Zonal Marking?

[Clint 221]

Vlad also makes a relevant point and another of my issues with our tactics in that all 11 players are pulled back for set pieces.

This surely means the opposition can just send more players up to attack the ball and we offer no threat on the break. We are bringing back a player such as Redmond who offers nothing when defending a set piece whereas the opposition are sending an additional player forward who could well be a threat.

If you leave Redmond on the half way line, the opposition would need to leave at least 2 players back due to his pace on the counter attack.

I remember Eadie and Hucks always roaming around on the half way line when defending set pieces for this very reason and they regularly created decent chances on the break.

[ZLF 274]

zonal marking or not, Its the same as formations, none are inherently more effective or attacking than another, and none of them are to blame for any win or loss.

its all about how effectively the team employ them and how players perform on the day.

As much as hughton has (rightly for me) taken the flack, it is hiding the fact that not one player has performed consistently to their best this season, irrespective of the chosen tactics, and that is down to the player attitude not the manager. They all need to up their effort and ability for the remaining 14 games

[Bill 1,788]

"Defenders defend a designated area as their starting point. If the ball is played into their zone, they have to challenge the opponent or win the header if no opponent is located in their zone. Sorry if my explanation wasn''t clear. What I was trying to get at is that how the ball is delivered affects the actions the players will take in their zone. Whether they drop deeper, whether they challenge aggressively etc.

that is absurd

you are just making it up as you go

a player either remains in that zone or not, if he does he is in danger of being crowded out by attackers if the ball comes his way or totally ineffective if it doesn''t

he cannot simply opt out and chase the ball if it is going elsewhere as that defeats the object

I think you are rather missing the point which is this idiocy is just a further expression of Hughton''s flawed tactics.

[Bill 1,788]

"not one player has performed consistently to their best this season, irrespective of the chosen tactics"

what on earth do you mean "irrespective of the chosen tactics" ?

how is it that RVW and Fer both Dutch internationals are struggling

Ruddy, England keeper now looks shaky and prone to mistakes

Bassong likewise

Hooper banging them in regularly in the SPL yet struggling here

Hoolahan, probably our most creative player yet barely gets on the pitch

it is not about how effectively they employ those tactics, it is about how week after week they fail - the players can see it and the fans can see it

players of their quality do not collective become rubbish, unless there is a collective cause

that cause is the one that has players struggling to find a team mate to pass to, defenders backing off players because they are not in their zone, corners going unchallenged at both ends for the same reason and the opposition free to roam around the pitch knowing that we won''t mark them

if you cannot see tht during a game then I would have to wonder what you imagine you are watching

Hoolahan, probably our most creative player yet barely gets on the pitch

[Phillip J Fry 0]

[quote user="City1st"]that is absurd

you are just making it up as you go

a player either remains in that zone or not, if he does he is in danger of being crowded out by attackers if the ball comes his way or totally ineffective if it doesn''t

he cannot simply opt out and chase the ball if it is going elsewhere as that defeats the object

I think you are rather missing the point which is this idiocy is just a further expression of Hughton''s flawed tactics.[/quote]

I never said that. You have to remain in your zone, that''s the entire point of zonal marking. The delivery can affect your actions though. Whether you go for a challenge (within your zone), drop deeper (within your zone) or simply do nothing (within your zone). It all depends on the delivery, the area the ball goes to and it''s relation to the zone you are being asked to mark.

[Phillip J Fry 0]

[quote user="City1st"]that is absurd

you are just making it up as you go

a player either remains in that zone or not, if he does he is in danger of being crowded out by attackers if the ball comes his way or totally ineffective if it doesn''t

he cannot simply opt out and chase the ball if it is going elsewhere as that defeats the object

I think you are rather missing the point which is this idiocy is just a further expression of Hughton''s flawed tactics.[/quote]

I never said that. You have to remain in your zone, that''s the entire point of zonal marking. The delivery can affect your actions though. Whether you go for a challenge (within your zone), drop deeper (within your zone) or simply do nothing (within your zone). It all depends on the delivery, the area the ball goes to and it''s relation to the zone you are being asked to mark.

[YankeeCanary 0]

 

There are a number of interesting points being made regarding zonal marking. With apologies in advance to the OP ( Clint ), I''d like to just make some long-winded points about recent games ( Newcastle and Cardiff ) and examples that actually occurred. When I watch the match I tape it so that I can also watch the playback frame by frame so as to study what is actually occurring.

First of all, the Newcastle match. A Newcastle player who has been having difficulty trying to get a match all season, Sammy Ameobi, looked like a real star performer as he caused all kind of problems to the right side of our defense, creating numerous chances that could have seen his side scoring a number of times. Norwich players are clearly are under instruction to stand off opponents because we did it repeatedly. On one of those attacks down the Newcastle left side, after Ameobi beats the defender the ball is pulled back to a Newcastle forward in the middle well outside the box. On this occasion if the Norwich defenders were employing zonal marking then it appeared five of them believed they were all covering the same zone. Even in real time it was painfully obvious that Bassong and one other defender realized, far, far too late, that someone should have been moving toward this unmarked man who appeared to have "all day long" to shoot if he chose. In slow motion it is painful to watch. It looked like two teams playing in different time zones.

 

Now, I''ll move to the match that Clint said he just watched, against Cardiff. The now deposed Cardiff manager clearly saw something that he shared with his players at half-time because they had hardly been on the pitch for a few minutes before our two minutes of madness occurred. Although there is enough blame to go around during this two minutes I''m going to focus ( some may say unfairly ) on Russell Martin.  Marshall, the Cardiff keeper, gets his hands on the ball and obviously based upon pre-planning ( because he almost slips with the speed of execution ) kicks the ball out low and long to Bellamy to catch Norwich completely off guard down the Cardiff left side. Subsequently, of course, the ball is crossed too deep to the other side of the pitch, leading to Hooper making his risky pass back across towards the middle of our defense. Although the ball was not accurately guided towards a Norwich player if you stop the playback to frame by frame, there are at least five Norwich players defending against three Cardiff players. However, our players are relatively frozen in their zones as Zaha pounces on to the ball ( it only looked like a pounce because no Norwich player was challenging for it ) before slipping it in to Bellamy who barely finishes to get the goal. On a Norwich corner during this crazy two minute period Martin is in the middle of the pack in Cardiff''s goal area. If you are able to watch in playback watch the slowness with which Martin is attempting to get back into his own half. It looks like he is running at half speed compared to everyone else. It didn''t look like an injury, it just looked like someone who is not fit. He arrives back about ten seconds after everyone else. On a second attempt at goal by the Cardiff''s Mutch, which barely misses the far post, Martin again is almost afraid to defend in an aggressive manner, standing off the player. Subsequently, of course, when Cardiff scores their second, Martin who, as someone stated, may be responsible for covering a zone, looks like he actually turns his back towards Jones when Jones has a second stab to score.

 

My point is that whether zonal marking is being employed or not we are not doing the basic things well. It really is amazing to me that we have as many clean sheets as we do this season. Quite frankly, I hope Hughton and the players sat down and watched video playback like I did on these games because, if we don''t learn from them, Manchester City will once again carve us to pieces.  

[Clint 221]

Yankee, for the first goal it looks as though Bennett could have prevented the danger by challenging Zaha outside the box. Zaha picks up the ball but it was inbetween them both and Bennett looks like he''s go towards but then decides to pull back.

Any kind of attempt to challenge when the ball was loose, I think stops that goal. Having watched the match back, why do you think he didn''t go for it?

Is this because he needed to stay in his zone?

[Ray 111]

YankeeCanary,

Sorry mate but I read your post three times and got a bit lost in it and had difficulty in following the points and sequence of events you were referencing, but this may have something to do with the fact that you think the Cardiff Manager has been deposed since the game, when I think you mean the Swansea manager, so your attention to detail seems a little off to me and this undermines the rest of your points.

However I do feel it is unfair to focus on one player when mistakes were made all over the pitch, leaving our defence exposed, who in turn didn''t cover themselves in glory either, none of them.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="Ray"]YankeeCanary, Sorry mate but I read your post three times and got a bit lost in it and had difficulty in following the points and sequence of events you were referencing, but this may have something to do with the fact that you think the Cardiff Manager has been deposed since the game, when I think you mean the Swansea manager, so your attention to detail seems a little off to me and this undermines the rest of your points. However I do feel it is unfair to focus on one player when mistakes were made all over the pitch, leaving our defence exposed, who in turn didn''t cover themselves in glory either, none of them.[/quote]

 

Ray, yes, I apologize for the long winded input ( I did say that upfront ) and also for the fact that I seemed to have got "lost in Wales" on the manager. However, I don''t think it undermines the points I made at all. It didn''t seem to bother Clint who embellished what I had to say and came back with a question.

 

To Clint, I would say I agree with you on Bennett. He was the logical player to step up but we have seen on countless occasions in previous games that Bennett is more apt to back off. If that''s the way they are coached ( obviously I don''t know that for a fact ) then it''s difficult for a player , in the situation we are referencing, to have the confidence to move forward aggressively when it''s a 50/50 ball. If you have access to the playback, Clint, just watch what Martin does when Bellamy is about to move to his left as the ball is about to be slid in to him. Martin stands to the right of the play as if frozen watching what''s transpiring with no movement towards Bellamy at all. Ray thinks I''m being unfair on Martin by singling him out. I don''t think so. I deliberately did that because of where we were in danger in both matches I referred to. On the contrary, with respect to the Cardiff match, I think Ray is being a little hard on Norwich overall. Our weakness in that match was mostly exposed during that two minutes of madness, and for the reasons I pointed out.

 

[Ray 111]

YankeeCanary,

Apology accepted and understood, it''s only a junction or two down the M4 anywway and still a bl**dy long drive after a defeat.

The link has been taken down now so I am unable to review it again, however when I did view it I noticed Seb Bassong stopped tracking Bellamy, so RM probably expected Seb to continue tracking, but as you say this might be because they are zonal marking??

I was referring to the number of mistakes made in those two minutes, Hooper''s pass, Bennetts lack of interception, Bassong''s lack of tracking, Snoddy''s stopping dead in his tracks, Elmander running out of a defensive position and Martin and Bennett ''swapping'' positions, although there may have been a good reason for that.

My point was, that in those two minutes a lot of players could, and perhaps should, have done better.

We can all pick out mistakes by defenders throughout the season, and others players of course, and I have seen all four at the back make mistakes, Seb in particular has made some unforced errors, that happens. I just thoght to chastise one player in particular was unfair, given the performance overall, especially if they are playing to orders.

[YankeeCanary 0]

 

Fair enough Ray.

By the way, I should mention that I like Russell Martin. I think he has been a good loyal servant at NCFC. Regardless, it would not surprise me to see him given a rest tomorrow.

[Ray 111]

YakeeCanary,

I have already posted my selection elsewhere, however I am amending it to.

Ruddy

Martin, Yobo, Bassong, Olsson

Johnson, Tettey

Redmond, Fer, Pilington (was Jonas) (This may change to Redderz on the left and Snoddy on the right with Pilks on the bench)

Hooper

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]Fair enough Ray. By the way, I should mention that I like Russell Martin. I think he has been a good loyal servant at NCFC. Regardless, it would not surprise me to see him given a rest tomorrow.[/quote]I wouldn''t be surprised to see him starting in the centre tomorrow Yankee in place of Bennett (depending on Yobo''s fitness) with Whitaker on the right.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]Fair enough Ray. By the way, I should mention that I like Russell Martin. I think he has been a good loyal servant at NCFC. Regardless, it would not surprise me to see him given a rest tomorrow.[/quote]

I wouldn''t be surprised to see him starting in the centre tomorrow Yankee in place of Bennett (depending on Yobo''s fitness) with Whitaker on the right.
[/quote]

 

Lapp, please believe me when I say that thought went through my mind also as I was writing my previous message. Then I dismissed it with another thought that, given the opposition, Hughton will likely go with Yobo''s big league experience to start alongside Bassong. ( I''m really drawing on Hughton''s comments in the video when Yobo joined ). 

[andyc24_uk 59]

Can''t remember who it was but I remember hearing a quote a long time ago from a manager that ran something like, "I tell my players to use man-marking, because I''ve yet to see a zone score a goal..."

[Bill 1,788]

At last what has been painfully obvious is now being recognised by all.

Unfortunately I''ve no idea what P Fry is on about - and I suspect he doesn''t either as each post contradicts itself

Sadly there are some who still imagine that this is all down to the players and the managers tactics have nothing to do with what goes on, on the pitch.

That it has taken so long for so many to see what is blindingly obvious makes me wonder what some folk think they are watching.