City View featuring Neil Doncaster

[CanaryPurple 0]

[quote user="canary cherub "][quote user="T"]

The only place I the saw that argument was on the message board so it seems to be you that it is perpetuating that view. Why the paranoid obsession with ND anyway. He is gone. It is the past. Move on.

[/quote]

Where else would you expect to see it?  Match programmes?  Archant?  I don''t think so . . .

 

[/quote]So let me get this straight, Cherub. You said:"He [Doncaster] promoted the idea that being a loyal fan meant being

unquestioningly loyal to the board, and those who believed it

naturally saw the sceptics as disloyal and treacherous."And you''re saying he didn''t do this in match day programmes or in his Archant columns, which are the obvious places for him to have done this, but here on this message board? Presumably surreptitiously, using a false name? Because I certainly don''t recall a "Neil Doncaster" poster here.I''m going to kick myself for asking this, but do you have the slightest evidence for this notion?

[canary cherub 1]

[quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="canary cherub "][quote user="T"]

The only place I the saw that argument was on the message board so it seems to be you that it is perpetuating that view. Why the paranoid obsession with ND anyway. He is gone. It is the past. Move on.

[/quote]

Where else would you expect to see it?  Match programmes?  Archant?  I don''t think so . . .

 

[/quote]

So let me get this straight, Cherub. You said:

"He [Doncaster] promoted the idea that being a loyal fan meant being unquestioningly loyal to the board, and those who believed it naturally saw the sceptics as disloyal and treacherous."

And you''re saying he didn''t do this in match day programmes or in his Archant columns, which are the obvious places for him to have done this, but here on this message board? Presumably surreptitiously, using a false name? Because I certainly don''t recall a "Neil Doncaster" poster here.

I''m going to kick myself for asking this, but do you have the slightest evidence for this notion?[/quote]

I''m going to kick myself for answering.

One of us has misunderstood T''s post I think.  I thought T was saying that he''d only seen the argument I was putting forward on this message board, not ND''s promotion of loyalty.  I could be mistaken of course, since it''s not entirely clear what T was replying to - quoting the relevant bit would have helped.

 

[CanaryPurple 0]

[quote user="canary cherub "][quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="canary cherub "][quote user="T"]

The only place I the saw that argument was on the message board so it seems to be you that it is perpetuating that view. Why the paranoid obsession with ND anyway. He is gone. It is the past. Move on.

[/quote]

Where else would you expect to see it?  Match programmes?  Archant?  I don''t think so . . .

 

[/quote]So let me get this straight, Cherub. You said:"He [Doncaster] promoted the idea that being a loyal fan meant being unquestioningly loyal to the board, and those who believed it naturally saw the sceptics as disloyal and treacherous."And you''re saying he didn''t do this in match day programmes or in his Archant columns, which are the obvious places for him to have done this, but here on this message board? Presumably surreptitiously, using a false name? Because I certainly don''t recall a "Neil Doncaster" poster here.I''m going to kick myself for asking this, but do you have the slightest evidence for this notion?[/quote]

I''m going to kick myself for answering.

One of us has misunderstood T''s post I think.  I thought T was saying that he''d only seen the argument I was putting forward on this message board, not ND''s promotion of loyalty.  I could be mistaken of course, since it''s not entirely clear what T was replying to - quoting the relevant bit would have helped.

 

[/quote]Cherub, I indeed think one of us has misunderstood T''s post. I definitely understood T to be saying  he/she had never seen Doncaster advocate blind loyalty, but he/she had seen posters CLAIM that was what Doncaster was advocating. "The only place I the saw that argument was on the message board." In other words T had never seen Doncaster making such an argument.But either way the main point is this. You said Doncaster "promoted" the idea of blind loyalty. Where and how did he do this? I''m not aware he did any such thing. Which is why I asked for evidence.

[gazzathegreat 0]

Duncan

The attendances were down to Andrew Cullen if a management figure has to be applauded, but really the attendance figures are down to us, the long suffering fans. Doncaster won''t be just remembered for attendances, but for steering the club into further debt, further decline and subjecting us to years of wishing and hoping for investment. Where was the proactive CE? Where was any idea or plan or any sign of ambition?

I don''t know what the figures were when he arrived but am surprised the season ticket base was as low as 6,000 odd.

I have very strong memories of Doncaster and selective or not the prevailing image is a smug jumped up man way out of his depth who (though not entirely his fault) kept his job due to further ineptitude of the majority shareholders.

Why Doncaster feels the need to brag about his "achievements" I don''t know. The club hardly prospered under his leadership did it? Best he keeps quiet.

[canary cherub 1]

[quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="canary cherub "][quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="canary cherub "][quote user="T"]

The only place I the saw that argument was on the message board so it seems to be you that it is perpetuating that view. Why the paranoid obsession with ND anyway. He is gone. It is the past. Move on.

[/quote]

Where else would you expect to see it?  Match programmes?  Archant?  I don''t think so . . .

 

[/quote]

So let me get this straight, Cherub. You said:

"He [Doncaster] promoted the idea that being a loyal fan meant being unquestioningly loyal to the board, and those who believed it naturally saw the sceptics as disloyal and treacherous."

And you''re saying he didn''t do this in match day programmes or in his Archant columns, which are the obvious places for him to have done this, but here on this message board? Presumably surreptitiously, using a false name? Because I certainly don''t recall a "Neil Doncaster" poster here.

I''m going to kick myself for asking this, but do you have the slightest evidence for this notion?[/quote]

I''m going to kick myself for answering.

One of us has misunderstood T''s post I think.  I thought T was saying that he''d only seen the argument I was putting forward on this message board, not ND''s promotion of loyalty.  I could be mistaken of course, since it''s not entirely clear what T was replying to - quoting the relevant bit would have helped.

 

[/quote]

Cherub, I indeed think one of us has misunderstood T''s post. I definitely understood T to be saying  he/she had never seen Doncaster advocate blind loyalty, but he/she had seen posters CLAIM that was what Doncaster was advocating. "The only place I the saw that argument was on the message board." In other words T had never seen Doncaster making such an argument.

But either way the main point is this. You said Doncaster "promoted" the idea of blind loyalty. Where and how did he do this? I''m not aware he did any such thing. Which is why I asked for evidence.
[/quote]

Clearly Doncaster would not have said "I''m going to promote unquestioning loyalty" in so many words, if that''s what you mean by evidence.  If you can see how the magician does the trick it loses its effect. 

But his weekly column he constantly pushed the idea that we''re all one big happy family and everything''s wonderful - "not like [insert name of club here]" - the implication being that if you question it, you''re the snake in the garden of Eden.  This is supposed to be a football club, but how often did his column ever talk about football except to make excuses for not investing in the "football department"? 

 

[CanaryPurple 0]

[quote user="canary cherub "]

Clearly Doncaster would not have said "I''m going to promote unquestioning loyalty" in so many words, if that''s what you mean by evidence.

[/quote]Yes, Cherub, that''s exactly what I mean by evidence. And, no, you don''t have any.

[The Fish Seller 0]

Attendances had already risen by 30% BEFORE Doomy became CE and this rise was if you remember limited by the capacity as the new stand was built. Exactly what caused the rise from 20k to 25k is arguable maybe it was the marketing men, maybe it was a run at the playoffs then shortly afterwards promotion to the Premiership, maybe we just did as the figures suggest and followed the National trend??Doomys claim is like any one of us saying "I fitted a new kitchen and painted the outside of my house and would you believe it went up by x% in the last ten years"?At face value this sounds like you''ve done a good job, but what if everybody elses house rose in value by x% at exactly the same time?And Cam..... Bankers!!!!!Specifically Investment Bankers get huge payouts in salary and bonuses regardless of how well they perform their jobs. Just because somebody is well salaried doesn''t mean they are any good but then CE jobs at football clubs tend not to appear in the sits vac columns much like you''ll never see six figure banking jobs with seven figure bonus packages attached there either. They tend to go to those with ''connections'' rather than ability.

Doomys legacy to the club is a securitisation deal to the tune of nearly £20,000,000 which swallows up a large chunk of the club income before it''s even generated and is half term already without as far as I can calculate a single cent being repaid off the capital sum. Oh and he oversaw the sale of one corner of our ground for 150 years for peanuts too.Taking into account that during his tenure as CE this club enjoyed huge sums of income way beyond any amounts we''d ever dreamed of before and  an eight figure sum in ''profits on player trading'' the argument that Doomy ''wasn''t very good at his job'' seems entirely plausible to me when you look at the aftermath of his tenure, I''ve met plenty like him in my industry they''re blaggers with an instinct to move on before the doo doo really hits the fan. Bet there''s not a day goes by at the moment when McNally doesn''t slap himself on the forehead in exasperation when he''s going through Doomys legacy.

[Mello Yello 2,293]

[quote user="Buckethead"]Attendances had already risen by 30% BEFORE Doomy became CE and this rise was if you remember limited by the capacity as the new stand was built. Exactly what caused the rise from 20k to 25k is arguable maybe it was the marketing men, maybe it was a run at the playoffs then shortly afterwards promotion to the Premiership, maybe we just did as the figures suggest and followed the National trend??

Doomys claim is like any one of us saying "I fitted a new kitchen and painted the outside of my house and would you believe it went up by x% in the last ten years"?

At face value this sounds like you''ve done a good job, but what if everybody elses house rose in value by x% at exactly the same time?

And Cam..... Bankers!!!!!

Specifically Investment Bankers get huge payouts in salary and bonuses regardless of how well they perform their jobs. Just because somebody is well salaried doesn''t mean they are any good but then CE jobs at football clubs tend not to appear in the sits vac columns much like you''ll never see six figure banking jobs with seven figure bonus packages attached there either. They tend to go to those with ''connections'' rather than ability.


Doomys legacy to the club is a securitisation deal to the tune of nearly £20,000,000 which swallows up a large chunk of the club income before it''s even generated and is half term already without as far as I can calculate a single cent being repaid off the capital sum.

Oh and he oversaw the sale of one corner of our ground for 150 years for peanuts too.

Taking into account that during his tenure as CE this club enjoyed huge sums of income way beyond any amounts we''d ever dreamed of before and  an eight figure sum in ''profits on player trading'' the argument that Doomy ''wasn''t very good at his job'' seems entirely plausible to me when you look at the aftermath of his tenure, I''ve met plenty like him in my industry they''re blaggers with an instinct to move on before the doo doo really hits the fan. Bet there''s not a day goes by at the moment when McNally doesn''t slap himself on the forehead in exasperation when he''s going through Doomys legacy.
[/quote]

 

[canary cherub 1]

[quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="canary cherub "]

Clearly Doncaster would not have said "I''m going to promote unquestioning loyalty" in so many words, if that''s what you mean by evidence.

[/quote]

Yes, Cherub, that''s exactly what I mean by evidence. And, no, you don''t have any.[/quote]

So let me get this straight Purple.

The only evidence you will accept is evidence which by definition does not exist, for the reason stated above (which I notice you chose not to quote).

That''s a circular, self-justifying argument.  In other words, you''ve just disappeared up your own backside (and not for the first time).  Enjoy!! 

Byeee . . .  [:P]

 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Does anybody else think football on the pitch had something to do with increased attendances[:^)]

Or were the marketing guys so clever the product didn''t matter[*-)]

people came for the football[:^)]

Now there''s a novelty[:S]

 

[CanaryPurple 0]

[quote user="canary cherub "][quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="canary cherub "]

Clearly Doncaster would not have said "I''m going to promote unquestioning loyalty" in so many words, if that''s what you mean by evidence.

[/quote]Yes, Cherub, that''s exactly what I mean by evidence. And, no, you don''t have any.[/quote]

So let me get this straight Purple.

The only evidence you will accept is evidence which by definition does not exist, for the reason stated above (which I notice you chose not to quote).

That''s a circular, self-justifying argument.  In other words, you''ve just disappeared up your own backside (and not for the first time).  Enjoy!! 

Byeee . . .  [:P]

 

[/quote]Not at all, Cherub, it''s not that the only evidence I will accept is evidence that BY DEFINITION doesn''t exist. It''s simply that the evidence I was asking you to provide you can''t provide because it doesn''t exist. It could exist, if Doncaster had done what you originally said he''d done, which was to promote blind loyalty. But as he never did - you simply made up this idea - the evidence isn''t there.One of us has certainly disappeared up something or other, but it ain''t me.

[YankeeCanary 0]

 

....and so, Cherub strikes ( out ) again. Pity.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Does anybody else think football on the pitch had something to do with increased attendances[:^)]

Or were the marketing guys so clever the product didn''t matter[*-)]

people came for the football[:^)]

Now there''s a novelty[:S]

 

[/quote]

So on that basis Nutty the attendences for the last four years should have spirraled downwards along with the team and crap performances and relegation.

Only since Mcnally and Lambert have arrived has the football been worth paying the money for since the seasons of promotion and Prem.

So as the corporates depart (look at the empty boxes for a start) then the crowd figures, unless generated by the same system Bob used, will decline.

They have this season and unless a great chunk of goodwill remains then without promotion and a sustained effort in the Champs then along with many things, the "supporters" will depart, or the stadium filled with people all attending on the cheap.

If that happens then I hope the "kids for a quid" family attenders bring enough pocket money to fill the blankets to stave off liquidation.

Then we will see if the investment in infrastructure and Tangys intaggible fixed assets look such a good idea.

But no doubt you and I will still be shouting along with gazza and a few more who take the punishment as part and parcel of supporting our team.

There will always be a solid 8-10k of support out there and the club know it and rely on it.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

I don''t agree Butler my friend. I feel you are talking about winning football. I reckon It''s been a while since we''ve won a few games so convincingly but there''s still been football to see. In the last four seasons I have seen goals as good as any I''ve seen before. I have seen good games and watched good players. But I have been disappointed because we haven''t won often enough. Surely there cannot be 20,000 people who continually spend hundreds of pounds a year on something they don''t enjoy.

Let me just add that although by the beginning of October I had seen three thumping home wins I had also seen our heaviest ever home defeat and the most tedious 0-0 draw it''s ever been my misfortune to witness.

Our resurgence under Worthington and that wonderful run to the play offs that brought the crowds flooding in. The promotion season and the excitement of Darren Huckerby helped bed them in and they have been loyal ever since. I just don''t go along with the widespread belief on here that we are all stupid and get conned into parting with hundreds of pounds for something we don''t want.

 

[CanaryPurple 0]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

 

....and so, Cherub strikes ( out ) again. Pity.

[/quote]Yankee, as I understand it, Cherub''s argument is this:The fact that there is no evidence IS evidence. Classic Cherub!

[The Butler 0]

Not winning football but GOOD football there can be a vast difference.

I think a lot enjoy the "experience"

I have friends who have tickets that cost them thousands a season. They don''t miss a home game BUT fans of football well....

They enjoy the drink and meal beforehand , the after match chat etc the atmosphere, but call them fans?

There are several people like that who when the mood takes will move on, some already have. As I said look at the empty boxes.

What happened before can and will happen again.

We had 40k crowds once where did they all go?

They also spent their hard earnt money but other things came along and they drifted away.

Football is a hard mistress and fans should never be taken for granted as has happened.

Big clubs can fall and new ones take their place (for a time) Those fans also come and go.

Just because you are happy with what you get does not mean everyone is and will remain so.

As I said lets see what happens if (and I hope it doesen''t) the wheels fall off our cart again and we don''t get promotion and the football remains third division.

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]

 

....and so, Cherub strikes ( out ) again. Pity.

[/quote]

Yankee, as I understand it, Cherub''s argument is this:

The fact that there is no evidence IS evidence. Classic Cherub!


[/quote]

Exactly! I''m sure she realises ( in her rare lucid moments ) that she was not well suited for a job as a justice of the peace. She''s a rhubarb....or at least she was at one time. I suspect she''s a Harold Wilson disciple from her youth and thereby developed this attraction for plots on every imaginable front.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Well I fail to see how the football this season is better than the previous four. Players like Safri, Etuhu, Huckerby, Dublin and Earnshaw were far better and far more exciting than what we have now. But I guess it''s a case of each to their own.

It''s over 40 years since we had a crowd of 40,000 and I think the only time we have had crowds that big has been for cup matches.It''s  probably over 30 years since we had a crowd of 30,000.  I reckon we could get 30,000 this season if we were succesful and the stadium was big enough. But if we got back in the Prem I doubt we''d get much more. You see big gates do go hand in hand with winning football. When we won the Second Division in 1972 the  football at times was dire. Much worse than we see now. But we got crowds sometimes over 30,000. But if we ended up in the Prem say like a Fulham or Bolton we wouldn''t win enough to sustain big crowds.

So if we are competetive in this league and keep an interest ''til the end of the season I reckon the gates will hold up next season, even if we''re not promoted. But if we ened up down with the dead men in this league they will drift away.

 

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]

 

....and so, Cherub strikes ( out ) again. Pity.

[/quote]

Yankee, as I understand it, Cherub''s argument is this:

The fact that there is no evidence IS evidence. Classic Cherub!


[/quote]

Exactly! I''m sure she realises ( in her rare lucid moments ) that she was not well suited for a job as a justice of the peace. She''s a rhubarb....or at least she was at one time. I suspect she''s a Harold Wilson disciple from her youth and thereby developed this attraction for plots on every imaginable front.

[/quote]

Dear oh dear.  There is no definitive, black-and-white, irrefutable, non-arguable, 100% sure evidence for evolutionary theory.....So i take it you two are creationists?  Alistair Campbell is known as the "King of Spin", now do you think there is "evidence" one way or the other whether he was or not?

[gazzathegreat 0]

Nutty, are you really saying the football (since the arrival of Lambert) is not better than last year? Maybe it''s all to do with wishes, hoping that at last the combination of a manager who can actually manage, the emergance of a team spirit (rather than a group of aimless individuals) and real competitiveness can achieve promotion? Going back to Safri, Hucks at their best, maybe the football was better, but post relegation and latter day Worthy, Grant, Roeder and Gunn, no.

Last season we were on a downward slope. Changing managers didn''t help (without getting into the rights and wrongs of that), the general mood was gloomy. Infighting between fans, ill will towards the board etc etc....of course the numbers were still high (many of us had bought season tickets). The mood worsened of course following our surrender at Charlton and the relegation that followed. The general thoughts of supporters towards the club was reflected in the good old refund fiasco. Yet NCFC fans are a tough bunch who attend not soley for entertainment/success. It''s as much to do with a love of the club and a never say die attitude. To which end the marketing dept milked for all it was worth.

I have to say, just for me, the mood this season (since Lambert) has brightened. He seems to be working towards an achievable aim of promotion and the feel good factor is back. There is still much to do and it''s certainly not perfect. But under Gunn I think by now I would have to attend all matches well under the influence of a good big glass of red.

Crowd size doesn''t really relate to the standards of football. Many external factors contribute. No way is anything we have seen in the past five years comparable to 1992-4 (and you can add on the five years preceding those). But we had smaller crowds then. The nature of the average supporter has changed. More families, more people on subsidised tickets, more interest in football in general?

As Butler says, there is a hardcore of support who will go whatever the standard of football. However I can''t see how the club can rely on that - given the level of debt and the economic climate we HAVE to go up this year. To suggest we can maintain NCFC as a business (let alone a football team) with Division Three income is fairytale stuff. We can only hope that the introduction of a competent person as CE and a capable manager has happened just in the nick of time.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="YankeeCanary"]

 

....and so, Cherub strikes ( out ) again. Pity.

[/quote]

Yankee, as I understand it, Cherub''s argument is this:

The fact that there is no evidence IS evidence. Classic Cherub!


[/quote]

Exactly! I''m sure she realises ( in her rare lucid moments ) that she was not well suited for a job as a justice of the peace. She''s a rhubarb....or at least she was at one time. I suspect she''s a Harold Wilson disciple from her youth and thereby developed this attraction for plots on every imaginable front.

[/quote]

Dear oh dear.  There is no definitive, black-and-white, irrefutable, non-arguable, 100% sure evidence for evolutionary theory.....So i take it you two are creationists?  Alistair Campbell is known as the "King of Spin", now do you think there is "evidence" one way or the other whether he was or not?

[/quote]

On reflection that wasn`t a very good post first thing on a Saturday morning with a hangover.....

Of course there is evidence for the things above but no absolute proof.  There is evidence for Cherubs argument- his branding as "unhelpful" difficult questions and the way the board rounded on a friend of mine (So much so that Delia sent him a letter of apology) for asking difficult questions at the `07 AGM.  But most of the evidence is hidden in the reams and reams of columns and interviews the slant of which builds up a certain picture over time.

[CanaryPurple 0]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

On reflection that wasn`t a very good post first thing on a Saturday morning with a hangover.....

[/quote]Well, it''s certainly the first time I''ve been accused of being a creationist!!!

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="gazzathegreat"]Nutty, are you really saying the football (since the arrival of Lambert) is not better than last year? [/quote]

No Gazza!  Great post but the very first bit is wrong. Why do people continually credit me with saying stuff I don''t[:S]

What I am saying is that we''ve seen a lot of good football over the last four years. It was in reply to The Butlers opinion that "Only since Mcnally and Lambert have arrived has the football been worth paying the money for since the seasons of promotion and Prem."

Now I would suggest the football we saw in August/Sept 2006 was streets ahead of what we are seeing now. And at a much higher level too.

 

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="gazzathegreat"]Nutty, are you really saying the football (since the arrival of Lambert) is not better than last year? Maybe it''s all to do with wishes, hoping that at last the combination of a manager who can actually manage, the emergance of a team spirit (rather than a group of aimless individuals) and real competitiveness can achieve promotion? Going back to Safri, Hucks at their best, maybe the football was better, but post relegation and latter day Worthy, Grant, Roeder and Gunn, no. Last season we were on a downward slope. Changing managers didn''t help (without getting into the rights and wrongs of that), the general mood was gloomy. Infighting between fans, ill will towards the board etc etc....of course the numbers were still high (many of us had bought season tickets). The mood worsened of course following our surrender at Charlton and the relegation that followed. The general thoughts of supporters towards the club was reflected in the good old refund fiasco. Yet NCFC fans are a tough bunch who attend not soley for entertainment/success. It''s as much to do with a love of the club and a never say die attitude. To which end the marketing dept milked for all it was worth. I have to say, just for me, the mood this season (since Lambert) has brightened. He seems to be working towards an achievable aim of promotion and the feel good factor is back. There is still much to do and it''s certainly not perfect. But under Gunn I think by now I would have to attend all matches well under the influence of a good big glass of red. Crowd size doesn''t really relate to the standards of football. Many external factors contribute. No way is anything we have seen in the past five years comparable to 1992-4 (and you can add on the five years preceding those). But we had smaller crowds then. The nature of the average supporter has changed. More families, more people on subsidised tickets, more interest in football in general? As Butler says, there is a hardcore of support who will go whatever the standard of football. However I can''t see how the club can rely on that - given the level of debt and the economic climate we HAVE to go up this year. To suggest we can maintain NCFC as a business (let alone a football team) with Division Three income is fairytale stuff. We can only hope that the introduction of a competent person as CE and a capable manager has happened just in the nick of time.[/quote]

Thanks Gazza but as usual Nutty will select one line emphasize it and accuse you of being wrong on that bit.

Overall our argument holds up, but disected, like a frog, bits fall apart.

It''s the overall effect that I see.

Football since Gunn has gone has improved from the dire we watched last season and the season before that. We are in Div3 so we can adjust our sights, but it is better.

Nutty lives in his own happy world and good for him, but denial that outside of that bubble life is different has a habit of biting your bum.

In the end if City fall apart, the current directors will go back to their million pound pads, maybe a bit worse off but not breadline.

We the fans will still be there bearing the "fall out" worse off in our worlds!

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="gazzathegreat"]Nutty, are you really saying the football (since the arrival of Lambert) is not better than last year? Maybe it''s all to do with wishes, hoping that at last the combination of a manager who can actually manage, the emergance of a team spirit (rather than a group of aimless individuals) and real competitiveness can achieve promotion? Going back to Safri, Hucks at their best, maybe the football was better, but post relegation and latter day Worthy, Grant, Roeder and Gunn, no. Last season we were on a downward slope. Changing managers didn''t help (without getting into the rights and wrongs of that), the general mood was gloomy. Infighting between fans, ill will towards the board etc etc....of course the numbers were still high (many of us had bought season tickets). The mood worsened of course following our surrender at Charlton and the relegation that followed. The general thoughts of supporters towards the club was reflected in the good old refund fiasco. Yet NCFC fans are a tough bunch who attend not soley for entertainment/success. It''s as much to do with a love of the club and a never say die attitude. To which end the marketing dept milked for all it was worth. I have to say, just for me, the mood this season (since Lambert) has brightened. He seems to be working towards an achievable aim of promotion and the feel good factor is back. There is still much to do and it''s certainly not perfect. But under Gunn I think by now I would have to attend all matches well under the influence of a good big glass of red. Crowd size doesn''t really relate to the standards of football. Many external factors contribute. No way is anything we have seen in the past five years comparable to 1992-4 (and you can add on the five years preceding those). But we had smaller crowds then. The nature of the average supporter has changed. More families, more people on subsidised tickets, more interest in football in general? As Butler says, there is a hardcore of support who will go whatever the standard of football. However I can''t see how the club can rely on that - given the level of debt and the economic climate we HAVE to go up this year. To suggest we can maintain NCFC as a business (let alone a football team) with Division Three income is fairytale stuff. We can only hope that the introduction of a competent person as CE and a capable manager has happened just in the nick of time.[/quote]

Thanks Gazza but as usual Nutty will select one line emphasize it and accuse you of being wrong on that bit.

Overall our argument holds up, but disected, like a frog, bits fall apart.

It''s the overall effect that I see.

Football since Gunn has gone has improved from the dire we watched last season and the season before that. We are in Div3 so we can adjust our sights, but it is better.

Nutty lives in his own happy world and good for him, but denial that outside of that bubble life is different has a habit of biting your bum.

In the end if City fall apart, the current directors will go back to their million pound pads, maybe a bit worse off but not breadline.

We the fans will still be there bearing the "fall out" worse off in our worlds!

[/quote]

So in your little bubble three wins in the third division are better than watching players like Safri, Etuhu, Huckerby, Earnshaw, Dublin....

And that goal Hucks scored against Birmingham[:O] Are you looking forward to one like that this afternoon[:^)]

What about that dire 0-0 against Walsall[:^)] Did you witness anything so boring even last season?

Last weeks gem was that Lambert was already a better manager than Worthington.

Now we are better than at anytime since we were relegated from the Premiership.

So it''s Division Three forever[:^)]

You couldn''t make this up.. it''s me being mis-quoted here[:)]

I''m still going to enjoy my afternoon though[Y]

 

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="gazzathegreat"]Nutty, are you really saying the football (since the arrival of Lambert) is not better than last year? Maybe it''s all to do with wishes, hoping that at last the combination of a manager who can actually manage, the emergance of a team spirit (rather than a group of aimless individuals) and real competitiveness can achieve promotion? Going back to Safri, Hucks at their best, maybe the football was better, but post relegation and latter day Worthy, Grant, Roeder and Gunn, no. Last season we were on a downward slope. Changing managers didn''t help (without getting into the rights and wrongs of that), the general mood was gloomy. Infighting between fans, ill will towards the board etc etc....of course the numbers were still high (many of us had bought season tickets). The mood worsened of course following our surrender at Charlton and the relegation that followed. The general thoughts of supporters towards the club was reflected in the good old refund fiasco. Yet NCFC fans are a tough bunch who attend not soley for entertainment/success. It''s as much to do with a love of the club and a never say die attitude. To which end the marketing dept milked for all it was worth. I have to say, just for me, the mood this season (since Lambert) has brightened. He seems to be working towards an achievable aim of promotion and the feel good factor is back. There is still much to do and it''s certainly not perfect. But under Gunn I think by now I would have to attend all matches well under the influence of a good big glass of red. Crowd size doesn''t really relate to the standards of football. Many external factors contribute. No way is anything we have seen in the past five years comparable to 1992-4 (and you can add on the five years preceding those). But we had smaller crowds then. The nature of the average supporter has changed. More families, more people on subsidised tickets, more interest in football in general? As Butler says, there is a hardcore of support who will go whatever the standard of football. However I can''t see how the club can rely on that - given the level of debt and the economic climate we HAVE to go up this year. To suggest we can maintain NCFC as a business (let alone a football team) with Division Three income is fairytale stuff. We can only hope that the introduction of a competent person as CE and a capable manager has happened just in the nick of time.[/quote]

Thanks Gazza but as usual Nutty will select one line emphasize it and accuse you of being wrong on that bit.

Overall our argument holds up, but disected, like a frog, bits fall apart.

It''s the overall effect that I see.

Football since Gunn has gone has improved from the dire we watched last season and the season before that. We are in Div3 so we can adjust our sights, but it is better.

Nutty lives in his own happy world and good for him, but denial that outside of that bubble life is different has a habit of biting your bum.

In the end if City fall apart, the current directors will go back to their million pound pads, maybe a bit worse off but not breadline.

We the fans will still be there bearing the "fall out" worse off in our worlds!

[/quote]

So in your little bubble three wins in the third division are better than watching players like Safri, Etuhu, Huckerby, Earnshaw, Dublin....

And that goal Hucks scored against Birmingham[:O] Are you looking forward to one like that this afternoon[:^)]

What about that dire 0-0 against Walsall[:^)] Did you witness anything so boring even last season?

Last weeks gem was that Lambert was already a better manager than Worthington.

Now we are better than at anytime since we were relegated from the Premiership.

So it''s Division Three forever[:^)]

You couldn''t make this up.. it''s me being mis-quoted here[:)]

I''m still going to enjoy my afternoon though[Y]

 

[/quote]

You are doing it again. I have not said Lambert is better than Worthy, although in the end he just might be.

I am comparing the dross that we watched, in general, over the last few easons to the entertaining football of the last few games (Walsal excepted but it was better than loosing 7-1 wasn''t it).

Most of your list of players have been gone at least a season or more had we have kept them we might just be watching a Div2 game this afternoon.

I will enjoy the football while we play in the way we have been of late, pray that it is good enough to get us out of this league and then pray harder that SOMEONE gets some money to make sure we stay up.

If we don''t do any of the above then you may just find the terraces a little emptier than of late!

Have a good afternoon and give a kiss to the new babe from your friend The Butler[:D]

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="gazzathegreat"]Nutty, are you really saying the football (since the arrival of Lambert) is not better than last year? Maybe it''s all to do with wishes, hoping that at last the combination of a manager who can actually manage, the emergance of a team spirit (rather than a group of aimless individuals) and real competitiveness can achieve promotion? Going back to Safri, Hucks at their best, maybe the football was better, but post relegation and latter day Worthy, Grant, Roeder and Gunn, no. Last season we were on a downward slope. Changing managers didn''t help (without getting into the rights and wrongs of that), the general mood was gloomy. Infighting between fans, ill will towards the board etc etc....of course the numbers were still high (many of us had bought season tickets). The mood worsened of course following our surrender at Charlton and the relegation that followed. The general thoughts of supporters towards the club was reflected in the good old refund fiasco. Yet NCFC fans are a tough bunch who attend not soley for entertainment/success. It''s as much to do with a love of the club and a never say die attitude. To which end the marketing dept milked for all it was worth. I have to say, just for me, the mood this season (since Lambert) has brightened. He seems to be working towards an achievable aim of promotion and the feel good factor is back. There is still much to do and it''s certainly not perfect. But under Gunn I think by now I would have to attend all matches well under the influence of a good big glass of red. Crowd size doesn''t really relate to the standards of football. Many external factors contribute. No way is anything we have seen in the past five years comparable to 1992-4 (and you can add on the five years preceding those). But we had smaller crowds then. The nature of the average supporter has changed. More families, more people on subsidised tickets, more interest in football in general? As Butler says, there is a hardcore of support who will go whatever the standard of football. However I can''t see how the club can rely on that - given the level of debt and the economic climate we HAVE to go up this year. To suggest we can maintain NCFC as a business (let alone a football team) with Division Three income is fairytale stuff. We can only hope that the introduction of a competent person as CE and a capable manager has happened just in the nick of time.[/quote]

Thanks Gazza but as usual Nutty will select one line emphasize it and accuse you of being wrong on that bit.

Overall our argument holds up, but disected, like a frog, bits fall apart.

It''s the overall effect that I see.

Football since Gunn has gone has improved from the dire we watched last season and the season before that. We are in Div3 so we can adjust our sights, but it is better.

Nutty lives in his own happy world and good for him, but denial that outside of that bubble life is different has a habit of biting your bum.

In the end if City fall apart, the current directors will go back to their million pound pads, maybe a bit worse off but not breadline.

We the fans will still be there bearing the "fall out" worse off in our worlds!

[/quote]

So in your little bubble three wins in the third division are better than watching players like Safri, Etuhu, Huckerby, Earnshaw, Dublin....

And that goal Hucks scored against Birmingham[:O] Are you looking forward to one like that this afternoon[:^)]

What about that dire 0-0 against Walsall[:^)] Did you witness anything so boring even last season?

Last weeks gem was that Lambert was already a better manager than Worthington.

Now we are better than at anytime since we were relegated from the Premiership.

So it''s Division Three forever[:^)]

You couldn''t make this up.. it''s me being mis-quoted here[:)]

I''m still going to enjoy my afternoon though[Y]

 

[/quote]

You are doing it again. I have not said Lambert is better than Worthy, although in the end he just might be.

I am comparing the dross that we watched, in general, over the last few easons to the entertaining football of the last few games (Walsal excepted but it was better than loosing 7-1 wasn''t it).

Most of your list of players have been gone at least a season or more had we have kept them we might just be watching a Div2 game this afternoon.

I will enjoy the football while we play in the way we have been of late, pray that it is good enough to get us out of this league and then pray harder that SOMEONE gets some money to make sure we stay up.

If we don''t do any of the above then you may just find the terraces a little emptier than of late!

Have a good afternoon and give a kiss to the new babe from your friend The Butler[:D]

[/quote]

20,000 City Fans all stand together even if they have differing views[Y]

Friendships are forged between them[Y][Y]

It''s how it is and how it should be[Y][Y][Y]

And those that can''t manage that can go boil their heads[;)]

Thanks Butler.

 

[Crafty Canary 495]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well to be fair the one of the main reasons why fans didn''t vote with their feet was that the Evening News columnists of the day encouraged them to hound out the manager instead. I don''t remember them suggesting a protest against any of the board or chief exec. In fact their only fault seemed to be that they were supporting that manager for too long. This just goes to show how people can shift blame seamlessly from one target to another when the results are poor and the changes they crave don''t work out.

Doncaster must have had something to do with the our good attendances although to claim full credit in the way this reads is ridiculous. Worthy had far more to do with the increased attendances than Doncaster could ever dream of having. But the man has class, has conducted himself impeccably and his dignity remains in tact a full three years after he was sacked.

 

[/quote]

That was brilliant the way you managed to get Worthy into a Doncaster thread!![:D]

I bet you start bedtime stories to the grandchildren "once upon a time there was this Irish saint called Nigel"[;)]

[/quote]

At least they don''t get scared like yours do with "Once upon a time there was a wicked witch..........

[;)]

[/quote]

If only your use of tense was correct. So far as I know the wicked witch is still there.