Better start than the other relegated clubs..

[East Rider 551]

Todd Cantwell was one of the very few from our squad, who came through last season (before the restart)with their head held high regarding their performance. The fact he comes from our own academy is the cherry on the top.

He certainly does have the ability to change games and his name will be mentioned far more than most this season, by supporters of other clubs.

Can he be criticised in respect of his game? Of course he can, and times rightly so. However, some of the childish comments regarding him due to prejudices a few have, are odd and often lack credible evidence other than a wild guess, accusation or down right spiteful. And when that happens expect to be challenged.

He did not play against Bristol City, DF got the selection and tactics right.  However, he will play a big part in our squad while he is with us. You can be sure of that.

 

 

 

[Il Pirata 249]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

Thought so. Change the goal posts and then throw more into it.

Form is not built over one and a half games. It is incredibly disingenuous to say otherwise. Going on that basis we drew and lost two games without him in the side. Fact is the 'form' argument just doesn't exist.

Now you are saying although he played in three games, that he didn't play well enough to say he had anything to do with the form of the side? Yet in some games he did more than Buendia.

Equally, there were other players that were involved then not, additionally, it is worth noting that Stiepermann came in to play the No.10 role. The game before, it was Pukki who played that role behind Hugill. So Stiepermann did not replace Cantwell. Other players that have changed are the likes of McClean, Hernandez, Placheta who have been in the side, then injured and stayed out or come back in. Same as Zimmermann at the start of the season.

Which all just go to show your understanding of 'form' in this discussion as a point to beat Cantwell over the head with is null and void.

You don't rate him, fine. But don't make up rubbish.

Keep it respectful, chicken. It is my opinion, and I haven't made any rubbish up. My opinion of Cantwell is in the context of game changers such as Buendia, Vrancic, and even Steipermann. He doesn't effect the game anywhere near enough. 

 

[Il Pirata 249]

2 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

I respect your opinion, Pirata, but I don’t think Todd’s sole contribution in those games was as simple as just a goal or assist.

It is no coincidence that fans of other clubs, when spotting say myself wearing some of our apparel in a pub or suchlike, nearly always mention Todd. It used to be Delia, but now it’s Todd. Just way too many people without any agenda either way mention the talent and performance for it not to exist!

As I say, no coincidence, and I guess if I didn’t like say Lionel Messi, then I’m sure I could find fault with him rather than look at his attributes if I really wanted to every single game e.g what did he do in that game? He got a goal and an assist! Yep, BUT he didn’t track back for the 2 goals conceded by Barcelona so that neutralises his individual performance!

So many Norwich fans used to go crazy about the talent of the Murphys. I can't prove it, but I always felt they were never good enough to make the step up to EPL and be consistent and regularly put my view across in conversation. I saw them as decent Championship players. My view of Cantwell is the same. My view of Maddison was very different, as is my view of Buendia. 

Cantwell has a pleasing on the eye style, and will always look good on a highlights reel. So I'm not surprised people bring him up to you. It happens to me too, but interestingly never with Buendia. And we (Norwich fans) all know Buendia is a class apart, don't we? Cantwells goals against Man City and Chelsea certainly elevated him with fans and media outside of Norwich. 

 

[chicken 2,640]

4 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Keep it respectful, chicken. It is my opinion, and I haven't made any rubbish up. My opinion of Cantwell is in the context of game changers such as Buendia, Vrancic, and even Steipermann. He doesn't effect the game anywhere near enough. 

 

Sorry but you have been proven to make stuff up in this thread.

"Form" which is typically understood to mean the performance of, in this instance, a team over several fixtures, suddenly becomes 1.5 games.

You have suggested that there is an overwhelming crowd of people that overrate him - which again just isn't true. You even suggested that the level they overrate him is to suggest that he should be ripping teams apart. Again, not anything anyone has said.

The purpose of this? To build him up as something no one has said he is, to justify your criticism of him.

On his day he is as good as influential as Stiepermann. He was our 2nd highest scorer last season by some distance. No one expected him to find the step up that easy, but arguably he made more of an impact than Buendia on results, like it or not. On paper, both were involved in the same number of goals, 8, I believe.

I love Vrancic and Stiepermann but neither had as much influence as Cantwell in the premier league, that's backed up by everything.

[Il Pirata 249]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

Sorry, but I have seen literally no one saying that Cantwell is a world beater, or that he will easily tear up teams in this division. Frankly, and honestly, we have literally NO players that do that. We have some players who, at their best, can be incredibly tough to play against. A clinical Pukki, a rugged attacker with guile in Stiepermann, the unpredictability and technical ability of Buendia, the pace and positivity of Hernandez and you would have to put Cantwell in there too.

His goals in the premier league weren't flukes, against Man City he was brilliant. We have seen teams double up on him this season already. And we have seen an improvement in results when he has returned and played well. The one game he didn't he was subbed off at half time. A game where Vrancic started in the No.10 and Cantwell wide.

No real argument put forward here. Just an opinion based, one would have to guess, on the "lack of focus", or being one of the people that has never liked him and wants to be proven right despite a great season on promotion and certainly not any worse a season than many others in the side whilst being much younger at 21-22.

 

Really, you actually think that? Remind yourself of the 18/19 season and check the stats (you like them) of Pukki, Buendia, Vrancic and Hernndez. Look at there goals and assists. I would say they were (and still are) a bit better than players "tough to play against." Also, you cant just say "you would have to put Cantwell in there too" because he hasn't done it. The stats back that up. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Il Pirata

[chicken 2,640]

9 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Really, you actually think that? Remind yourself of the 18/19 season and check the stats (you like them) of Pukki, Buendia, Vrancic and Hernndez. Look at there goals and assists. I would say they were (and still are) a bit better than players "tough to play against." Also, you cant just say "you would have to put Cantwell in there too" because he hasn't done it. The stats back that up. 

Again, you're talking junk.

No one said he is "as good as" Pukki. I said he is as good as Vrancic, Stiepermann if not better. Certainly better in the premier league. You also said he rides on the reputation of having scored goals against premier league sides, then deride him for not scoring more in the Championship last time out - which is it to be? Last time I checked, the Premier League is seen as one of the best leagues if not the best league in the world. On last season, he scored 6 league goals and 2 assists, Buendia scored 2 league goals and 6 assists. 

You are saying he is rubbish and hugely overrated. I have compared him to other players in this squad he is at least equal to.

Last season - 2019-20 in the Premier League, he outperformed Vrancic and Stiepermann, and aged 21/22. He's not at the peak/height of his game yet, yet those two and Pukki are. Pukki may have had his best ever season with us already.

In 18/19 he was a 20/21 year old in his first full season of English football. No one rated him then, and people were largely slagging him off. 

Saying Cantwell is rubbish and overrated is just pure imagination of quite a poor degree.

Edited November 2, 2020 by chicken

[Il Pirata 249]

17 minutes ago, chicken said:

Sorry but you have been proven to make stuff up in this thread.

"Form" which is typically understood to mean the performance of, in this instance, a team over several fixtures, suddenly becomes 1.5 games.

You have suggested that there is an overwhelming crowd of people that overrate him - which again just isn't true. You even suggested that the level they overrate him is to suggest that he should be ripping teams apart. Again, not anything anyone has said.

The purpose of this? To build him up as something no one has said he is, to justify your criticism of him.

On his day he is as good as influential as Stiepermann. He was our 2nd highest scorer last season by some distance. No one expected him to find the step up that easy, but arguably he made more of an impact than Buendia on results, like it or not. On paper, both were involved in the same number of goals, 8, I believe.

I love Vrancic and Stiepermann but neither had as much influence as Cantwell in the premier league, that's backed up by everything.

Not at all. I have no set agenda against Cantwell, and actually it does seem to me there's an overwhelming opinion on this message board that Cantwell will thrive in this division. And that he is one of the reasons we should walk this league. 

Cantwell scored 6 goals last season. Impressive. How many assists did he get, or chances did he create? Also, how many goals has he scored in this calendar year?  

Regarding form I take your point. But to my point above, Cantwell has shown a distinct lack of it for an very long time now. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Il Pirata

[Il Pirata 249]

1 minute ago, chicken said:

Again, you're talking junk.

No one said he is "as good" you are saying he is rubbish and hugely overrated. I have compared him to other players in this squad he is at least equal to.

Last season - 2019-20 in the Premier League, he outperformed Vrancic and Stiepermann, and aged 21/22. He's not at the peak/height of his game yet, yet those two and Pukki are. Pukki may have had his best ever season with us already.

Saying Cantwell is rubbish and overrated is just pure imagination of quite a poor degree.

He scored more goals, yes. Didn't do a lot more with far more opportunity to do so. 

Like I said before, we were heading for draws until Vrancic showed against Birmingham and Wycombe, and Steipermann showed what he brings to the game on Saturday. Both start ahead of Todd for me. 

[chicken 2,640]

32 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

He scored more goals, yes. Didn't do a lot more with far more opportunity to do so. 

Like I said before, we were heading for draws until Vrancic showed against Birmingham and Wycombe, and Steipermann showed what he brings to the game on Saturday. Both start ahead of Todd for me. 

But as I have said before, they are not playing in the position Cantwell was playing in... He's been playing left mid, not No.10.

Vs Bristol, Stiepermann played that role.
Vs Brentford Vrancic played that role.
Vs Wycombe Pukki played that role.
Vs Birmingham Pukki played that role.
Vs Rotherham Stiepermann played that role.

Cantwell hasn't played in that position since the first two league games of the season. A win and a draw. Every other fixture he has played in he has been left midfield. He came off against Brentford, for Placheta.

19/20:
Buendia - 36 appearances (8 as a sub), 1 goal, 7 assists (was out a little above).
Stiepermann - 24 appearances (10 as sub), no goals or assists.
Cantwell - 37 appearances (7 as sub), 6 goals, 2 assists.
Pukki - 36 appearances (3 as sub), 11 goals, 3 assists.
Hernandez - 26 appearances (12 as sub), 1 goal, 2 assists.
Vrancic - 20 appearances (14 as sub), 1 goal, no assists.

To me that is pretty clear. Like it or not, in our premier league season, against some of the toughest opposition in the world, Cantwell was up there alongside the likes of Buendia, Pukki, Krul etc as one of the best players in our squad. He was much lorded by the media around the country as one of five young talents that we would do well to keep a hold of over the summer.

If anyone mentions "walk the league" in reference to the Championship they need to wobble their head if not have someone do it for them. This league is a graveyard of teams that promised to "walk the title" never to see it again for a good number of years, further yet, some are further down the leagues now such as the lot down the road, Portsmouth, Sunderland, Bradford etc.

There is also an argument to be had, that some players just seem more adept in the premier league than the arguable more physical leagues lower down.

When all is said an done, Cantwell is more than just a useful squad player, frankly that is a better turn of phrase for someone like Vrancic who, whilst he has his qualities, is unlikely to be a regular starter. He can struggle to get into games. Of that there really isn't any doubt. At 22, he's still got a ways to go, potentially, before he is at his best. Buendia has the potential to be a much greater player, but he returned to the side before Cantwell and hardly set it alight.

Edit: I'll just add too, that on our promotion season, it was our forward play and the speed in which we could play the ball around our midfield going forward that got us up. Whilst Pukki score regularly, and Buendia did well, as with Promotion under Lambert it was a real team effort. Harking back to that is fine, but we're in the present and we have played in a much tougher league since.

Edited November 2, 2020 by chicken

[chicken 2,640]

53 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

So many Norwich fans used to go crazy about the talent of the Murphys. I can't prove it, but I always felt they were never good enough to make the step up to EPL and be consistent and regularly put my view across in conversation. I saw them as decent Championship players. My view of Cantwell is the same. My view of Maddison was very different, as is my view of Buendia. 

Cantwell has a pleasing on the eye style, and will always look good on a highlights reel. So I'm not surprised people bring him up to you. It happens to me too, but interestingly never with Buendia. And we (Norwich fans) all know Buendia is a class apart, don't we? Cantwells goals against Man City and Chelsea certainly elevated him with fans and media outside of Norwich. 

 

Buendia isn't in the same league as Maddison, at least not yet. He doesn't influence a game with the same consistency and sometimes his mentality gets the better out of him and he beats himself. His decision making isn't as good either. There are times when he holds onto the ball either too long or to try and dribble it around too many players and in the wrong places on the pitch.

This isn't to say Buendia isn't a quality player, he is. But people quickly forget the stat that Farke mentioned last season about him losing the ball in more dangerous areas more than any other Norwich player.

As for the highlight reels comment... really? You'll dismiss everyone for having been blinded by 'looking good'... Yeah, sorry. No. Pundits and commentator's alike were singing his praises, were they conned by his style as well?

[Il Pirata 249]

30 minutes ago, chicken said:

Buendia isn't in the same league as Maddison, at least not yet. He doesn't influence a game with the same consistency and sometimes his mentality gets the better out of him and he beats himself. His decision making isn't as good either. There are times when he holds onto the ball either too long or to try and dribble it around too many players and in the wrong places on the pitch.

This isn't to say Buendia isn't a quality player, he is. But people quickly forget the stat that Farke mentioned last season about him losing the ball in more dangerous areas more than any other Norwich player.

As for the highlight reels comment... really? You'll dismiss everyone for having been blinded by 'looking good'... Yeah, sorry. No. Pundits and commentator's alike were singing his praises, were they conned by his style as well?

What like Ian Wright, Alan Shearer and co... must be true then. You do realise that most of the time they just analyse a highlight real don't you?

I guess we'll wait and see how the season pans out. But feel free to bring this thread back up in a few months time. I'll happily be proven wrong, but currently stick to my prediction he'll get no where near 10 goals or 10 assists this season. Whereas others, such as Buendia, will. 

[hogesar 9,708]

I love Stiepermann but Cantwell is 5x the player.

[chicken 2,640]

1 hour ago, Il Pirata said:

What like Ian Wright, Alan Shearer and co... must be true then. You do realise that most of the time they just analyse a highlight real don't you?

And you are better qualified to pass judgement are you?

Not just them either. I said commentators. Match summarisers. There were many good comments from all around. But another flippant hand waive.

It's clear you really do have an issue with Cantwell no matter what you say to the contrary.

[Il Pirata 249]

24 minutes ago, chicken said:

And you are better qualified to pass judgement are you?

Not just them either. I said commentators. Match summarisers. There were many good comments from all around. But another flippant hand waive.

It's clear you really do have an issue with Cantwell no matter what you say to the contrary.

Like you and the majority on here, I've watched Cantwell play more than most national pundits, particularly those two mentioned. Every time we're in the EPL its staggering just how little pundits and commentators know about Norwich. It's embarrassing really. Unless its MB, PD, DF or CG, you can't rely on it. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Il Pirata

[Il Pirata 249]

29 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I love Stiepermann but Cantwell is 5x the player.

But as you've already pointed out, Steipermann is more effective. Which is my point. 

Out of interest, on what scale if Cantwell 5 x the player Steipermann is? Keepy uppies? I'd agree with that. 

[chicken 2,640]

Just now, Il Pirata said:

Like you and the majority on here, I've watched Cantwell play more than most national pundits, particularly those two mentioned. Every time we're in the EPL is staggering just how little pundits and commentators know about Norwich. It's embarrassing really. Unless its MB or CG, you can't rely on it. 

But the pundits know nothing... they don't watch hundreds of players year in year out after careers themselves, some are still coaches. Sorry, but if I had £1 for every fan who thinks watching their side week in week out means they know more about football or players etc than someone that has done it a fair bit, even at an amateur level I would be filthy rich and probably bought myself a seat in the house of lords.

On no internet forum anywhere are you going to be taken more seriously than someone who does it for a job.

[chicken 2,640]

Just now, Il Pirata said:

But as you've already pointed out, Steipermann is more effective. Which is my point. 

Out of interest, on what scale if Cantwell 5 x the player Steipermann is? Keepy uppies? I'd agree with that. 

Cantwell is clearly capable of playing at some level in the Premier League. Stiepermann despite starting the season as first choice behind Pukki, couldn't show anything for it. Not even one assist. 

[Il Pirata 249]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

But the pundits know nothing... they don't watch hundreds of players year in year out after careers themselves, some are still coaches. Sorry, but if I had £1 for every fan who thinks watching their side week in week out means they know more about football or players etc than someone that has done it a fair bit, even at an amateur level I would be filthy rich and probably bought myself a seat in the house of lords.

On no internet forum anywhere are you going to be taken more seriously than someone who does it for a job.

Come off it Chicken, there's some appalling punditry out there and you know it! I'm not saying it's all, far from it, but most on the BBC are useless. 

[Midlands Yellow 4,015]

7 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

But as you've already pointed out, Steipermann is more effective. Which is my point. 

Out of interest, on what scale if Cantwell 5 x the player Steipermann is? Keepy uppies? I'd agree with that. 

TikTok

Edited November 2, 2020 by Midlands Yellow

[Il Pirata 249]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

Cantwell is clearly capable of playing at some level in the Premier League. Stiepermann despite starting the season as first choice behind Pukki, couldn't show anything for it. Not even one assist. 

All about opinions, and that's football. 

I don't think it's clear Cantwell is capable performing consistently at EPL level. 6 goals is all he has to show, which isn't bad, but doesn't prove that much either. He made virtually no assists and his chance creation was low. For a creative player that doesn't bode well. But he's young, so can improve on the talent he has. Steipermann wasn't given a proper chance to show form.. How many games did he play at the start of last season? By your own admission, not enough to be classed as 'form.' 

Technical ability (touch etc) clearly Cantwell is better than Steipermann. But goals, assists, chance creation, and critically the ability to get Pukki firing... It's Steipermann for me. And there's plenty of statistics to back that up. 

 

[chicken 2,640]

Stiepermann started the first seven games last season.

That is two less league games than we have played this year. Yet you have written Cantwell off after fewer.

Seriously, if you have an opinion, that's fine. But it really isn't hard to look up stats like appearances etc. You are being more than unfair and you have absolutely nothing to back it up but how you feel about a player. That's it.

You can't argue that 6 goals is ok, but it's all about assists when he was our 2nd highest scorer in a pretty poor season for the team. You may well be right come the end of the season, football has a funny way of things, and if he isn't able to focus like he did in his first championship season two seasons ago, he may not be the player he could be. But to suggest he is only useful as a squad player is underrating a player more than any imaginary overrating anyone has done of him.

He'd walk into most sides at this level and if any of the noise over the summer was true, then premier league teams were looking at him as well.

[Il Pirata 249]

35 minutes ago, chicken said:

Stiepermann started the first seven games last season.

That is two less league games than we have played this year. Yet you have written Cantwell off after fewer.

Seriously, if you have an opinion, that's fine. But it really isn't hard to look up stats like appearances etc. You are being more than unfair and you have absolutely nothing to back it up but how you feel about a player. That's it.

You can't argue that 6 goals is ok, but it's all about assists when he was our 2nd highest scorer in a pretty poor season for the team. You may well be right come the end of the season, football has a funny way of things, and if he isn't able to focus like he did in his first championship season two seasons ago, he may not be the player he could be. But to suggest he is only useful as a squad player is underrating a player more than any imaginary overrating anyone has done of him.

He'd walk into most sides at this level and if any of the noise over the summer was true, then premier league teams were looking at him as well.

Chicken, with respect, your trying to rubbish my opinion like you own conclusive stats.. you simply don't, so please stop.

You've expressed some very pro-Cantwell opinions and provided some stats that support them - but they're not conclusive. Stats can just as easily mislead. I could also find many that would support my opinion that Vrancic and Steipermann are more effective team players than Cantwell. 

There's no right or wrong here, Chicken. No matter how hard you try. 

 

 

[hogesar 9,708]

1 hour ago, Il Pirata said:

But as you've already pointed out, Steipermann is more effective. Which is my point. 

Out of interest, on what scale if Cantwell 5 x the player Steipermann is? Keepy uppies? I'd agree with that. 

Cantwell with 6 goals and 2 assists in only his second season in English professional football, his first at prem level, in a team that struggled for goals all season. Second highest goalscorer - second highest chance creator in the team. All at the age of 21. Interest and admiration from some of the top prem clubs. This season hes already our best player for dribbling past opposition by some extent - 1.8 with Stiepermann next best at 1.3

Stiepermanns career will never surpass one season in the prem, with limited appearances. Cantwell has already played more at the top level at 21. And will have lots more years at the top level too.

[All the Germans 1,079]

18 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Stiepermanns career will never surpass one season in the prem, with limited appearances. Cantwell has already played more at the top level at 21. And will have lots more years at the top level too.

Firstly Cantwell is clearly a good player regardless of what some think. However, can we show appreciation for him without putting Stiepermann down please? I think it is perfectly feasible that we get promoted and Stiepermann plays a part in the Premier League again, more so than last time, where I don't think he was given a fair crack and was never awful. He has never let us down.

They are both good and I am thoroughly pleased to have both.

[hogesar 9,708]

9 hours ago, All the Germans said:

Firstly Cantwell is clearly a good player regardless of what some think. However, can we show appreciation for him without putting Stiepermann down please? I think it is perfectly feasible that we get promoted and Stiepermann plays a part in the Premier League again, more so than last time, where I don't think he was given a fair crack and was never awful. He has never let us down.

They are both good and I am thoroughly pleased to have both.

I love Stiepermann. He is another I've defended on here before he even had his good season when we won the title. There's nothing wrong with saying a player is better than another player though.

[chicken 2,640]

14 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

I could also find many that would support my opinion that Vrancic and Steipermann are more effective team players than Cantwell. 

There's no right or wrong here, Chicken. No matter how hard you try. 

Strangely, that is called forming an opinion. If you can find stats, do it. I may well be rubbishing your opinion, I have no qualms with that. Because at least I do the research and look into supporting evidence rather than big my own opinion up to be better that the entirety of the media, pundits and commentators and end it all with "I could also find...".

Just laziness. And yes, there is right or wrong here. The right is that you have nothing by your personal view to go on - because you haven't provided anything but that. That's fine, but don't try to make it out to be anything more than that. No supporting evidence, rubbished people's who's job it is to watch an produce analysis on players, including the head coach of our club and presumably the sporting director as well, not to mention coaches.

[hogesar 9,708]

On 31/10/2020 at 16:59, KiwiScot said:

Bournemouth are above us in the table and are unbeaten

I did say if results stayed as they were, in my initial post.

But now I can claim to be future telling also, as we are now 1 point and place above Bournemouth. 

[Il Pirata 249]

On 03/11/2020 at 11:31, chicken said:

Strangely, that is called forming an opinion. If you can find stats, do it. I may well be rubbishing your opinion, I have no qualms with that. Because at least I do the research and look into supporting evidence rather than big my own opinion up to be better that the entirety of the media, pundits and commentators and end it all with "I could also find...".

Just laziness. And yes, there is right or wrong here. The right is that you have nothing by your personal view to go on - because you haven't provided anything but that. That's fine, but don't try to make it out to be anything more than that. No supporting evidence, rubbished people's who's job it is to watch an produce analysis on players, including the head coach of our club and presumably the sporting director as well, not to mention coaches.

Ok Chicken, my stats are the 2018/19 season. 

Vrancic = 10 goals, 7 assists - 36 appearances.

Steipermann = 9 goals, 6 assists - 40 appearances. 

Cantwell = 1 goal, 2 assists - 24 appearances. 

Source, whoscored.com. 

So as we are a championship club again, and considering the last time was only 18 months ago, I'd rather see Vrancic and Steipermann play ahead of Cantwell. 

Personally I think your wrong to suggest you must back up an opinion with stats. There are other dynamics at play with a team performance that are hard to measure. For example, the telepathic understanding Steipermann and Pukki have, or the way Vrancic can turn defensive into attack with one pass. Off the ball positioning, something neither of the three above do that well, but is often perfected by Tettey. How is that 'skill' accurately measured by statistics? Interceptions possibly - but there's more to it, it isn't clearly identifiable but has a huge impact on a teams dynamic. Do you understand what I mean?

For me, we're a better side at this level with Vrancic and Steipermann than Cantwell. And that's considering Cantwell has likely improved, although I've seen nothing so far to suggest he's much better than last time at this level. Early days of course. And fully expect many to disagree. Your going to say that Cantwell plays more on the left, not number 10. Fair enough. But to accomodate Vrancic or Steipermann you need a pacy player. If not Hernandez, then Placheta. And I won't entertain the idea of Cantwell for Buendia, because the players are levels apart.

[Surfer 1,547]

Hum, wonder when the last time was we had all three relegated clubs in the top six positions after 10 games? 

I really would no be surprised to see us three duking it out for the automatic promotion places, Reading are falling apart already, I don't see Swansea, or Middlesborough maintaining their early pace. 

[Il Pirata 249]

16 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Hum, wonder when the last time was we had all three relegated clubs in the top six positions after 10 games? 

I really would no be surprised to see us three duking it out for the automatic promotion places, Reading are falling apart already, I don't see Swansea, or Middlesborough maintaining their early pace. 

I think Swansea might, and I can see Cardiff doing well. Brentford are strong, and I have a feeling Stoke will be up there. So add those four to Norwich, Bournemouth and Watford and I think you have your contenders.