Corbyn has never uttered a word about the suffering of Afghans since the pullout he so dearly wanted, any acknowledgement that the withdrawal caused it, or any regret that it caused it.

In fairness to her, Diane Abbott has done, but she actually drew back from Stop the War, presumably waking up to what it was.

Trump was playing to public opinion; public opinion was formed on the back of persistent campaigning by campaigners on the topic. In turn, Biden completed the deal because of support for the principle of abandoning Afghanistan in the wider public and in his own party.

Edited May 20 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 5,281]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

My God, you really are utterly ridiculous. Show me one piece of concrete evidence that  Nigel Farage made any difference to whether or not we left the EU.

Hahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha!!! Now we have your standard attempt to deflect from the utter crap you've been posting. But being a kindly sort of guy, here's a rather good book written by a political expert on the crucial influence of Nige on the Brexit vote and on UK politics generally (plenty of others are available, try Googling) 😞

https://www.amazon.co.uk/One-Party-After-Another-Theha/dp/1471192296

Your attempt to defend your ignorant claim is truly astonishing. But it also remains truly hilarious. So, back to your claim that Trump  was persuaded to withdraw US forces from Afghanistan by Jeremy Corbyn and the Just Stop the War campaign; feel free to name a SINGLE political/military expert who supports such a view.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,103]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Hahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha!!! Now we have your standard attempt to deflect from the utter crap you've been posting. But being a kindly sort of guy, here's a rather good book written by a political expert on the crucial influence of Nige on the Brexit vote and on UK politics generally (plenty of others are available, try Googling) 😞

https://www.amazon.co.uk/One-Party-After-Another-Theha/dp/1471192296

Your attempt to defend your ignorant claim is truly astonishing. But it also remains truly hilarious. So, back to your claim that Trump  was persuaded to withdraw US forces from Afghanistan by Jeremy Corbyn and the Just Stop the War campaign; feel free to name a SINGLE political/military expert who supports such a view.

Your typical dishonest tactics at play I see. I have not claimed Trump was persuaded by Corbyn. I've claimed people of Corbyn's ilk affected public opinion sufficiently throughout the West that Trump saw setting withdrawal in motion as a clever move to make to leave Biden with a difficult decision should he become president. Biden couldn't reverse course on Afghanistan largely because his own base is full of people of a similar persuasion of the Stop the War lobby.

Also though, while I agree with you somewhat over Trump, it is very dishonest of you to lay withdrawal all on Trump when the final decision to go ahead was on Biden's watch; Trump didn't bind Biden's hands. There's a fair bit you can say in mitigation of Biden's decision in the circumstances, but he had a choice, and he chose to follow through with what Trump started, and the peaceniks in the Democrat camp of the Sanders/Corbyn mould, will have influenced that.

And as I previously suggested, your challenge that decades of anti-war campaigning by Corbyn, Sanders, Diane Abbott, Stop the War etc. will not have influenced public opinion against the campaign in Afghanistan is just retarded.

Edited May 20 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 5,281]

12 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Your typical dishonest tactics at play I see. I have not claimed Trump was persuaded by Corbyn. I've claimed people of Corbyn's ilk affected public opinion sufficiently throughout the West that Trump saw setting withdrawal in motion as a clever move to make to leave Biden with a difficult decision should he become president. Biden couldn't reverse course on Afghanistan largely because his own base is full of people of a similar persuasion of the Stop the War lobby.

Also though, while I agree with you somewhat over Trump, it is very dishonest of you to lay withdrawal all on Trump when the final decision to go ahead was on Biden's watch; Trump didn't bind Biden's hands. There's a fair bit you can say in mitigation of Biden's decision in the circumstances, but he had a choice, and he chose to follow through with what Trump started, and the peaceniks in the Democrat camp of the Sanders/Corbyn mould, will have influenced that.

And as I previously suggested, your challenge that decades of anti-war campaigning by Corbyn, Sanders, Diane Abbott, Stop the War etc. will not have influenced public opinion against the campaign in Afghanistan is just retarded.

Absolute tosh! More than two thirds of the US troops had already been removed from Afghanistan by the time Biden came to power (about 2,000 were left). There was not the remotest possibility that Biden would or could send them back again. This was down to Trump who negotiated with the Taliban alone (NO NATO involvement, NOR the Afghan government) for the complete withdrawal of ALL US troops. He even set a date in May, that Biden had to delay for months to prevent an even worse calamity than the one that subsequently ensued.

As usual you are trying to squirm out of your original ridiculous original claim that the desertion of Afghanistan was due to Jeremy Corbyn and the Stop the War coalition. Your original post is clear for all to see. I asked you to provide me with evidence of a single political/military expert who supports your view that Trump was influenced by these groups and still you haven't supplied one. No surprise, of course, because there isn't one. Trump couldn't have been clearer himself that the Afghan withdrawal was a direct result of his "America First" policy. As far as he was concerned there was no material benefit to the US in supporting the Afghan government so he withdrew US aid. The idea that he was influenced by the "moral" arguments of STW or Corbyn is beyond laughable. You would be better served just to admit you got this one totally wrong, but the chances of that happening are, of course, as likely as NCFC winning the PL.

[KiwiScot 1,679]

I see the Taliban were at the recent Russian Davos conference.