1996 - ?.. Is it all down to the Wicked Cook?

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

So........

Are we saying we should we now be using where this club was under Worthington as a benchmark instead of the 80''s and early 90''s?

Is West brom now the model we should aspire to? What can we learn from them? Last season at this time it was Hull. Hull have now caught that nasty disease. They want the manager sacked. I saw a fan on TV last night saying Brown had done really well but they needed a new manager to take the club forwards....

Where do they think they''re going[:^)]

 

[/quote]I heard on Match of the day that Brown had left the players on the pitch on boxing day at half time to "learn ''em" for their shocking first half performance.  They were something like 4th in the table before that match.  After that match they won about 1 game all season, and I think that was the game that kept them up.  I find it hard to believe that he has lost the dressing room for 10 months without the chairman stepping in though - it could be that he has taken them as far as he can.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="Slow The Bgger Down"]I reckon that IF we''d have stayed in the Prem League for the past five years, even if we finished fourth  from bottom each time.  You wouldn''t be calling it a disease now.  Anyway according to you, anybody who have been in the Prem League whether they are still there or have been relegated have the disease.  The disease analogy is gay, it has a shitness rating of 1.6.This thread gets dafter by the minute. 

Why not just have a sliding scale of shitness from 1-10 for football teams?  The shitness of the club is formulated by team performance and board performance.

We have a shitness of around 2.5, which recently has risen from an earlier 2.4  Hull''s shitness rating is 8, they were 8.5 so the fans feel that they are slowly become more sh*t, and they want to stop the shitometer sliding.
[/quote]

That''s a good post. It is exactly how us fans view our club. So do Hull fans and West Brom fans. Of course we believed we had a shitness value of 2.5 when Worthingtons team finished 9th in the Championship. And Hull fans probably believe they have a shitness value of 2.5 now. The scale only gets bigger as their club falls down the leagues. Had we have not got two injury time equalisers in the last two games we would now be in the Third Division relegation places. I reckon our shitness scale could easily have been 1.5 to 2.

I reckon the truth is the Premier League isn''t the old First Division and comparisons are pointless. When it was the First Division it was part of the Football League. If you won promotion to the First Division it was as if you moved into a better house but you belonged there. Now if you win promotion it''s like you kind of belong there but as though you are a guest or a lodger. We were founder members of the Premier league back in the 90''s but I doubt when they signed up back then Big Bob or anyone imagined it would become what it is now.

The Football League is run by people who consider the wider issues of the game. As is EUFA and FIFA. That''s why the comments from Platini, Blatter and Mawhinney always seem at odds with the Premier League clubs.

 

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

So........

Are we saying we should we now be using where this club was under Worthington as a benchmark instead of the 80''s and early 90''s?

Is West brom now the model we should aspire to? What can we learn from them? Last season at this time it was Hull. Hull have now caught that nasty disease. They want the manager sacked. I saw a fan on TV last night saying Brown had done really well but they needed a new manager to take the club forwards....

Where do they think they''re going[:^)]

 

[/quote]

Stop jumping the gun (or is that Gunn)

Before we use any club to aspire to we need figures and facts. You know the things that T doesn''t make up.

I would like to see some analysis of West Broms accounts as to how they are managing to at least yo yo.

Hull ...back to Rugby league perhaps!

I for one will NEVER EVER EVER agree to bench mark our achievements by, what was his name, can''t think, it''s been that long since anyone mentioned him.Unless of course we are really going to have to settle for third best from now on. Then that period will look reasonable.(Now time for me to lay down in a dark room and sob)[li]

[/quote]

The last i heard West Brom had zero debt, but i must admit i haven`t got a clue how they have managed this with a pretty modern stadium. 

They have also done very well from appreciating- unlike us- that top young talent doesn`t come cheap but that paying the going rate can reap huge rewards in terms of promotions, cup-runs, big gates and, when necessary, cashing in on selling players but injecting the proceeds straight back into the team to keep the club moving forward.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

When did you hear that Mr Carrow?

I reckon West Brom fans see themselves at about 4 on the shitometer although they probably gave ''em a foive before the defeat at the weekend. Us football fans are notoriously fickle.

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

When did you hear that Mr Carrow?

I reckon West Brom fans see themselves at about 4 on the shitometer although they probably gave ''em a foive before the defeat at the weekend. Us football fans are notoriously fickle.

 

[/quote]

Admittedly not the most reliable source- D.Smith a couple of seasons ago "West Brom have come down with no debt".

Footy fans are fickle.  Yep, that`s the unchangeable reality.  I wouldn`t see fans of a club with 25k gates who`ve spent most of their recent history in the top league, being quite upset at the fact that they are at their lowest ebb for 40 years, in a "dire" financial situation within a few years of receiving tens of millions of pounds tv and transfer cash as being fickle though......

[kdncfc 0]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

So........

Are we saying we should we now be using where this club was under Worthington as a benchmark instead of the 80''s and early 90''s?

Is West brom now the model we should aspire to? What can we learn from them? Last season at this time it was Hull. Hull have now caught that nasty disease. They want the manager sacked. I saw a fan on TV last night saying Brown had done really well but they needed a new manager to take the club forwards....

Where do they think they''re going[:^)]

 

[/quote]

Stop jumping the gun (or is that Gunn)

Before we use any club to aspire to we need figures and facts. You know the things that T doesn''t make up.

I would like to see some analysis of West Broms accounts as to how they are managing to at least yo yo.

Hull ...back to Rugby league perhaps!

I for one will NEVER EVER EVER agree to bench mark our achievements by, what was his name, can''t think, it''s been that long since anyone mentioned him.Unless of course we are really going to have to settle for third best from now on. Then that period will look reasonable.(Now time for me to lay down in a dark room and sob)[li]

[/quote]

The last i heard West Brom had zero debt, but i must admit i haven`t got a clue how they have managed this with a pretty modern stadium. 

They have also done very well from appreciating- unlike us- that top young talent doesn`t come cheap but that paying the going rate can reap huge rewards in terms of promotions, cup-runs, big gates and, when necessary, cashing in on selling players but injecting the proceeds straight back into the team to keep the club moving forward.

[/quote]

Your last sentence sums up in a nutshell why we are where we are, if we had invested a higher proportion of the proceeds from player sales into replacements there is no way on this earth we''d have been in League 1 even allowing for the hideous managers we''ve had. A large part of the blame for that has to go to the wicked cook, if she couldn''t afford to run it as a football club rather than a catering business she should have sold up years ago when she''d have found it easier to find a buyer.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

When did you hear that Mr Carrow?

I reckon West Brom fans see themselves at about 4 on the shitometer although they probably gave ''em a foive before the defeat at the weekend. Us football fans are notoriously fickle.

 

[/quote]

Admittedly not the most reliable source- D.Smith a couple of seasons ago "West Brom have come down with no debt".

Footy fans are fickle.  Yep, that`s the unchangeable reality.  I wouldn`t see fans of a club with 25k gates who`ve spent most of their recent history in the top league, being quite upset at the fact that they are at their lowest ebb for 40 years, in a "dire" financial situation within a few years of receiving tens of millions of pounds tv and transfer cash as being fickle though......

[/quote]

No, neither would I Mr Carrow. Where are feel the fans of that club are fickle is in the way they change their target for blame over and over as the previous scapegoat goes and things get worse. And where I think those fans are fickle is in how they continually change their focus of clubs we should be emulating. And where I think they''re fickle is in refusing to look at the bigger picture when they''ve got their teeth into the latest target.

In the opening post I asked why all the clubs comparable to us from the 80''s and early 90''s had been unable to live up to their glorious benchmarking past. I acknowledged mistakes from our club and throughout the thread from other clubs. It was never a thread to defend Smith & Jones from mistakes they have made, it was a thread to point out how ridiculous it is to measure their performances against the preceding 13 years.

As West Brom are now the Golden Boys and you will notice they are in my list of clubs who had top 6 finishes I will rephrase the question.

Why do you think it is West Brom can''t get close to their glorious benchmarking days?

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Because football- particularly at the top- has changed nutty, i`ve never disagreed with you on that.  And i do tend to think "fickle" when i hear fans of W.Brom, Hull, Sheff.Utd etc whining that they should be doing better, but the truth is all clubs have them- it`s a fact of life. 

I actually used to be Mr.Positive on here before the decline set in and i distinctly remember rowing with some well-known posters who moaned after a couple of home draws in the promotion season.  I "turned" when i couldn`t believe the lack of backing for yer`man (the real reason why he went) despite parachute payments and flogging off £10m worth of players in the first season back down.  If ever there was a statement of intent, that was it.....[:S]  And yes i did point out what i felt was going wrong (that "obsession" again....) and unfortunately have been proved 100% right.

The changes in football certainly haven`t helped us, but they`ve had a small part to play in our decline.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Thank you Mr Carrow. I rather suspect it''s more than a small part because none of the other sides have managed to repeat those glorious benchmarking days either. But this is what my post was about despite it being hi-jacked by the usual agendas.

There''s no doubt, especially at this time, that our club is performing worse than West Brom and the reasons for that must be largely to do with (although not all) mistakes made at our club. If we could now pinpoint how the clubs who get relegated from the Premier League in the main fail so badly then it may help us find out how the Prestons, Burnleys and Hulls of this world fare so well. As T would point out, these clubs may well have wealthy benefactors, but that''s too simplistic for me. Many of the so called bigger clubs have had wealthy benefactors too but haven''t had the same success. In fact mandaric spent his first full season at leicester getting them relegated. I think the disease is caught in the Premier League as hinted by The Butler and I think Ken Borwns excellent post bears further inspection.

I do remember you being more positive but I also remember you and I singing off the same hymn sheet re Worthy and that fateful Lee Croft summer. I believe there was only a few of us at the time who could see how we were going to struggle because Worthy wasn''t backed. In the end ''yer man'' produced a rabbit out of the hat with Dublin even though he was crucified for that too. Worthy''s thanks was to hear Worthy Out ring around Carrow Road and to have his song replaced by the words "Delia''s Barmy Army". As those around me in the Lower barclay will testify i carried on with the Worthy chant so I guess I could claim to have been 100% right too. But I''m not quite as condescending as you so I''ll just take 98% and leave 2% to doubt[;)]

But we''ve been over this ground so many times and I started this thread to maybe look at the bigger picture. But even so I think it could throw up some interesting pointers for our club. Not excuses for failure but maybe reasons we could move forward again.

 

[blahblahblah 2]

Teams relegated since 2005...2009 - Newcastle, Middlesborough, WBA2008 - Reading, Birmingham, Derby2007 - Sheff Utd, Charlton, Watford2006 - Birmingham, WBA, Sunderland2005 - Palace, Norwich, Southampton.Of the teams relegated from the prem since we left, and in order of success :Birmingham are the only team that are currently in the Premiership.Watford got back into the prem, but bounced back out again, as did West Brom.Newcastle, Middlesborough and WBA will probably provide 2 of the promotion winning teams from the Championship this season.  But in all likelihood, the wheels will fall off the team that fails, as the money gap between levels just isn''t sustainable, you can''t keep Prem players in the Championship.  If you fail to re-promote, you turn into 1 of these 3 teams...Reading, Sheff Utd and Palace have made the play-offs since dropping out, but failed to re-promote.  Sheff Utd and Palace finished low / mid-table last season, Reading look to be low / mid-table this season.Derby have been no better than mid-table since their relegations.Charlton, Southampton, Norwich are currently in league 1.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

I''d be interested to know what happens to clubs who don''t make it back within the two years of parachute payments Blah.

Is this last chance saloon for Reading and Derby?

Sheffield Utd I believe got the equivalent of at least an extra year didn''t they? So you could maybe add them to the list.

 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

It''s not about comparisons with ''the previous 13 glorious benchmarking years'' - as nigel nutty puts it in furtherance of one of his two lifetime agendas.

It''s about taking us back to where we were around 50 years ago i.e. colossal failure.

What are nigel nutty''s two agendas you ask?

1.  Defending Smith and Jones.

2.  Defending Nigel Worthington

Now you may be better armed to understand the previous 17 pages or so of this post.

A relatively simple issue falsely made complex by fuzzy thinking and the pursuit of those two over-riding agendas.

Success involves being able to see the wood for the trees.

OTBC

 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

It''s not about comparisons with ''the previous 13 glorious benchmarking years'' - as nigel nutty puts it in furtherance of one of his two lifetime agendas.

It''s about taking us back to where we were around 50 years ago i.e. colossal failure.

What are nigel nutty''s two agendas you ask?

1.  Defending Smith and Jones.

2.  Defending Nigel Worthington

Now you may be better armed to understand the previous 17 pages or so of this post.

A relatively simple issue falsely made complex by fuzzy thinking and the pursuit of those two over-riding agendas.

Success involves being able to see the wood for the trees.

OTBC

[/quote]

Really?

Or is this post all about hanging on to the last strands of your benchmarking credibility?

It''s really difficult to defend Smith & Jones and Nigel Worthington at the same time. Especially when discussing the summer of 2006.

Just as the thread begins to look deeper into wider issues you come along and narrow it back into the usual point scoring.

What''s your agenda?

(Or can''t you keep up [:O] )

 

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I''d be interested to know what happens to clubs who don''t make it back within the two years of parachute payments Blah.

Is this last chance saloon for Reading and Derby?

Sheffield Utd I believe got the equivalent of at least an extra year didn''t they? So you could maybe add them to the list.

[/quote]The clubs who didn''t make it back within 2 years are...Charlton, Watford, Palace, Norwich, Southampton.3 out of 5 in league 1.

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

It''s not about comparisons with ''the previous 13 glorious benchmarking years'' - as nigel nutty puts it in furtherance of one of his two lifetime agendas.

It''s about taking us back to where we were around 50 years ago i.e. colossal failure.

What are nigel nutty''s two agendas you ask?

1.  Defending Smith and Jones.

2.  Defending Nigel Worthington

Now you may be better armed to understand the previous 17 pages or so of this post.

A relatively simple issue falsely made complex by fuzzy thinking and the pursuit of those two over-riding agendas.

Success involves being able to see the wood for the trees.

OTBC

[/quote]

Really?

[/quote]

Really.

OTBC

 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

It''s not about comparisons with ''the previous 13 glorious benchmarking years'' - as nigel nutty puts it in furtherance of one of his two lifetime agendas.

It''s about taking us back to where we were around 50 years ago i.e. colossal failure.

What are nigel nutty''s two agendas you ask?

1.  Defending Smith and Jones.

2.  Defending Nigel Worthington

Now you may be better armed to understand the previous 17 pages or so of this post.

A relatively simple issue falsely made complex by fuzzy thinking and the pursuit of those two over-riding agendas.

Success involves being able to see the wood for the trees.

OTBC

[/quote]

Or is this post really all about hanging on to the last strands of your benchmarking credibility?

It''s really difficult to defend Smith & Jones and Nigel Worthington at the same time. Especially when discussing the summer of 2006.

Just as the thread begins to look deeper into wider issues you come along and narrow it back into the usual point scoring.

What''s your agenda?

(Or is it really because you can''t keep up [:O] )

[/quote]

Really.

OTBC

 

[/quote]

See what I did there[:^)]

 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

It''s not about comparisons with ''the previous 13 glorious benchmarking years'' - as nigel nutty puts it in furtherance of one of his two lifetime agendas.

It''s about taking us back to where we were around 50 years ago i.e. colossal failure.

What are nigel nutty''s two agendas you ask?

1.  Defending Smith and Jones.

2.  Defending Nigel Worthington

Now you may be better armed to understand the previous 17 pages or so of this post.

A relatively simple issue falsely made complex by fuzzy thinking and the pursuit of those two over-riding agendas.

Success involves being able to see the wood for the trees.

OTBC

[/quote]

Really?

Or is this post really my lack of  benchmarking credibility?

It''s not really difficult to defend Smith & Jones and Nigel Worthington at the same time. Especially when discussing the last 13 years.

Just as the thread begins to look deeper into wider issues and becomes more obtuse and irrelevant you come along and narrow it back into reality

What''s your agenda? KISS apparently. Good advice, American style.

[/quote]

Really.

OTBC

[/quote]

See what I did there[:^)]

[/quote]

No.

OTBC