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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]Morty, I calculated that the population of Norfolk is not small when taking into consideration that there is only one professional club.

There are more people per professional club in Norfolk than there are people per professional club in London.[/quote]

By your ballsed up maths that is.

£11million people plus live in London.Let alone the surrounding areas.

Let''s also not forget that some clubs have also paid for families to move so that they gain players that way too.

There is so much more to it just than number of people. It does make it harder when the population density is very low.

A village might not have enough players to put a team together. Larger towns have more players and more accessible facilities.

For the coaching system to be able to find players the youngsters need to be playing regularly.

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ClubStadiumCapacityFoundedNotes
Premier League (1)
ArsenalEmirates Stadium60,3611886London''s first professional club, originally based in Woolwich. First London team to become English League Champions, in 1931.
ChelseaStamford Bridge42,4491905Won the last ever FA Cup final at the old Wembley in 2000 and first at the new stadium in 2007. First London club to win the UEFA Champions League in 2012.
FulhamCraven Cottage25,7001879Oldest London club in the Football League.
Queens Park RangersLoftus Road18,3601882Have had nearly 20 different home stadia.
Tottenham HotspurWhite Hart Lane36,2301882The first English club to win a European trophy.
West Ham UnitedBoleyn Ground35,3031895Founded as Thames Ironworks.
Football League Championship (2)
Charlton AthleticThe Valley27,1111905The club''s first ground was Siemens Meadow (1905–1907).
Crystal PalaceSelhurst Park26,3091905A Crystal Palace team established in 1861 were FA founder members.
MillwallThe Den20,1461885Founded in East London on the Isle of Dogs, moved to Bermondsey in 1910.
Football League One (3)
BrentfordGriffin Park12,7631889Founded in 1889 to serve as a winter pursuit for the Brentford Rowing Club.
Leyton OrientBrisbane Road9,2711881Leyton Orient was originally formed by members of the Glyn Cricket Club in 1881.
Football League Two (4)
AFC WimbledonKingsmeadow4,8502002Formed by fans of Wimbledon when club announced move to Milton Keynes.
BarnetUnderhill Stadium6,2001888Have not played in the top flight. First London team to be promoted from the Conference into the League (in 1991).
Dagenham & RedbridgeVictoria Road6,0781992Formed from Ilford (formed in 1881), Leytonstone (1886), Walthamstow Avenue (1900) and Dagenham (1949). and Redbridge Forest 1992. Have not played in the top flight.
Conference National (5)
Conference South (6)
A.F.C. HornchurchHornchurch Stadium3,5001923Formerly Hornchurch
Boreham WoodMeadow Park4,5021948
BromleyCourage Stadium5,0001892
Hayes & Yeading UnitedChurch Road6,5002007Formed by a merger of Hayes F.C. and Yeading F.C. in 2007.
Sutton UnitedBorough Sports Ground7,0321898
Welling UnitedPark View Road3,5001963
Isthmian League Premier Division (7)
Carshalton AthleticWar Memorial Sports Ground5,0001905
Cray WanderersCourage Stadium6,0001860[8]Currently tenants of Bromley. Oldest club in Greater London.
Enfield TownQueen Elizabeth II Stadium2,5002001Set up by supporters of Enfield (now based outside Greater London boundaries) in protest at owners'' actions.
Hampton & Richmond BoroughBeveree Stadium3,0001921
Harrow BoroughEarlsmead Stadium3,0701933
HendonVale Farm3,0001908
KingstonianKingsmeadow4,8501885Currently tenants of AFC Wimbledon
Metropolitan PoliceImber Court3,0001919
WealdstoneSt. George''s Stadium2,3871899
Wingate and FinchleyFranklyn Road Sports Ground1,5001946
Isthmian League Division One North (8)
IlfordCricklefield Stadium3,5001987
RedbridgeOakside3,0001958Formerly Ford United
RomfordMill Field1,1001876
Thamesmead TownBayliss Avenue6,0001969Formerly Thamesmead
Waltham ForestWadham Lodge3,5001964
Isthmian League Division One South (8)
Corinthian-CasualsKing George''s Fields2,7001878Formed by a merger of Corinthian F.C. and Casuals F.C. in 1939.
Dulwich HamletChampion Hill3,0001893
Tooting & Mitcham UnitedImperial Fields3,5001932
Southern Football League Division One Central (8)
A.F.C. HayesFarm Park1,5001974
North Greenford UnitedBerkeley Fields2,0001944
NorthwoodNorthwood Park3,0751899
UxbridgeHoneycroft3,7701871

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signupcarrowroad: You quite much answer to yourself when you say that there is only one professional club on the area.

Areal competition is key thing when producting players.Norfolk is mostly ccountryside and that 800k of people are quite well spread in it.

When there is only one major club on the area children wont get that much quality coaching at the age they mostly need it 10-15 as not all of them can play in one club or distances get too long.

In London if you wont get in the Arsenals or Chelseas youth team there is 10 professional teams just right behind them with their scouts. Also as there is lot people, there is lot chances to get gametime. Same with other major cities.

Then there is always immigraton and money issues ^^ Norfolk doesnt really have so much those really poor areas with lot of poor people living next to eachother and most of immigration goes again to the big cities and we know how many quality player has roots in slums of poor countries.

We are not also enough rich to scout that much outside of our own backyard and as small city club we dont have same resources to offer youth players parents jobs and dont seem as lucrative as bigger city clubs.

It is same thing in every country. If we can keep up our run in premier league we will have chance thought to draw foreign youth players in future, but it would mean more luck than skill to become major player in producting english youth players.

Even a bit similar''s Crewe Alexandra''s success came from being that close to Manchester and drawing rejects from there and to be honest their work as a producer club was more hyped than deserved ^^

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Now go back and do the following:

1) Remove all of the clubs that are not fully professional.

2) Remove the ones that don''t have academies.

3) Take your monitor and put your face through it.

OK, so the last one was a joke but if you did the first two then it was worth a try for a laugh!

Like I said it is far more complex than averaging out populations to clubs. London is a hotbed, every child will be exposed to sport and with so many, big, successful and historical clubs around them to inspire them too.

I would say that spreading the resources out has something to do with it. Also things like budget cuts to schools who then bought in the likes of Fitch to run sports sessions also prevents good development at an early age.

I can''t help but think we should have had a little more success but I think the management of some of our youngsters later on has hindered them.

I can''t help but feel Ryan Jarvis could have furthered his ability had he been loaned out at 17/18 and remained that way until 20/21. It''s what Arsenal and Man Utd do with their players and what helps them make the step up.

It''s why I''m not convinced by this under 21 league.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

 

I would like to know how many players in the premier league came through any club''s academy as a schoolboy in 1993 and compare that figure to how many players in the premier league who came through any club''s academy as a school boy in 2013. That would be an interesting comparison don''t you think? And then we could move onto where all the players who came through any club''s academies as schoolboys are playing now? I would guess the result would be at a much lower level than they used to 20 years ago.

 

 

[/quote]

 

This is the question I asked on page 3 that nobody has even attempted to answer. Do you want to have a go Singstrop?

 

Oh and are we still going with Ricky Martin being the reason why Norfolk has traditionally not produced it''s fair share of top players? Or is it because Sammy Morgan left?

 

You could find and collate all the facts, start off from that point and try and investigate why this is the case. Alternatively you could start off with some grudge that it''s all Ricky Martin''s fault and then flag up some spurious facts to grind that particular axe.

 

 

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"By your ballsed up maths that is. £11million people plus live in London.Let alone the surrounding areas"

No, as per the 2011 census 8 million people live in London, 11 million live in "London and the surrounding area", but if you want to include the people who live in the "surrounding area" then we will need to add the clubs in the "surrounding area", so now using your 11 million we can add Barnet, Luton, Watford, Dagenham & Redbridge, possibly others. So now we have 11 million divided by 18, which I can tell you skews the argument much further in my favour than 8 million divided by 13.

"Let''s also not forget that some clubs have also paid for families to move so that they gain players that way too"

And why can''t Norwich do this?

"There is so much more to it just than number of people. It does make it harder when the population density is very low"

Why though? There are six Norfolk youth leagues. The club can access the fixture list and send scouts whenever they wish. Norfolk isn''t so much of a backwater that there are entire towns missing of the map. Contrary to popular belief.

"A village might not have enough players to put a team together"

Good grief, what does that even mean? I didn''t read this when writing the above. Are you suggesting that there are undiscovered Norfolk villages where they still use horse and cart, don''t have televisions or radios, and don''t dare venture into the next village for fear of war? All areas of Norfolk have a very active youth league.

"For the coaching system to be able to find players the youngsters need to be playing regularly"

All schools have teams, there are hundreds of kids teams, and if somebody isn''t playing school football then we can assume that they are never going to become the next Maradona.

I never thought I''d feel like a sheltered urban dweller having been brought up on the mean streets of the NCH.

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What I do agree with you on Chicken is that Ryan Jarvis and Ian Henderson would have been better players if they had been sent out on loan at 18 and 19.

Thankfully in Hughton and Lambert we have had two managers who see that out on loan is the best place for a youngster, and that may well be the making of players like Korey Smith and Tom Adeyemi.

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I''ll stop you there.

Not all schools have football teams. Again the best example is some areas where there are not enough kids of a similar age to form a team.

And school teams are not always well coached.

Like I said before it really comes down to grass root coaches in coaching youngsters for the academy to pick up upon.

As for moving families - have you been trapped on a tropical island with polar bears and a mysterious black mist for 15 years? The club has not had the money.

You are still spouting conjecture. You compared an average number to an actual number which is not good evidence for anything other than poor maths.

Look at Leeds for example. A population of 1.5 million or there abouts. That''s one city. Not even the county. Norfolk as a whole as you state only has just over half of that.

As has been mentioned elsewhere it also comes down to competition in many areas. Many of the big teams will take players from smaller or less powerful clubs like the other year when we lost a young striker to Arsenal. At the same time players cast off by the bigger clubs can end up at the smaller clubs.

That overlapping only helps to ensure young players get every opportunity.

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All the best coaches in the world cannot teach under 21 footballers more about the game than good experienced players, playing with them, in the same team. The game is learnt on the pitch.

Hence loaning players out can be more beneficial. The only problem being that the impressionable youngsters can also pick up the bad habits of older professionals who possibly have never played in the top two flights.

Oh for a return to the Football Combination with meaningful Reserve team matches where the older pros at a club brought on their own youngsters and where the youngsters played against some top class players in opposition Reserve teams.

That surely was a better way to develop and progress young players.

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[quote user="Warren Hill"]But, unless you properly analyse the population, the figures will be skewed. I''m not sure of precise demographics but, in North Norfolk certainly, you''d find a much higher percentage of OAPs than is the national average. Historically, I''d also hazard a guess that a higher percentage of professional footballers come from a traditionally working class inner city background. Places already mentioned like Liverpool, Newcastle and I remember there being a documentary about part of Essex/East London (can''t recall exactly) that has produced loads of players from Moore through to Redknapp and Beckham. There can''t be many footballers from farming backgrounds and there definitely aren''t many that are middle class. I''d imagine that rules out a fairly big percentage but of course, I''m only hypothesising.[/quote]

 

To the best of my knowledge, that is quite correct.  I have a professional interest in demographics,  and as far as I can remember, data from the Office of National Statistics indicate that Norfolk has a population of closer to 750k, of which the percentage of patients aged 65 and over represent (roughly) 22% of the population, compared to around 17% for the East of England. This is significantly higher than the 15% for England.  This elderly population is also rising.  

 

This demographic of Norfolk is (IMO) likely to be a contributing factor to a smaller ''pool'' of talent availble on our doorstep so to speak, though I acknowledge this is not the problem it once was now the 90 minute rule has been done away with.

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[quote user="Ches right hand man "]Why can''t you understand there is bad coaching at the club and that''s why it''s failing.
[/quote]

 

Interesting. A few questions:

 

1) Who are the bad coaches - or are you saying that the coaches of ALL age groups are equally poor?

 

2) Having played a bit and having been coached by various people from Premier League players, retired internationals all the way through to the angry guy up the road who just liked shouting, I''d say that they all had individual merits so what makes a BAD coach?

 

3) All the coaching in the world is no substitute for ability, not just skill with the ball, but natural athleticism, pace and strength. Or are you suggesting that Norwich City are coaching OUT that natural ability?

 

I''m just interested as you seem to have some degree of inside knowledge and certainly seem to have some sort of experience as to what is going on in the youth set up.

 

 

 

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]

Green

Spillane Stephens Shackell Habergham

Henderson Rossi J Lathrope Dawkins

Cureton Bellamy

Subs: Ryan Jarvis, Paul Hayes, Luke Daley, Andy Marshall, Joe Lewis, Aaron Lee Barrett, Danny Crow [/quote]Glenn Roeder''s just orgasmed...

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Many kids get turned away from the academy for being too short and don''t take their footballing abilities into account, the scouting youth set up looks for early developed youngsters, so as long as they have some basic footballing skills they''ll get in.  By doing this the youngster will have an advantage over his peers for a number of years due to his physicality but as we all know eventually the later bloomers bloom, now the late bloomer will have the advantage because he had been better footballing wise from the starts but lack the physical stature so he''d had to work even harder on his ability to compensate his late blooming  and now the late bloomer has caught up his peers, he''s physically similar or near enough size and weight wise but with a greater set of footballing skills. So compared to other youth players we have the physical but not the ability.

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Norwich have good facilities so you can''t put the blame and that. The club also favour taking on rejected player from other academies over local youth recruitment.

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"You are still spouting conjecture"

So are you.

"You compared an average number to an actual number which is not good evidence for anything other than poor maths"

I''d need a £2m EU grant and a skilled team of geography and maths graduates to calculate the actual population of every clubs catchment area and an create an index which ranks our standing with competition factored in. Has there been a study like this? No there hasn''t. So the catchment area myth remains a myth until we know just how deep our catchment area is.

"Look at Leeds for example. A population of 1.5 million or there abouts. That''s one city"

Again you are throwing wild massively over-inflated population figures at me. First London had 3 million more people than it actually does, now Leeds has become bigger than Birmingham over night. The West Yorkshire urban area has a population of 1.5m people. The City of Leeds has a population of 443,247. That 1.5m is shared between four clubs.... Bradford, Halifax and Leeds, and Huddersfield. Then you have the huge number of clubs that fall within their 90 minute catchment area, including Manchester Utd, Man City, all those little clubs around Manchester, Barnsley, Sheffield Utd, Sheffield Wed, Rotherham, Doncaster, Oldham, Rochdale, Blackburn, York. What I am saying is that Norwich have a huge mass of population which has hardly any clubs competing for our players.

In North Norfolk we have whole areas in which we are only competing with Ipswich and Peterborough for players. That is precisely the point. By having the catchment area that we do have we have almost zero competition for the players that we could find but consistently fail to find.

"Many of the big teams will take players from smaller or less powerful clubs like the other year when we lost a young striker to Arsenal"

Yeah great example, we lost a player to a team outside of our catchment area. I assume they moved his family then? We are actually entitled to compensation when a kid is poached by another club, are we letting them go without a fight? If so, then why? No other club just lets them go.

"That overlapping only helps to ensure young players get every opportunity"

Exactly, the almost no-overlapping with much of our catchment area means that we are only competing with Ipswich and Peterborough for huge parts of our catchment area. As it happens I''ve heard somewhere that Ryan Bennett lived in Norfolk when he was in the IPSWICH youth team. So the same old no players in Norfolk myth. John Sutton''s not a bad little player is he? Or big player, that should be. He was hardly hidden in a North Norfolk swamp town and discovered kicking a pigs bladder with his six toed friends, he left Norwich at 11, why did he leave Norwich?

Crystal Player have a kid named Stuart O''Keefe who was born in Eye and raised in Norwich, he came through at Ipswich.

Jackson Ramm at Blackburn was born and raised in Norwich, he was released by us at 13, went to Cambridge and then got a move to Blackburn (who paid compo).

Colchester United have three Norwich born players in their U21 team.

Norfolk born players have long been coming through at Ipswich, Cambridge, Peterborough, even years ago when our Bristol centre was so productive.

Mark Tyler for a start, Adam Tann, Paul Warne, there have always been Norfolk born players coming through youth systems. Even Matty Gill.

Colchester, Cambridge, Ipswich, and Peterborough have always seemed happy to come and sign from Norfolk, so what''s so wrong with our catchment area?

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]"You are still spouting conjecture" So are you. "You compared an average number to an actual number which is not good evidence for anything other than poor maths" I''d need a £2m EU grant and a skilled team of geography and maths graduates to calculate the actual population of every clubs catchment area and an create an index which ranks our standing with competition factored in. Has there been a study like this? No there hasn''t. So the catchment area myth remains a myth until we know just how deep our catchment area is. "Look at Leeds for example. A population of 1.5 million or there abouts. That''s one city" Again you are throwing wild massively over-inflated population figures at me. First London had 3 million more people than it actually does, now Leeds has become bigger than Birmingham over night. The West Yorkshire urban area has a population of 1.5m people. The City of Leeds has a population of 443,247. That 1.5m is shared between four clubs.... Bradford, Halifax and Leeds, and Huddersfield. Then you have the huge number of clubs that fall within their 90 minute catchment area, including Manchester Utd, Man City, all those little clubs around Manchester, Barnsley, Sheffield Utd, Sheffield Wed, Rotherham, Doncaster, Oldham, Rochdale, Blackburn, York. What I am saying is that Norwich have a huge mass of population which has hardly any clubs competing for our players. In North Norfolk we have whole areas in which we are only competing with Ipswich and Peterborough for players. That is precisely the point. By having the catchment area that we do have we have almost zero competition for the players that we could find but consistently fail to find. "Many of the big teams will take players from smaller or less powerful clubs like the other year when we lost a young striker to Arsenal" Yeah great example, we lost a player to a team outside of our catchment area. I assume they moved his family then? We are actually entitled to compensation when a kid is poached by another club, are we letting them go without a fight? If so, then why? No other club just lets them go. "That overlapping only helps to ensure young players get every opportunity" Exactly, the almost no-overlapping with much of our catchment area means that we are only competing with Ipswich and Peterborough for huge parts of our catchment area. As it happens I''ve heard somewhere that Ryan Bennett lived in Norfolk when he was in the IPSWICH youth team. So the same old no players in Norfolk myth. John Sutton''s not a bad little player is he? Or big player, that should be. He was hardly hidden in a North Norfolk swamp town and discovered kicking a pigs bladder with his six toed friends, he left Norwich at 11, why did he leave Norwich? Crystal Player have a kid named Stuart O''Keefe who was born in Eye and raised in Norwich, he came through at Ipswich. Jackson Ramm at Blackburn was born and raised in Norwich, he was released by us at 13, went to Cambridge and then got a move to Blackburn (who paid compo). Colchester United have three Norwich born players in their U21 team. Norfolk born players have long been coming through at Ipswich, Cambridge, Peterborough, even years ago when our Bristol centre was so productive. Mark Tyler for a start, Adam Tann, Paul Warne, there have always been Norfolk born players coming through youth systems. Even Matty Gill. Colchester, Cambridge, Ipswich, and Peterborough have always seemed happy to come and sign from Norfolk, so what''s so wrong with our catchment area?[/quote]

 

The thing with our catchment area is that it traditionally doesn''t produce it''s fair quota of top players. Most of the players you mentioned were at Norwich at one stage. Are you saying they''d have redressed the balance if they''d remained with the club?

 

And are we still going with the ridiculous notion that the reason our catchment area traditionally doesn''t produce top players is because of Ricky Martin or because Sammy Morgan left?

 

 

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Under Sammy Morgan we churned out Danny Mills, Chris Sutton, and Ruel Fox, all players who came from within the 90 minute catchment area. It is you who is perpetuating the myth that our catchment area doesn''t produce it''s fair quota of top players.

My stance is that the club has produced far fewer top players since we severed ties with Bristol, and the fact that we have yet to produce a proven high-standard player under Ricky Martin is just an observation.

As promising as Adeyemi and Smith are, and as important as the latter was for us in League One, whether they achieve what Jason Shackell has in the game remains to be seen. That Ian Henderson is the most successful player to come through our system since Shackell, showing himself to be a good League One player, speaks wonders. I''m not necessarily saying that Ricky Martin has been the problem, but a problem there has been.

By high-standard player I mean one who is considered at least a top Championship player, as Shackell is.

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No, I''m not perpetuating any myth but you are talking poppycock. Norfolk has traditionally  not produced it''s fair share of top footballers. This can''t be because of Sammy Morgan being good or Ricky Martin being bad. You can''t start a meaningful debate with those views.

 

Do you agree that Norfolk has traditionally not produced it''s fair share of top footballers? If you do then it really isn''t much use isolating a particular few years just because you hold a grudge. Your turn....

 

 

 

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"The thing with our catchment area is that it traditionally doesn''t produce it''s fair quota of top players"

With Cambridgeshire and Suffolk also being in our catchment area, we have to add Kieron Dyer to the equation too.

Previous generation? You can get to Swineshead in 90 minutes, so add Chris Woods. Martin Peters, Louie Donowa, Matthew Upson, Dale Gordon, Richard Hall,

David Bentley is from Peterborough, Matthew Oakley Peterborough, Julian Joachim Peterborough.

Titus Bramble Ipswich, Richard Wright Ipswich, Jason Dozzell. Clive Baker was from Norfolk. Stuart Slater Suffolk, Ian Pearce, Daryl Sutch, James Scowcroft. Andy Marshall.

How many more examples from the last twenty or thirty years do you need before this stupid sub-standard catchment area myth can die a quick death?

East Anglia has pulled its weight. Norwich pulled its weight in the past, doesn''t now.

We get all this rural, hard to find players, lack of players rubbish, and yet Ipswich constantly churn out players despite the fact that Suffolk is almost as densely populated as Norfolk.

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"Do you agree that Norfolk has traditionally not produced it''s fair share of top footballers?"

No more so than Suffolk has produced more than its fair share of top footballers. But you are arguing a poor catchment area, and our catchment area extends beyond Norfolk. Our catchment area has proven fruitful. Clubs from Cambridgeshire and Suffolk sign players from Norfolk, and we have in the past signed players from Suffolk. I''ve just listed numerous top level footballers and England Internationals from our catchment area.

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]"The thing with our catchment area is that it traditionally doesn''t produce it''s fair quota of top players" With Cambridgeshire and Suffolk also being in our catchment area, we have to add Kieron Dyer to the equation too. Previous generation? You can get to Swineshead in 90 minutes, so add Chris Woods. Martin Peters, Louie Donowa, Matthew Upson, Dale Gordon, Richard Hall, David Bentley is from Peterborough, Matthew Oakley Peterborough, Julian Joachim Peterborough. Titus Bramble Ipswich, Richard Wright Ipswich, Jason Dozzell. Clive Baker was from Norfolk. Stuart Slater Suffolk, Ian Pearce, Daryl Sutch, James Scowcroft. Andy Marshall. How many more examples from the last twenty or thirty years do you need before this stupid sub-standard catchment area myth can die a quick death? East Anglia has pulled its weight. Norwich pulled its weight in the past, doesn''t now. We get all this rural, hard to find players, lack of players rubbish, and yet Ipswich constantly churn out players despite the fact that Suffolk is almost as densely populated as Norfolk.[/quote]

 

When?

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How many players born in Liverpool have met your "top player" criteria in the same period?

It seems like East Anglia is churning out less than one a year.

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Norwich the club, we''ve produced top players.

Your argument was that our catchment area doesn''t produce a fair quota of top players.

I''ve just listed numerous top players from our catchment area.

Now you want to shrink the catchment area to ''Norwich''?

Well let''s shrink Yorks catchment area to Your then, and Exeter''s catchment area to Exeter, and Lincoln''s catchment area to Lincoln then, if you want this comparison.

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Liverpool is the most productive city in England, hardly a fair comparison if you want to discuss a "fair share". Even Liverpool FC had a huge dry spell between producing Owen and Gerrard and their current bunch.

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[quote user="singupcarrowroad"]Norwich the club, we''ve produced top players. Your argument was that our catchment area doesn''t produce a fair quota of top players. I''ve just listed numerous top players from our catchment area. Now you want to shrink the catchment area to ''Norwich''? Well let''s shrink Yorks catchment area to Your then, and Exeter''s catchment area to Exeter, and Lincoln''s catchment area to Lincoln then, if you want this comparison.[/quote]

 

No I''m not. You constantly refuse to address  the point about Norfolk. You make spurious claims and then back track. And basically all you want to say is yopu don''t rate Ricky Martin. Then why not say it? Five words instead of all these ridiculkous and spurious "facts".

 

If you want to debate why Norfolk doesn''t traditionally produce it''s fair share of top players then you can''t just start with a few years where you have an axe to grind.

 

 

 

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Why isn''t Liverpool a fair comparison? Because it doesn''t fit with your argument?

 

Is it really the most productive city? I wouldn''t know but would presume that size alone makes London the most productive - but then I suppose that may be broken down into boroughs, I don''t know.

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I''m not attempting to present an argument against Ricky Martin''s employment, I''m attempting to present an argument against this pathetic excuse that you and the club use for our decade or more of zero-productivity during a period when our academy may not have existed.

In ten years our most successful academy product has reached the dizzy heights of being a regular for Colchester United. He happened to have been a local kid. Your excuse for that is that people from Norfolk aren''t very good at football.

I''m saying that we haven''t struggled to produce great players from our catchment area in the past, and gave numerous examples of great local kids including Danny Mills, Chris Sutton, Dale Gordon, Martin Peters, Ruel Fox, Louie Donawa, even Andy Marshall and Daryl Sutch were half decent.

After showing you quite clearly that we had no trouble in the Eightie''s and Ninetie''s finding decent local kids, but none in the fifteen years or so that have followed, you yourself are attempting to spin the argument towards one which suits you. You have challenged me several times to provide evidence of various things (including academy rules, and now evidence that we can produce local players), and when that evidence is produced you ignore it and spin the argument into something else.

"If you want to debate why Norfolk doesn''t traditionally produce it''s fair share of top players then you can''t just start with a few years where you have an axe to grind"

Well I''ve already gone back to the early eighties, I''m not going to go back to before I was born, I''ll leave that to the forum elders.

"And basically all you want to say is yopu don''t rate Ricky Martin"

That isn''t all that I want to say, but as it happens he has been in the job for almost a decade and during that decade we haven''t seen a single Championship standard player come through. With our club floating between the first and second tier of English football for fifty years, a brief foray into League One aside, he probably should be judged on the number of Championship standard players he can produce and it remains to be seen whether Korey Smith, Tom Adeyemi, and Declan Rudd, are his first bunch.

If in two years time it becomes apparent that they aren''t any better than Ian Henderson, then yes, perhaps it is time for us to change the personnel.

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"Why isn''t Liverpool a fair comparison? Because it doesn''t fit with your argument?"

The only way to calculate whether one place produces a fair share of players is to use a methodology which calculates the productivity of all areas of the the country, probably using professional players per one hundred thousand capita, and then work out the mean. If we sit a certain percentage below the mean then it would be fair to conclude that we do not produce our "fair share". Our standing would likely depend on whether you are calculating current players or players in the past 30 years. By using Liverpool as an example you are picking a city or are (Merseyside), which everybody knows would sit very close to the top, possibly even the very top, of the table.

"Is it really the most productive city?"

Per 100,000 capita then probably, yes. I said England because Glasgow also produces a hell of a lot. Counting number of players per city would be a ridiculous comparison, numbers per x capita would be a much more sensible one. For all the players that Merseyside produces, there were actually only three in the last England squad and Liverpool FC haven''t brought any top class local players through since Carragher and Gerrard, have they? They have a couple of local kids in their team now, but by no means guaranteed to stay in that league, Michael Branch was supposed to be an England player.... Jose Baxter was supposed to be the next Rooney. Scouse players are always over-hyped because every half talented kid is the "next Rooney". Jose "next Rooney" Baxter is kicking a ball with Lee "most capped England youth International" Croft at Oldham.

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