Goals

[hogesar 9,704]

8 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

The point being that he should be in a no.10...but with someone else behind him alongside McLean to cover those gaps

That is what is mostly happening. You can literally see it from the graphics above. Take Leeds, Kenny and Gibbs behind Sara, generally. Yesterday, Forshaw and Mclean behind Sara. I agree we've not got the balance right but Sara is playing in his most effective position more often than he's not.

[repman 635]

29 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Sara's average position in most games actually ends up being that Number 10 position, which sort of expains why we're often so overloaded in midfield. Especially when he's guilty of losing the ball in dangerous areas whilst not being anywhere near alongside Mclean. 

Sara was our most forward central midfielder yesterday, occupying the 10 position most often.

Against Boro was slightly different because of Nunez, but was still relatively high.

Again against Leeds, the most forward midfielder.

So he generally plays as a 10 for us, don't get confused by just looking at lineups.

I wonder what this is based on though because he does still often drop in-between the CB's during build up. The fact he seems to do both is testament to his ability and maybe a sign of our reliance on him.

[hogesar 9,704]

13 minutes ago, repman said:

I wonder what this is based on though because he does still often drop in-between the CB's during build up. The fact he seems to do both is testament to his ability and maybe a sign of our reliance on him.

His heatmap, which does show he is sometimes deeper but so are lots of 10s

[repman 635]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

His heatmap, which does show he is sometimes deeper but so are lots of 10s

I mean that shows he's doing more in his own half than he is the opposition one. Obviously there's mitigating circumstances yesterday as we didn't really get up the pitch at all.

He definitely could be deployed further forward, both Gibbs and Nunez have played ahead of him when both are much worse at playing ahead of the ball than he is. I can only assume that's because Wagner doesn't want to play the two of them deep due to their size or he has a thing for consistency in his midfield as he does his CBs. Ultimately though I think we'd have looked better in possession had Sara and one of Gibbs/Nunez been swapped around.

[hogesar 9,704]

12 minutes ago, repman said:

I mean that shows he's doing more in his own half than he is the opposition one. Obviously there's mitigating circumstances yesterday as we didn't really get up the pitch at all.

He definitely could be deployed further forward, both Gibbs and Nunez have played ahead of him when both are much worse at playing ahead of the ball than he is. I can only assume that's because Wagner doesn't want to play the two of them deep due to their size or he has a thing for consistency in his midfield as he does his CBs. Ultimately though I think we'd have looked better in possession had Sara and one of Gibbs/Nunez been swapped around.

Boro at home probably a better example where in possession he was higher up the pitch

[Sufyellow 222]

1 hour ago, repman said:

I wonder what this is based on though because he does still often drop in-between the CB's during build up. The fact he seems to do both is testament to his ability and maybe a sign of our reliance on him.

That's the problem all our midfielders are all over the pitch causing chaos when it comes to defending , it's been a mess for a long time. 

[Google Bot 3,294]

3 minutes ago, Sufyellow said:

That's the problem all our midfielders are all over the pitch causing chaos when it comes to defending , it's been a mess for a long time. 

We think we're smarter, fitter and better than what we are, I think that's become quite clear.  And the formation switching in and out of plays works well, but much of the time we're the ones causing the switch by losing possession which undermines our own system and just adds to the mess.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Yes they were terrible errors yesterday. But they were Tuesday and the previous Saturday.

I do not like coaches who just blame the players. Of course the coach cannot help it happening on the pitch. But he has the ability to remedy it. And Wagner appears to have no ability to remedy it. 

[ged in the onion bag 856]

7 hours ago, hogesar said:

I think you're going to be hideously disappointed if we do sign a CDM as he wouldn't have made a jot of difference if our LB let's a free inside run into the penalty area and our CB loses the ball on the edge of his area. We still lose the game.

I do agree with you in these particular instances.... CDMs are necessary though for many reasons and particularly when opponents turnover the ball and counter on us... we are so exposed and have been for years....  They do get attracted to danger quite naturally and one could have stopped Clarke for their second though.   

[hogesar 9,704]

19 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

I do agree with you in these particular instances.... CDMs are necessary though for many reasons and particularly when opponents turnover the ball and counter on us... we are so exposed and have been for years....  They do get attracted to danger quite naturally and one could have stopped Clarke for their second though.   

Yes, overall we need traditional CDM's, I'm just not sure one fits into what Wagner wants to do - unless he's adjusting based on the squad he has - which again seems unlikely when you consider he's done very little adjusting post injuries!

[Jim Smith 2,325]

On 29/10/2023 at 12:36, hogesar said:

If we're going to chain it, then Sara is probably one of our most culpable. Regularly loses the ball for us in bad areas, however that get's ignored for obvious reasons. 

Anyway, you're really going to have to explain Gibson's fault to me, I've taken stills from the goal:

Here, Duffy is marking empty space. Seemingly with no knowledge of who's around him (no-one, in this instance). Gibson points out Sunderlands number 15, presuming this is to Duffy as the player is direct in Gini's eyeline so shouldn't be a problem. Mclean is about to occupy the big space between Duffy and Gibson (albeit poorly).

Duffy is still ball-watching, he hasn't moved, he seemingly completely unaware their Number 15 could make a run in behind where there's a big gap between him and Fisher. Gibson therefore has to go cover, he can't let him go. But Gini can at least see this so should tuck in naturally. Note Sara has finally jogged back into some sort of defensive position.

This is one-second after, Duffy and Gibson now essentially marking the same person, which is where I assume your blame comes from. But you can see why he's had to do that from above, Duffy has done nothing to signify he was aware of player 15. 

Concerningly, Gini has done absolutely nothing and Sara has been sucked towards the ball despite 3 players already around it. Sara was running back so could see the free Sunderland player running into the box but presumably expected Gini to tuck in (just what is Gini marking?).

The pass makes it through (albeit too easily) Gini is caught on his heels even though he's had a perfect line of sight this entire time. 

I don't actually know a defender in the world who could perform with Gini one side and Duffy the other at the moment.

Yes I agree Duffy and Dimi are culpable again but the issue is both Duffy and Gibson get drawn out towards the ball, despite there being 3 or 4 of our players challenging for it. In so doing they vacate the space where they should be and allow that runner to run in unmarked and score. Yes also Dimi should be more alive to it also. But in your third still you can clearly see that Gibson has been drawn out and across leaving a huge gap. He needs to leave the other guy to Duffy and be about five yards to his left. 

[Jim Smith 2,325]

On 29/10/2023 at 13:02, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

The point being that he should be in a no.10...but with someone else behind him alongside McLean to cover those gaps

And Forshaw should have been the one sitting not Kenny. Kenny does not have the positional discipline to be the holding mid. He gets drawn to the ball and around the pitch chasing lost causes. Conversely Forshaw doesn’t have the energy to do that but has looked ok on occasion when sitting in front of the back 4. Admittedly he was cr*p on Saturday but none of them are playing the right role. Gibbs also played the holding role pretty well in pre season but has been played at the number 10 ever since. Somebody, I don’t really care who it is, just needs to be told to sit in front of the centre backs and just play within a 50 yard box in the middle of the pitch. 

[Jim Smith 2,325]

On 29/10/2023 at 13:18, repman said:

I wonder what this is based on though because he does still often drop in-between the CB's during build up. The fact he seems to do both is testament to his ability and maybe a sign of our reliance on him.

Look at Stacey’s positioning there. No wonder teams get behind us. Given our centre backs have no pace not hard to see why there are issues. 

[hogesar 9,704]

7 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes I agree Duffy and Dimi are culpable again but the issue is both Duffy and Gibson get drawn out towards the ball, despite there being 3 or 4 of our players challenging for it. In so doing they vacate the space where they should be and allow that runner to run in unmarked and score. Yes also Dimi should be more alive to it also. But in your third still you can clearly see that Gibson has been drawn out and across leaving a huge gap. He needs to leave the other guy to Duffy and be about five yards to his left. 

I don't disagree you can attribute some blame to Gibson. My issue is he gets most of the blame from fans when he's been probably our best defender this season. In this goal both Duffy and Gini are more to blame, as well as a really poor midfield that is far too passive.

I would certainly replace Duffy long before I would replace Gibson but most fans don't agree with that, which absolutely stuns me.

Edited October 30, 2023 by hogesar

[Yellow Wal 314]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I don't disagree you can attribute some blame to Gibson. My issue is he gets most of the blame from fans when he's been probably our best defender this season. In this goal both Duffy and Gini are more to blame, as well as a really poor midfield that is far too passive.

I would certainly replace Duffy long before I would replace Gibson but most fans don't agree with that, which absolutely stuns me.

Perhaps the simple answer is to replace them both.

[Jim Smith 2,325]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I don't disagree you can attribute some blame to Gibson. My issue is he gets most of the blame from fans when he's been probably our best defender this season. In this goal both Duffy and Gini are more to blame, as well as a really poor midfield that is far too passive.

I would certainly replace Duffy long before I would replace Gibson but most fans don't agree with that, which absolutely stuns me.

Don’t agree they are more to blame than him. Gibson just needs to shout at Duffy to tell him to watch the runner, not get dragged out of position also. In fairness to Dimi there is also a winger outside of him that he was probably keeping an eye on also. All in all it is a defence that has p**s poor communication and seems poorly drilled, this being compounded by the midfield in front of them regularly leaving them exposed.

I agree Duffy has been no better. I’m not really bothered which one you drop, I think both would improve significantly if they knew they had someone with pace alongside them. The combination of the two of them, slow as they are, is asking for trouble. Warner needs to come in and eventually I’d hope he can play with Hanley who we need back desperately. 

[hogesar 9,704]

7 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Don’t agree they are more to blame than him. Gibson just needs to shout at Duffy to tell him to watch the runner, not get dragged out of position also. In fairness to Dimi there is also a winger outside of him that he was probably keeping an eye on also. All in all it is a defence that has p**s poor communication and seems poorly drilled, this being compounded by the midfield in front of them regularly leaving them exposed.

I agree Duffy has been no better. I’m not really bothered which one you drop, I think both would improve significantly if they knew they had someone with pace alongside them. The combination of the two of them, slow as they are, is asking for trouble. Warner needs to come in and eventually I’d hope he can play with Hanley who we need back desperately. 

The difference for me is Duffy is just marking empty space with no idea of what's going on behind him. It looked suicidal in realtime and even worse by the graphic. Dimi doesn't, in the goal, look behind him once for the winger behind him. He has the best line of sight for the break into the box but does nothing to close the gap. He is most culpable at the most important, crucial moment.

Gibson can at least distribute the ball too, Duffy can't even do that. He's literally Hanley from wish.com 

[It's Character Forming 1,164]

On 29/10/2023 at 10:27, hogesar said:

Have to say, whilst I'm in the Wagner needs to go camp, having watched extended highlights for the first time from yesterday, for once our goals weren't really down to poor tactical situations but more so down to terrible individual errors.

Possibly the way Wagner set us up could have worked had he done it a few weeks ago, before confidence was on the floor. Difficult job for whoever comes in.

I can see your point.  But when we talk about a CDM, I'm thinking we have someone like Skipp who sits in front of the defence and cuts things out in that area, then generally plays a simple ball to keep possession.  IMO it's just too easy for teams to find a way through us.  OK so it's open to question whether that would have prevented the specific goals on Saturday, but overall it means we win back possession better and the other side have fewer chances in the danger zone (and we can create more ourselves).  It makes our CBs look worse than they are - with protection in front they have less to deal with from in front, and they are good at dealing with crosses generally (defo better than we were a few years back).

 

I really don't understand the logic of saying this is a player we don't need in our current setup.  I know Skipp was a great find, but surely at Champs level we could find someone who can do a good job in the role ?

 

The other thing I'm not sure about at the moment is that we're not playing a pressing game at all, including when we've just lost possession.  We spent Saturday dropping back to the halfway line or behind whenever they had the ball.  Which made it pretty easy for them when they had the lead from the start of the 2nd half.  I don't know if this is due to 3 games per week but given the number of subs surely we should have something of a pressing approach ?

 

I was there on Saturday, but I'm not ready to watch highlights yet.