Ambition = Debt, right?

[0Amarillo<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>ddMMyyyy0Falseen-US<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>True 0]

Can I just clear this up, cos a lot of people are talking about ambition, or the supposed lack of it. Does ambition = anything other than debt in football, unless you''re Chelsea?

So when people talk about a ''lack of ambition'', they''re asking the board to spend money they don''t have and thereby go further into debt, is that right?

I just wanted to check, so we''re clear what''s being asked of the board here, and what the future implications for the club might be.

My take: Man City are now £62m in debt. Short of finding an Abramovich, I just don''t see how they are EVER going to pay that off. Are they mad? Do they WANT to be the next Leeds? Fools.

[Being Jan Kristiansen... 0]

We dont want to do a Leeds but we also dont want to do a Wolves.

In my opinion the management needs to adapt their financial thinking. Over recent times they have tended to buy cheap players with no resale value. (I will not use any examples from this season as a players worth is difficult to judge until they have completed a full season).

The one exception to this is Hux. He cost us about 1mil a year ago. How much is he worth now? I reckon at least £2mil. Ontop of that he helped us get into the Prem (and all the financial advantages of that).

Now which strategy is the best economically?

[0Amarillo<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>ddMMyyyy0Falseen-US<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>True 0]

Hmm, you can make stats prove anything of course. Iwan cost more than Hux, but didn''t get us into the Prem did he! Jonson cost more than Hux too.

I think you''re suggesting ("adapt their financial thinking" and "Now which strategy is the best economically") that the club should go further into debt, since that''s the only way you can spend money you don''t have.

It all comes down to the same choice. Do we increase debt to increase (but not guarantee) chances of staying up, but also increase our chances of doing a Bradford/Sheff Wed/Barnsley, or do we spend what we''ve got and see what happens. If we go down, we go down stronger than when we went up, regroup and have another run at it.

I think the board have taken the former course, which I agree with, but I know not everyone does. Wolves are a little different because of their financial backing, I''m not sure the numbers NEED to add up there like they do at Norwich.

You''re right about buying players whose value goes up though. Send your list of suggestions to Nigel so he can get to work - don''t post them here otherwise other clubs will know who they are too!! ;-)

[Being Jan Kristiansen... 0]

I want us to be a club that is capable of competing in the premeirship and if we go down do not have to wait another 9 years.

My point is that at some stage in the future the board are going to have to take a calculated risk inorder to achieve this.

[DumbleDelia is Magic 0]

We were ambitious last year and it worked out rather nicely.  Why couldn''t it this year?

[First Wizard 0]

[quote]We were ambitious last year and it worked out rather nicely. Why couldn''t it this year?[/quote]

Because DD, in my opinion, they are tight fisted cowards, every last one of them.

Even Delia, hasn''t given the club money, its a loan, which has to be paid back, yes?.

You know my views DD, wizards don''t hide behind fancy words, do they?.

I tell it, as I see it, warts and all, even if it does upset a lot if posters.

Plain language is always better I feel.

[KeelansGlove 0]

Strategy or lack of it

The sad thing is we don''t seem to be taking either course.

The players we have signed are not long term with most being 32+ we have not tempted any young starlets in the making who will be more experienced when we try to regain promotion next season.

We cobbled together a few players approaching the end of the road who do not seem to be much better than what we had. I see no reason why we she be able to compete in the championship let alone the premiership with our current squad and there is every possibility we will reverse the trend for tickets making both the Jarrold stand and the corner infill expensive white elephants.

Im not one of the Nigel out crowd (I don''t think that would help anyone) but I do feel he has done a very poor job so for this season both in terms of the team and tactics. He needs to take a long hard look at whats going on and start making a difference.

No ambition = No Crowds & no Sponsorship = debt right ? 

[First Wizard 0]

[quote]Can I just clear this up, cos a lot of people are talking about ambition, or the supposed lack of it. Does ambition = anything other than debt in football, unless you''re Chelsea? So when people talk ...[/quote]

As we''re already bloody millions of pounds in debt, do you really think we''ll pay it off, better and quicker in the fizzy pop league?. Don''t make me laugh.

Reduced revenue, TV pay outs, merchandise, etc etc.

Their eyes are open, oh lord, but they do not see.

[Tumbleweed 106]

But we HAVE spent money to try to stay in the Prem. Here''s a list: Helveg, Safri, Jonson, Charlton, Doherty, Bentley. As the Jonson fee was undisclosed we have no idea how much this lot actually cost, but there''s six extra Premiership wages for you.

How long do the Board keep sanctioning duff buys? You should be questioning the purchases we have made rather than screaming more more more.

Except for Charlton (who?) and Doherty (why?) we greeted these generally enthusiastically. But only Charlton is now a regular.

Why Jonson and not Kevin Cooper who did a splendid job at the crucial point last season?

I don''t want this club saddled by huge debt and we''re not part of the fashionable elite which might attract an oil billionaire as sugar daddy. If we have not signed the right players then we have to get rid of them to free funds up for replacements.

At the end of the day Nigel is responsible for transfers and the Board HAVE given him money which appears to have been squandered.

[We need a Manager 0]

Why give money to a manager who quite clearly does not know how to spend it ?? This summer we were crying out for a striker Crouch wanted to come (right man or not is debatable) but was deemed way to expensive at £2million . Yet we spend half a million on Safri and nearly a million on Doherty just to have them playing for the reserves. Helveg has hardly started , Jonson is poor(to put it mildly). Giving Worthington huge sums of money to spend could be a major mistake, his judgement of players is poor very poor.

[Campbell 0]

Being ambition in the Championship = spending £2m

Being ambitious in the Premiership = spending £7-10m

See the difference? If we go down this year, come back up next, we will spend between £7-10m, because we will then have the money. Think about what you''re asking the club to do...its just not possible in the current financial climate in football.

Another thing, if you don''t have money, you cannot spend it! Football clubs do not have credit cards. If they want a player, they can''t say to another club "yeah, we''ll have him, pay you over 5 years with the first year free, ok?" Football clubs want the money straight up, at least a large chunk of it anyway. 

Football clubs also go into administration...look at Leeds; potential Champions League winners a few years ago, now mid-table in the Championship; they spent beyond what they had, and when the debt was called in, they had to sell their best players to stay alive, and have now had to sell their own ground.

Do I like the situation? No...
Do I accept the situation? Yes, it''s modern football
Should you all stop being unrealistic? Of course

[Camberwick Green<IMG src="http:new.pinkun.comforumsimagesline.gif"><BR>Breathe the pressure, Come play my game Ill test ya !!!<BR><A class=authorlink href="http:" target=_blank><A><BR> 0]

Clubs may not have credit cards but they can agree payment terms. If you buy a £5m forward, that isn''t an immediate payment of £5m, more likely it''s spread over at least 2-3 years.

Additionally it''s not as if the club has no saleable assets (and I''m talking about players rather than buildings) Green will fetch £4-5m, Francis £1m-£2m, Huckerby £1-2m.  Where is the harm in cashing in on Green''s value and getting a forward for that price. Go down, Green goes anyway, you get the cash back by selling him. Stay up and another year of Sky, sell-outs, merchandising, sponsoship et al pays off the "gamble".

No-One is suggesting a £30m spree secured on Carrow Rd but to say "the money isn''t there" simply isn''t true. Some money could be found, In fact I''d say that that was very realistic and was modern football today. Our keeper will be with us maybe for 1 more year... why not use his value now to stay in this division???

Crouch may or may not have been the answer, but £2m is a cheap price to pay to stay on the gravy train for another year. Not signing him looks an extremely myopic decision given the current dearth of goals being scored by our forward line.

 

[bananaman 0]

Oh yeah, cos Crouch is really prolific isn''t he!!I think £2m for ANOTHER player that can''t score is not a good idea.

[Mr.Carrow 394]

The thing that annoys me about this idea of "you cant spend money you dont have" is how often the club have put out feel-good news items about how the club is booming over the last few seasons, yet still want to promote this image of being a club struggling financially.

Remember the land deal which was to "pay for the new stand"? Well,the £6mill.was to be paid to the club over three years, yet the loan which paid for the stand is being paid back over 25 years! Remember how quickly and early 19250 season ticket holders renewed for this season? I reckon that to be £4mill.+ guaranteed income. Remember the new executive boxes which were all snapped up on 3-year contracts? All those news articles about record shirt+merchandise sales? The share issues? The promotion bonuses from sponsors? Even the buy-a-brick promotion raised over 200k by my reckoning!

Obviously when fans discuss the financial situation at a club there are too many imponderables and unknowables to have an informed debate, however things just dont add up to me in a big way. Lets face it, we havent even spent all the money received for season tickets yet, let alone the massive sky money-and yes im aware much of this is received in instalments but this is GUARANTEED income.

Turnover will more than double this season yet i find it hard to believe that money spent on tranfers+player wages will be anything like double last seasons. Dont forget we have lost some big wage earners in Iwan,Malky+Rivers as well as gained some.

A speculative theory by way of an explanation to the apparent inconsistencies above-have some of the loans generously given by various board members over the last few seasons been called in?

[Camberwick Green<IMG src="http:new.pinkun.comforumsimagesline.gif"><BR>Breathe the pressure, Come play my game Ill test ya !!!<BR><A class=authorlink href="http:" target=_blank><A><BR> 0]

Another brilliant piece of strategic financial planning was with the redeemable shares. Remember the great news and how fantastic it was that almost £1.5m went back in to the transfer budget after the fans didn''t redeem? what about that cash? but again here''s the financial spin of the club... £1.5m for January, yes but we could have spent that money in August !!!! To keep back 100% of the possible redemption was absurd, when you consider that many of the shares are held by directors, who won''t redeem and fans who are unlikely to redeem.

In reality I think it was something like 20% that chose to redeem. Even if you went for a doomsday scenario of half the people will cash in, you''d still free up around £800k to buy someone. Whereas, what happend? In August we were told that there was little cash, couldn''t buy a £2m forward and then 2 months later BOOM !! oh here''s £1.5m that we hadn''t planned for.

That''s just inept.

And bananaman the point wasn''t about whether Crouch is the answer or not. I was trying to make the point that the forward the manager wanted (and that it''s obvious we need) wasn''t bought pre-season. Now if we go and buy someone in January, good, but wouldn''t you rather have had them at the start of the season, nicking the occasional goal now rather than giving them only half a season to perform a miracle???

[Being Jan Kristiansen... 0]

I am not going to critise what the board and management have done this year. True, this team is not good enough to stay up in its current form. We have not had the capital or reputation to compete against almost every other team in this league when trying to sign quality players. The management (I included the board as well as the coaches in this), after spending 9 long years out of the top flight, had to prepare for this season with no real knowledge of what it would be really like thus a lot of misjudgements have been made.

I will only be as angry a some on this message board if no lessons are learnt from this year.

 

Next season if we go down we will be in an opposite position than the one we are in now. We will have a reputation as being a possible Premiership club and we will be a financial heavy weight (especially if we sell Green). We can use this position to attract the cream of the 1^st Div players to come and play for us. 

 

I would spend about £4mil on Ashton, Morgan and Blake (I have on purpose picked good players in struggling clubs). This would give us a team of:

 

-                                         Ward

 

 

Charlton          Morgan                 Fleming                  Drury

 

 

Jonson             Safri                    Francis                    Hux