ged in the onion bag

They can't win it seems... don't spend money, they can't compete, plenty of evidence of that with us, spend money you don't deserve to do well. Why should they not spend when the big six do? How do you propose they compete? Maybe build a squad, that's a good idea but people on here wouldn't be havin that. To be fair, they only have complaint about the third incident but I am coming around to the view that this VAR and these rules are corrupt and corruptable. Games' lost its integrity. Handball rule is a joke and can't see how VAR can be so accurate as to definitely get these offsides spot on when players are 40 yds apart.

I remember those games.... frozen pitch at Brum, recall John Deehan nearly tricked their keeper with a 40 odd yard free-kick... looked to cross it and instead drove it at the near post.. keeper just managed to tip it away. Fact is this decision is a disgraceful liberty. FA should be ashamed, but the game's integrity and soul is lost now and the fans aren't doing anything to take it back.

That’s because we were all too deep denying ourselves room and movement to play out. Allowing Leicester to apply pressure on and suffocate us. That was on Wagner who failed to change things even when we were losing. There are no excuses for that display. To accept it as a one off after Middlesbrough recently is wrong. We just handed them the game.

Leicester were only very good for one reason. Us. We let them outplay and outclass us, by sitting so deep and narrow. It was easy for them.

All Wagner needed to say was 'I'm sorry, that will never happen again'. Instead we get that tosh. Kenny says we weren't brave and good enough on the ball. Well, here is the problem. You sit back, position yourselves deep as an entire unit and play out slowly and invite the press..... we allowed Leicester, just like Middlesborough to condense the play and you have 20 players virtually in the our defensive third, certainly in our half.... how are we supposed to play out with no space against a team who wanted to win every ball more that we did. That's on Wagner yet again. Wagner set them up and allowed it to continue despite it being obvious and inevitable what was going to happen. Any player being asked to play that way, would get demoralised as the game progressed. That was an absolute disgrace of a showing and coming off the recent experience of Middlesborough when we did exactly the same thing and suffered the same outcome, its literally unforgivable.

If he keeps playing these tactics in particular matches.... Middlesboro, Leicester, then one thing is true enough.... we will lose the games. We were winning and then drawing into the second-half.... of course we could have got a result. But not playing that way.

But that's not what i said is it. Never has been what I said. But you misinterpret it all you like if it makes you feel big. I said, (with good reasoning) how we need to develop the team (in the absense of money) so we might be able to compete, just like Farke did.... and that would take longer than a season to develop it and it would need some talent brought through. It would need a proper plan a philosophy and patience, not magic! Exactly where have we got this last 3 seasons.... yes, we might get promoted through the back door, be interesting to see the meltdown on here if we do, as we will not compete with our lack of funds and we still aren't developing properly. All we are doing now is trying desperately to stay as a yo-you club..... that's not been a great experience for 5 of the last 6 seasons has it. On that basis, it might not work but neither is this approach either. At least we have something to buy into.

On this same page you wrote....... 'you're probably right in fairness, I'm pretty dumb and never played football above Dog and Duck level. All the best, Segura' on page 4, just before half-time I wrote.... 'Let’s see how clever Wagner is now. He’s not changed anything and just like Middlesbrough, this games just awaiting their next goal. He’s got to get McCallum wider and tighter. Sainz deeper and more effort generally. Far too laboured'. page 5, just after half-time.... Based on this start, he's done nothing... same weaknesses, not getting in their faces across the park. Were just inviting trouble. Again, not having a proper go. PLEASE DONT GO UP ! page 9... What like, don't sit back, play higher up the field, get in the opponents faces and make it hard....play with more tempo, inspire them to work harder with more energy, .... don't play so narrow, get some width in our full-backs so their wide men can't have a field day.... Knock it up to Barnes and get Sargent around him... Fact is we've been too slow, workrate has been poor and McLean has gone missing again when there is no space. There you are, many things we could have done, others pointed out putting McLean in defence, at least its an option.... Football is about attitude.... mentally wanting to win, setting up to have a go. Learning lessons helps, we did exactly the same at Middlesborough and got hammered and embarrassed at the same time. You can't say 'push up we get exposed when you've just watched us spend 70 minutes completely exposed. You push up, get energy in the play, make it tough for you're individual opponent, close down the opponents, don't allow them the width when they have such quality and pace, make them come through the middle and try to combat that instead, make McLean, Sara and Nunez work harder or even add Gibbs who can put a foot in. What we were doing didn't work, they put in cross, after cross and never tried to stop it. Now Stacey and McCallum are getting all the stick when really they were told to play narrow, allow the space and they had very little protection from the wide forwards. Let me inform you about McLean, he's been much better more recently for a very real reason, he was dropped to a holding midfield position first and then central defence.... in both instances, its allowed him more time and room on the ball.... interestingly, his passing has been much improved.... put him in a game when the opponent presses and denies space and he's absent.... today a case in point. Which confirms my point, if you have a go and deny the opponent freedoms to play, they won't be so effective. We could have done so much more to affect that game. Wagner failed completely. I'd love to hear an articulated reasoning as to how Rowe could or would have made a difference today with that set up.

... that's an astonishing response. Do you really think we couldn't have done anything better in that game. and if we couldn't why on earth would you be worried about the play-offs. If we can't do better than that, then we need to avoid the play-offs. I'd prefer to watch football matches where both teams are prepared to have a go. That was shocking and Leicester were only that good because we allowed them to be that good.

There was a fundamental reason for that though. WAGNER! He clearly instructed them to stay narrow and allow them time and space... they have too much quality to allow that to happen. The bloke never learns. That resembled Middlesboro away and on both occassions we just gave up from leading 1-0. Sackable in my opnion. Absolute disgrace. Both occasions were on national TV..... what an embarassment. We can't be havin performances like this ever.

What like, don't sit back, play higher up the field, get in the opponents faces and make it hard....play with more tempo, inspire them to work harder with more energy, .... don't play so narrow, get some width in our full-backs so their wide men can't have a field day.... Knock it up to Barnes and get Sargent around him... Fact is we've been too slow, workrate has been poor and McLean has gone missing again when there is no space.

They are!

Based on this start, he's done nothing... same weaknesses, not getting in their faces across the park. Were just inviting trouble. Again, not having a proper go. PLEASE DONT GO UP !

Let’s see how clever Wagner is now. He’s not changed anything and just like Middlesbrough, this games just awaiting their next goal. He’s got to get McCallum wider and tighter. Sainz deeper and more effort generally. Far too laboured. McCallum is far too slow.

Sargent will net soon. told yer!

If he's more valuable than the buy out then Dusseldorf will find the money then sell him on immediately. We won't benefit! Fair play to him for his progress. Another player we totally let down and mis-managed. By the end of that first season we had already destroyed his confidence and he's clearly now getting it back. We shouldn't have signed him because he was too young to be useful in the EPL at the time. Not his fault of course, entirely Webbers.

How is this comment from you relevant in any way to what I said? And get your facts right. I argued developing a capable squad and playing philosophy of the right talent types and that would include young talent.... and I argued it with valid facts and reasoning. I remain of that view and stand by it, we could do much better. You're happy to flit between leagues being competitive one year / getting thumped the next / struggling to find form / cohesion / quality entertainment the next..... that's the cycle. If you're happy with that, crack on - enjoy. Personally, I am not happy with our last Prem season or the subsequent seasons in the Championship, its generally been an unenjoyable time (including most of this one). I am entitled to my own views however, I have conviction in them and they are always justified by explanation. You struggle to understand but I can't do anything about your level of interpretation. ... and I do recall, you're the person that generally mis-interpreted what I had said for your own agenda, as your responses clearly showed then and that's evident based on this senseless post. You don't come across as particularly clever.

Fans reading garbage journalism again I see. Not all facts are considered here... As Chris Sutton would say 'Yer better than that!' Firstly, as the article says, he was undroppable under Schumacher (he wasn't) but Plymouth and he were doing perfectly well. The new manager is the problem, the fans are not happy with him at all. Every player is struggling including Whittaker as the team just aren't functioning. Their fans are frustrated with it all at the minute.

Well, I think you've done as well as possible to justify your view here. Sadly, I don't see it myself, Your argument centres on our forward players (who are our main assets) and sadly, they won't get the ball in the right areas and with enough support around them (IMO) since we don't have enough structure and quality to the team and we won't be able to close the vast gap without a lot of money. I think CDM's are a necessity nowadays. Rowe is very hit and miss and I don't think consist enough yet. Can he offer support defensively and an attacking threat, not sure. But the fact is the defence is a major problem. The only one's i would trust are Stacey, Sorensen and McCallum and that's as back-up options. The rest are nowhere near the level. Its not likely I know, but I'm up for your wager certainly, I will be hoping to donate by Xmas. Whats the protocol for that?

How do you work that out. We'd have no defence based on the current squad. We've got one potential forward. No CDM, only Sara in midfield, No Buendia type to create enough chances. Sainz isn't Buendia, doesn't have his tenacity or ability to create as many chances. Not quick enough, strong enough or technically good enough. Not financially funded and our scouting and recruitment is not convincing.

Were just not ready…. Responding to the comments in this thread… We couldn’t play like a Dyche team in the Prem, we just don’t have ‘ANY’ personnel to play that way and all our kids have been bought up to play pretty football… we aren’t that type of club. We’d need a new team. Mention of 10 plus most definitely. We have the following : - Capable, Gunn, Sara, Possibly capable, Stacey, Sargent, Rowe, Sainz, …….. but the last 3 only if we have players that can get the ball to them effectively and their attacking threat is not compromised by having to defend deep… which is what has happened the last two occasions. Reserves at best McCallum, Nunez (not quick enough and too lightweight), Gibbs (we just don’t know), Sorensen is versatile. Not capable due to lack of speed, agility, strength, experience at that level….. Long, Fisher (unlikely), Batth, Duffy, Hanley, Gibson, Giannoulis, McLean (we just have to have better than that in the engine for the team to function at EPL level, wouldn’t have the room he gets now in the deep role), Hernandez, Barnes, Fassnacht. That’s two definite and 4 possibles. If anyone disputes that, please justify articulately. It is the EPL remember. We aren’t a robust, strong and quick team… all the attributes required, we don’t have. We have at least 10 players out on loan and some doing very well. None are likely to get any opportunity to progress with us if we go up, we will stick with the list above and expect miracles. Then you have to allow for injuries. It’s real fantasy to think we can compete when there really aren’t adequate players and finances in place. We don’t ‘need’ promotion financially since all of that money will be consumed just in the promotion itself, just like it was the last two times. This team isn’t anywhere near as good as the past two promotion teams and look what happened…. Yes, poor recruitment… wrong players for the time. What’s to say we will get that right next time? In all likelihood we won’t.

Why a risk? Not like we were possibly throwing away a promotion position, or at the time a play-off place. There's absolutely no risk at all we were mid-table. I'd say it would demonstrate positive and brave management. What responsibility? Should Liverpool not have played Owen when he was 18? Birmingham and Dortmund not play Bellingham? Lol.

Answer to the thread title - unequivocally Yes.... Answer to your post. Absolutely no chance. We don't have the players or the financial backing or the recruitment, or the coach.. recipe for disaster. Building a squad takes time, probably 3 years. Needs a proper plan and patience. We haven't built anything this past three seasons. Farke wasn't far away from making it work. We go up this season, we'll spend all the money again trying in vain to compete, have an awful experience and end up chasing our tails again.... and skint! Meanwhile all this talent out on loan, will likely be lost as they won't get a chance, much like what's happening to Gibbs. We'd need to start with the recruitment and get that sorted first of course, then a manager with a philosoply we can buy into.... of course, we will lose Sara, Sargent and Rowe, that's inevitable, but its happening anyway at some point and at least we'l get money for them but we won't following a disastrous EPL campaign.

Think I just did. But also said it in a particular context which is relevant and you have not even considered that point. Read the context! Separately, based on the evidence so far and seeing him play, he doesn't look clever or much of a threat, ungainly even. Would much rather them give Aboh a chance, he's fit, one of our own and it wouldn't have cost us anything. So what was the point of you commenting there? Please justify.

Why not let Idah go and promote Aboh into the third striker option... Have to agree with Hoggy, SVH does look a good distance away from competing for a start. Aboh is fit. ? How long does it take to get fit? He's been here 6 weeks now which is a pre-season... Yes, match fit is different but then he's not contributing in the minutes as a sub. Diabolical signing when Aboh is more ready for a chance since he's fit!