ged in the onion bag

He'll be back!

Thanks. Ideally, this could be a thread on its own, much like Parma’s ‘state of the nation’? A speculative idea of where the clubs likely to be on these issues…. There was another one also with a running record of something statistical… can’t recall what it was called though.

April 74.... Birmingham City (at St Andrews), 2-1 loss, relegation decider .... 48000 apparently, was on my dad's shoulders for most of it.

Just curious, I don't know the answer, but what would have happened if we hadn't got promoted. How would the fans have been paid back?

I never said that.... some other poster did. How's it been attributed to me? That response sums up Ged's naivety perfectly. We developed a young player in the Championship who showed potential to be of PL quality. The result of not getting promotion is that we were forced to sell him off to a club that did get promotion. So instead of adding PL quality players to play alongside him we had to replace him with an aging freebie. And while we remain in the Championship the same story will be repeated each season. Every player we bring through who shows genuine PL potential will be a candidate to be sold off to mitigate the losses accrued from another year without the multi-millions that result from promotion. Like it or not, it really comes down to the most basic economics. That could read, we replaced him with an ageing freebie, we didn't have to. They even said it, we'd need to replace players, they know that is the case, there will be churn. That said it. Are you saying they are telling porkies? Why can't you bring yourself to believe what they said and their reasoning behind it. Is it because you know I said it first, you are so adamant and stubborn that it can't be a plausible path and you can't bear that? Your all in with the insults, (There's another 'naivety') hard to accept I suppose. Listen to what they said, against your comments here and then consider how it marries up. It doesn't. Fortunately, you don't run the club.

I never said that. I do recall the club asking fans to buy a bond for the training facility though.... Plenty of engineering the truth again... plenty of insults.... you hate your view being questioned don't you. So much so, you brain has to reimagine my truth. I am quoting the comments of the club.... just listen to what Ben Knapper and JHT said at the forum. Their words not mine. I just made the observation that it is exactly what I have been advocating as I think it's more likely to prove successful than yours.... You can't see it but there is no need to throw in words like nonsense, idiot, tripe, even you have enough brain, before apportioning comments to me I didn't make like that highlighted and like 'you bizarrely think we're going to be overjoyed with several more seasons in the Championship'.... I don't think everyone is going to be overjoyed with that and never said that but you embellish to suit your narrative. I personally would take several more seasons in the championship than a promotion like the two we recently experienced. That's my prerogative. Like the club said this week, thats much more likely a route to long-term sustainability and success than just getting promoted and having to adapt year by year. Perhaps you could reply in the respectful manner Feed The Wolf did. He can see my point even if he sees it slightly differently. I don't think you have the understanding or the class for that though. One can hope.

It's only the brave coaches that develop players..... the safe ones don't. I am not so convinced by Duffy's inclusion.... he might not be technical enough to play from the back. Depends how well Cordoba fits in of course and how pre-season goes. One of them may just nail it. You are absloutely right, youngsters can't develop in a team that isn't functioning to some extent... that's why we can't develop in the EPL whereas we can in the EFL and it does need a mix of experience. It needs building of course, but then it does look like we have a number of youngsters that might be ready right now.

I appreciate the post.... thanks for that. In response to this particular part, I wonder if fans might rather avoid promotion this season (and the high risk of a difficult season, loss of momentum and relegation) in favour of trusting a process with a view to us being able to compete and stay up in future seasons. You're probably right, they might prefer promotion of course.... . I think the messages this week are already getting fans more positive about the team and the project than they were last season when we clearly made signings with a view to promotion over improvement.

You can believe what you want of course and I am fine with that..... I think they might perceive promotion as a threat right now based on what they have said and the past experiences of this club. But they said it takes time for a reason... they need to give players opportunity and whilst they want to compete, they know opportunity and development comes at a cost.... so I don't think they will expect us to be competing for promotion this season. Duffy might be more consistent and reliable right now than a young centre-half, but it seems they recognise they are going to have to bring the youngsters through. I think they are saying we aren't going to be 'hyper-competitive' just yet but we want to be down the track. I have long held the view that we would be better off developing than desparately chasing promotion when we don't have the tools (players) to compete. What i have said has come to pass though, we strived for promotion, got worse, the fans had a tough time and difficulty associating with this team and now all the money has gone and no promotion.... it was not realistic...... they should have taken stock at the time, recognised the team wasn't good enough and done then what the new regime are doing now...... its just that the money has all gone now which is a shame. But what they have said this week is exactly what i have been stating all this time. That's a fact. Horsefly calls it nonsense when i say it, a few others agree with that and it seems they are calling it lip service when Knapper and Thorup say it..... Horsefly and you prefer to take their words as somewhat hollow.... That's up to you but I always explain my views and justify them with examples and they are usually pretty well evidenced or supported with good reason. Horsefly has never been able to justify his argument with anything that could suggest we could be competitive but for him we must chase promotion anyway. I have my view, he could just not respond to my posts since we've had this debate time and again, but he can't, he has to try to belittle my views (using terms like nonsense and idiot) when evidently, they can't be if that's exactly what Knapper and Thorup have now said..... and trust me, there is nothing in all of their speeches this week that i haven't put forward previously with good reasoning. Shame the club wasted two seasons though.

All this cash from the promotions, where is it now, (its gone), where exactly has it got us on the pitch? (a poorer team lacking philosphy and direction)? How close were we to surviving? (nowhere near it). Since Farke arrived, we've had the following experience..... an average season - fans weren't happy but there was a plan and progress. a good promotion season - fans were ecstatic. an awful EPL season - fans weren't happy. a good promotion season - fans were happy. a horrendouse EPL season - fans were furious. a horrendous EFL season - fans were despondent a very average EFL season - fans weren't happy. ....The EPL money isn't everything, it prevents development and keeps us stuck in a cycle of despair. Those are facts... 4 of the past 5 seasons have been pretty dire. That first promotion may well have been too soon also.... another season and that team might well have been able to create something sustainable, attract more investment, be competitive and survive. They use the example of Brentford and how they built up slowly. If we did go up too soon, you can be sure that any sustainable plan and strategy would be scuppered like it was under Webber and Farke.... they couldn't progress that in the EPL without £300m.

They will absolutely do their best to be as competitive as possible but they will do it with progress in mind, not by doing what Smith and Wagner did and just picking the most experienced team at the expense of development which is what has happened this past two seasons. This team isn't anywhere near promotion material and its likely we will lose one or two of the better players as well. Based on their quite understandable comments, they will know that if we do get promotion next season, the plan, the development stops, they would have to change strategy which would be fully against their 'future' plan and long term sustainability since with our budget, cutting our cloth means certain relegation and lack of competitiveness and no team development. They even said that, there is no point being promoted without everything in place so why would they wish to put that in jeopardy? They either go one way or the other and clearly, they are going the sustainable longer-term route. Yes, they might take the promotion if it developed because there isn't an alternative, but that will certainly leave us in the same purgatory we've been in for the past 6 years. We don't have £300m. Its highly unlikely in any event with this current squad. For this to work how they have described it, they need time. Either that or its all bullsh*t and what would be the point of that. If there intend to develop, I would be astonished if Knapper and Thorup were aiming for the top six right now. As they say, they want to build something sustainable for the long-term. Promotion turned out to be too early in the Webber / Farke plan. Another year building might have left us in a much better position to survive. Timing is everything and it can be too early. I don't understand why you lot are prepared to completely ignore the clear message they put forward.

How absurd. That’s what they said. So you’re suggesting they are giving lip service to the fans then. It doesn’t stack up, why bring in this new guy and suggest this path if they aren’t going to follow it. You really need to hear it the way you want it don’t you. They said, be patient, we will do it incrementally….it might take 5 years….. try reading it properly. But that’s where you struggle. Your interpretation of what’s been said is always incorrect. They even say we will lose players, they accept that so what’s your point about Rowe, Sara and Sargent….. they expect to lose them. The teamtalk might actually be Thorup…. We are on a path of improvement guys, be patient and work hard as we are about making you a Premier League player and making sure you have a chance to thrive…. But we can’t do that if you don’t have a a system you understand and a load of teammates also capable to help you thrive. Player…. Understood boss! It’s not about individual players, it’s about the club.

Well apparently every year isn't the right year! You won't take my 'nonsense', will you take Ben's and Johannes? Here is what Ben Knapper and Johannes Hoff Thorup stated just this week. Represents everything I have been saying since we got relegated and sounds like a plan, a well run club with ambition... but you crack on with your nonsense! Ben.... Look, so many things, lots of different things that can get you to that place where hopefully you have enough to be able to achieve our ambition to be established at that level. Not one solution. I think about the point at which you can achieve promotion, you need to be arriving at that point with the squad in a certain place in terms of it’s composition, experience of the group, development of the players…. You need to be arriving at that point with those conditions right. You’re not having to completely overhaul the squad in one summer and change everything….. Trying to make incremental steps (look at classic examples of Brentford). Brentford incrementally got better by developing players, having to go through a natural cycle of moving them on, slowly getting better, being more competitive, more consistent year on year, but building gradually. You can see the progress of a club like that over multiple years. That’s the kind of the approach that we want to take, it’s not about a flash in the pan where you know, we buy one big player for a huge fee and solve all of our problems, it's trying to approach things in a methodical way where we look at absolutely every part of our operation, so the way we develop players, attract players, build athletes, make them more robust as people, implement game models so we have more control in games and stack the probability in our favour. Lots of things that take time and work to create a strong identity. We’ll focus on a process with a target in mind. To build a connection, something you guys can relate too, bring you on a journey. Ben Knapper. JHT it’s a tough business …. I think there is areas where we can improve for us to be that club that you wish we can be, we can build these areas where not all the other clubs will do the same. If you guys should close your eyes and think about one or two clubs that are well driven and do things a little bit different compared to all the others, but they actually manage to compete, several clubs in Italy and also Ben just mentioned Brentford in England where they actually managed to compete, but they do things just a little bit different. That’s what we gonna do, we have to build and that’s what started here from day one. We have to build up a very, very clear style of play, how we want to approach games, how we want to approach developing young players, developing young talent, how we wanna do training, so we wanna create the culture, the environment l, how we wanna behave, how we wanna give feedback to each other, so if we have that, and it will take time, but if we create that, it’s detailed that it’s good work, that it can also be worked that we could continue building and so in 5 years time will be even better. Other managers can then build on things already there. Hopefully achieve at some point Premier League but also be able to compete, not just for one season but but 5 and 10 and 15 seasons. JHT. For a club like us, these processes simply cannot take place in the Premier League because we don’t have the infrastructure in place yet, nor the money and we won’t have the ball. Had we been promoted in May, there is absolutely no way these proposed approaches could take place. There would be no development, no time to create a culture or implement a philosophy and no money to compete. I can see that, they have realised that and they also know that promotion this year season would most likely be too soon, hence they are asking for time, perhaps even 5 years to build it sufficiently. Evidently horsefly it’s not nonsense, it never was and you are wrong. You all were wrong.

Although football was different then, we played a much more direct game, we were still pretty boring to watch most of the time except in the big games (we definitely have a bulldog spirit, that's undeniable) and all those managers suffered exactly the same criticisms as Southgate is unfairly receiving. We weren't convincing in the group stages of those tournaments at all, in 86 particularly. Robson suffered, he got really hounded before the 90 World Cup as i recall, Hoddle did too. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/jul/31/sir-bobby-robson-media-england-manager. There was always a criticism we couldn't retain the ball like other countries could (remember Baddiel and Skinner) It's coming home..... 'we're not creative enough'...... It's what finally led to the complete overhaul of coaching, "The Future Game" and we've made significant advances but we're still behind others because we haven't got a holding CDM who can be the fulcrum, can control a game and its tempo. Rice is a good player, very good, but not what we need. That's why its not functioning well, that's why Italy beat us last time and probably why Spain are likely favourites now. I do appreciate your logo, love watchin that from Emi.

The major complaint has been the style of football. England have never been anything other than dull this past 40 years.... it really isn't a Southgate thing. Bottom line, he's got us to finals and semi-finals when no one else has achieved that. He's made subs that have come off big time. He bought on Toney to do a job, he bought on Watkins as he needed a different job doing and they worked. How's that not tactically astute? It can't all be luck as so many people so desparately crave to justify they were correct all along. Accept that fact, if you criticised Southgate, you got it wrong. Like I say, England have always been boring, always been negative.

At some point Lakey, your gonna have to hold your hands up and accept you're being an absolute berk on this thread. As Sutton would say 'you're better than that'. Stick to football.

I never said what you quoted. That was someone called Disco.... please don't cut someone else's quote and attribute it to me, ever. The fact they are legitimising Reform is even worse?

It's interesting that what I have been advocating since relegation is belatedly now coming to pass. We could have started a process of renewal when we got relegated but instead tried desparately to get back up without a team and infrastructure and all the fans were desparate for it to. The other night, they highlighted the only sustainable route to the EPL successfully is having everything in place at the right time. Although close with Farke in the first promotion, we haven't had it all in place... if anything, the first promotion came too quickly. Promotion last season for example wasn't the right time and wouldn't allow us to take stock and get something positive going again. This forum would be full of 'look what Ipswich are doing' plus the inevitable doom and despondancy. The point I make in response to yours is that the past two seasons have seen a gradual decline in our club, the team, the prospects and it's association with the fans.... it was moving towards mid-table mediocrity or worse anyway. The fact we have a system to bring players through and perhaps some better personnel behind the scenes who now recognise what's needed will give us more chance of competing for promotion and having something we can all buy into. If it doesn't work, at least we are trying with some method.

Well articulated utter nonsense.

People are very stupid! Don't underestimate that. Who made you think they weren't. We've just seen a load of 'em believe the Farage bullsh*t. Some even voted Tory regardless the complete mess this country is in. As for Labour showing themselves as no better, just appreciate the inheritance...... the state the Tories have left this place is in right now with no finances, debt, decayed infrastructure, no public services, foreign ownership, greed and general standards of behaviour and laziness. Its not a clean slate, they can't start again. Totally unimpressed LDC, you're having a mare here.

You might even be right there.... however, they are still far better than any of the alternatives.

Don't worry, they aren't.

Oh do get a grip. The system is what it is and funny how even some Tories are calling for PR. This lot have come in and are completely different to those incompetent, corrupt Tories. Might sound like New Tories but they aren't the same by a long way. They've inherited a complete mess but at least have a positive approach to try and sort it out. They have some competent people with integrity too, which in my book bodes well. The least people can do is give them a chance, some encouragment and time. Why right them off? Reform are founded on nothing except Farage's bluster and division. No substance to their promises and we all know they will take us down a dark path. All Farage has is a 'gob' and he's clever enough to know that most people are stupid, they'll believe what they want to hear. No way has he the competence to deliver though. Fair play to the LibDems, great campaign, like Labour, they have a care and some substance. This country is a mess, how exactly do you think Reform might make it better. No don't answer that, back to the football. OTBC.

Interesting there were comparisons recently between Southgate and Wagner..... England and Norwich.... couldn't see it myself however, the one issue we have that is comparable is the difficulty transfering the ball from defence to midfield and having someone to receive it, that can progress it and control a game.... We need one of them just like England do! Like Rice, McLean isn't that player so it would make sense to include McLean in the defensive pot. Hopefully we can get someone in the middle (competition for Nunez if you like) to be more effective. Hoping the younsters are ready and get given opportunity ahead of Duffy.

He should have been astute enough, (or someone around him should have been) to recognise social media isn't ever going to help him succeed in football and to close it all down.... that way he couldn't open himself up to the ridicule or the abuse. Sad situation to see it playing out in front of us but he doesn't seem to be able to help himself.