1996 - ?.. Is it all down to the Wicked Cook?

[Arthur Whittle 0]

[quote user="gazzathegreat"]Nutty, you make me laugh, you missed nothing, the reserve game was dire and the only entertainment some teens trying to sound as if they had been in the Barclay for years.[/quote]

Im glad I wasnt the only one irritated to hell by that feeble singing.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]If you haven''t got the answer, laugh the question off ?  I thought better of most of you guys, except Mello who is obviously a bored journo playing to the gallery for comic effect.[/quote]

I''m boared - due to the likes of you....

 

[/quote]A boared person is a boaring person, my mother always used to say.  Be creative - think of an answer.  I know you have it in you.

[yellow hammer 0]

Nutty, I don''t think there is any great mystery why we are where we are and other similar clubs are down there with us; while other "lesser" clubs seem to thrive.

Firstly all clubs face the same rules. So if Bosman rulings affect our playing squad so they affect all other clubs. Maybe not equally but I''ll come to that point in a minute.

Secondly whatever rules are in place and whatever the changing circumstances are in football, the fact that three go down and three go up is a constant.

So if the money, for example, was to dry up in football as a whole there would still be 3 teams promoted and 3 relegated.

Which brings me to answer your questions. Simply clubs do better because over the long term they are better managed. Other clubs do worse because they are less well managed.

One way that a club is well-managed is it''s ability to react to change in a positive way. So if there is a new rule come in to force, such as academy youngsters having to live within a radius of the club, then a well-managed club, instead of bleating aboout the unfairness of the rule, will seek to find a solution.

What puts us where we are in the long term is bad management at the top of the club. There''s your answer.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Gazza - I haven’t sorted another PUPs meet yet. I know it’s yet another glorious late summers day today but I have been wondering whether to have a PUPs Christmas Party. Ray and I were going to suggest it last year but then he became too ill to see it through. What do you think?

 

I don’t think I’m bogged down with Bosman or wider issues, I think that you and most of the others who are replying are bogged down with Smith and Jones. Here’s three paragraphs from my earlier post : -

 

But while I had a little look I noticed something else which I commented on in the OP. In the 80''s and early 90''s (pre Bosman or pre Smith whichever floats your boat) 25 different clubs finished in the top six of the top tier. I''ll list them: Liverpool(15) Man.Utd(12) Arsenal(11) Forest(6) Spurs(6) Everton(5) Villa(4) Leeds(4) Blackburn(3) Chelsea(3) Ipswich(3) Norwich(3) QPR(3) Southampton(3) Man.City(2) Newcastle(2) Sheffield Wed(2) Wimbledon(2) Derby(1) Palace(1) Swansea(1) Watford (1) West Brom(1) West Ham (1).
 
Of that list I would say that Forest, Leeds, Ipswich, QPR, Southampton, Sheffield Wednesday, Palace, West Brom and Derby are our contemporaries. Since being relegated from the Premier League these 9 clubs have managed to return for 13 seasons between them. They have spent a combined total of 74 seasons in the 2nd tier and have spent a combined total of 12 in the 3rd. This mirrors pretty much exactly what we have done. Now these clubs haven''t been owned by Smith&Jones so I think it fair to look for other reasons for their failure even if we blame Smith&Jones for ours.
 
Gazza, in my book it''s too easy to find a scapegoat and then fit all the blame around their actions. This was done to death with Worthy. At least humour me for a while and help me find out why these contemporaries of ours from those glorious benchmarking years seem to have found exactly the same pitfalls as us.
 
Now The Butler seems confused as to what my question was so let me simplify it. The first paragraph above in italics are the 24 clubs who got top 6 finishes in the 16 seasons between 1980 and 1996. The figures in brackets are the amount of top 6 finishes they have had. The significance of that period is obvious from the many benchmarking posts on this message board over the years. It was the time when our club consistently  held it’s own in the top tier of English Football. In the second paragraph I say my opinion is that the 9 clubs listed are our contemporaries. Clubs that I feel are of similar size and potential who also held their own in the top tier of English football. In the third paragraph I ask why these other clubs seem to have found the same pitfalls as us.

 

So how about an answer from The Butler or The Major on these points. Or are you both still confused. It could still be me and my uneducated confused style of writing or it could be you with your blinkered style of reading. But I’m a good humoured patient man so we won’t fall out while we wait. Yellow Hammers answer is interesting as always but in the end he has an agenda to include the owners of our club. This really is where we were with Worthy and a case of having minds already closed and whatever else has helped to cause our demise the buck stops with the owners. Did things improve when fans were that blinkered over Worthy? Be careful lightning doesn''t strike twice [li][li]

 

This question seems to have turned the thread into the Mad Hatters Tea Party. That won’t bother me because I enjoy trading insults with those who say what they mean because I mean what I say.

We got a good answer from Blah
Easily the best by far
But if you answer with moans
About Smith and Jones
Then Dicky shall get the cigar.

“Nottingham Forest twice won the European Cup but now they can‘t compete with little clubs like Burnley, Hull, Stoke and Wigan! And what''s more it''s all down to the wicked cook and her cohorts".

 

 

 

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Nutty, your argument is so preposterous it`s hardly worth replying to.  "The same pitfalls as us" indeed..... of the clubs you list all bar two are in a higher league than us and from what i know of them they haven`t recently described their financial postions as "dire" as we have. 

We all know that other clubs have fallen from grace as well as ourselves, many for very similar reasons such as debt for infrastructure sending clubs into administration.  How many of the regimes who were responsible for those clubs declines are still in place?  And why on earth should ours be?

Right, got better things to do on a sunny day....

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Nutty, your argument is so preposterous it`s hardly worth replying to.  "The same pitfalls as us" indeed..... of the clubs you list all bar two are in a higher league than us and from what i know of them they haven`t recently described their financial postions as "dire" as we have. 

We all know that other clubs have fallen from grace as well as ourselves, many for very similar reasons such as debt for infrastructure sending clubs into administration.  How many of the regimes who were responsible for those clubs declines are still in place?  And why on earth should ours be?

Right, got better things to do on a sunny day....

[/quote]

Thank you Mr.C. Saves me from the same same same answer.

Nutty talks of our agenda, whatever that is.

You must never point out that in 13 years the majority shareholders have in essence cocked up all the major and most of the minor decisions, but as they are FANS and attend most matches we should not question them just be gratefull for 3rd division football and excellent dining facilities!

Good intentions the road to Hell is paved with them.

They are not alone , Saints fans had the same problem with Lowe, hated by the support and look where not getting him out cost them.

[ron obvious 1,502]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

“Nottingham Forest twice won the European Cup but now they can‘t compete with little clubs like Burnley, Hull, Stoke and Wigan! And what''s more it''s all down to the wicked cook and her cohorts".

 

 

 

 

[/quote]Life (don''t talk to me about life ....) is an incredibly complex process. To survive you have to know what happens next - mankind''s ability to model the future is the reason for his success. Now, because of the googolplex of factors influencing the course of future events, forming useful predictive models can be bloody hard work, so most people want a nice, simple solution.It''s the parents It''s the governmentIt''s the immigrantsor:It''s the Wicked CookIt''s DocIt''s CuroObviously there is merit in simplifying problems; in a lot of cases there is an overriding determining factor &, if you didn''t simplify most of life''s problems, you''d never get anything done.One of the fascinations of football is the way a basically simple game with simple rules can become so complicated. I''ve seen Arsenal play so well it''s like watching high speed 3-dimensional chess. I''ve even seen Norwich play something similar (though never for very long!)Nutty, you''ve spent a lot of time & effort trying to disentagle the reasons why NCFC is where it is today, & for this I applaud you. A long time ago I came to (I think) the same conclusion as you, i.e. it''s lots of different things, not an evil conspiracy to bring the club down.If there is one overriding factor determining the success or failure of a particular club at a particular time, then it was inferred in your final paragraph; IT''S THE MANAGER (STUPID)!And before anyone asks who appoints the manager, how many managers are consistently successful? How often does a Brian Clough come along?Mike Walker anyone?

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="The Butler"]

In 13 years the majority shareholders have in essence cocked up all the major and most of the minor decisions.

[/quote]Butler, ALL the major decisions? ALL of them? Really? Rearranging the finances so the club was not likely to fall victim to the short-term pressures that played a major part (and we won''t go into the rights and wrongs of that but...) in Chase leaving. That was a mistake?Quietly dropping Chase''s eccentric idea of  floating the company on the stock market a mistake?Creating a ticketing and marketing policy that has vastly increased in actual and percentage terms the number of spectators at Carrow Road compared with the Chase era. That was a mistake?We can all argue about managers (and, boy, have Smith and Jones make some preposterously bad decisions. Gunn TWICE, anyone?) but choosing Rioch a mistake? Worthington a mistake? Roeder, to get us out of what looked like terminal trouble, a mistake?Insisting that any new owner is in it for the long term a mistake?Freshening up the board a mistake?Bowkett a mistake?McNally a mistake?Of course I could draw up an equally long list of their howlers. But the point Nutty and others have tried to make it that is not all black and white. It simply isn''t true that ALL their major decisions have been mistakes.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="The Butler"]

In 13 years the majority shareholders have in essence cocked up all the major and most of the minor decisions.

[/quote]

Butler, ALL the major decisions? ALL of them? Really?

Rearranging the finances so the club was not likely to fall victim to the short-term pressures that played a major part (and we won''t go into the rights and wrongs of that but...) in Chase leaving. That was a mistake?

Quietly dropping Chase''s eccentric idea of  floating the company on the stock market a mistake?

Creating a ticketing and marketing policy that has vastly increased in actual and percentage terms the number of spectators at Carrow Road compared with the Chase era. That was a mistake?

We can all argue about managers (and, boy, have Smith and Jones make some preposterously bad decisions. Gunn TWICE, anyone?) but choosing Rioch a mistake? Worthington a mistake? Roeder, to get us out of what looked like terminal trouble, a mistake?

Insisting that any new owner is in it for the long term a mistake?

Freshening up the board a mistake?

Bowkett a mistake?

McNally a mistake?

Of course I could draw up an equally long list of their howlers. But the point Nutty and others have tried to make it that is not all black and white. It simply isn''t true that ALL their major decisions have been mistakes.[/quote]

Ok PC not every one, I inadvertantly forgot the pedantic nit picking of ever word that goes on regardless of what has been previously stated. Nearly all ok. 

I have already said further up this thread that I applaud the bringing in of McNally and Bowkett but this is years  and millions over due to have happened.

Please don''t go for Gunn,.Roeder even Worthington who was appointed only when he put them under pressure and then was not removed soon enough.

Not all is black or white in fact most of us live our lives in "the grey" . The odds of them getting some thing right over time is fairly high. If you throw enough darts at a board one at some time will hit the bull. Talking of which........

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="The Butler"]

Ok PC not every one, I inadvertantly forgot the pedantic nit picking of ever word that goes on regardless of what has been previously stated. Nearly all ok. 

Not all is black or white in fact most of us live our lives in "the grey" . The odds of them getting some thing right over time is fairly high. If you throw enough darts at a board one at some time will hit the bull. Talking of which........

[/quote]Butler, I would argue that what I was doing was not pedantic nit-picking (though I can always turn my hand to that!) but pointing out, as you indeed say, that the world is a grey (and complicated) place rather than black and white. Let''s leave it there.

[gazzathegreat 0]

Nutty, please organise a Xmas do! Warning now: many of us are getting booked up well in advance, do dive in and arrange a date soon.

I have to agree with Yellow Hammer who explained it well. It''s not about agendas Nutty, it''s about looking at what has happened. Perhaps with the benefit of hindsight we can all point to things that should have been done differently, but over the Delia years we have been in decline, bar a couple of good seasons or so. This (including all external factors or things which happened outside NCFC control) is down to the management (good or bad) of our club. They are at the top and bear responsibility as such. That''s not an agenda, it''s the way things work.

For the record, Delia and Michael have many good points, passionate fans and all the rest, but their overall record of decision making (and the consequences of such) is poor. The woman taught me to cook and I have many admirers of my cooking as a result (ask City Angel about my pizzas!), so you could say I was disappointed she hasn''t done better. But as fans (all of us) we all have a right to voice opinions. Some of them are not yours. You have to accept it.

I know you personally, as I do more than a few other contributors to this thread. As someone further up the post pointed out, this messageboard is much maligned (secret envy probably) but threads like this persuade me to stay and contribute. I am sure I speak for many other posters who wish for far more debate and far less hysterical slagging off of players and NCFC staff without fair reason or debate. So thank you for starting off a cracking debate which has had many well reasoned points made even if we don''t particularly agree with them all as individuals.

[blahblahblah 2]

Yellow Hammer and Gazza are basically right, as is Nutty I feel.  As I and other have pointed out in this thread - "The Game" has changed beyond recognition, and will continue to over the coming years.  The teams nutty has mentioned have failed to adapt as much as we have.  D & M have, in their way, taken responsibility for previous failures, and have appointed half a new board, who seem to be offering a more challenging, "devils advocate" approach that was sorely missing before.  They really shouldn''t have appointed Gunn before the new board though - with that action they showed themselves in a very poor light.All any of us can do now is hope that they have brought in the right people, and get behind those people in getting us back to where we should be, not where we find ourselves.

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

We live in a constantly changing environment. The world never stands still.

And success in this world usually comes from getting most of the big decisions right.

Conversely failure usually results from getting most of the big decisions wrong.

Although, of course, luck comes into it occasionally (bad and good) - and in the particular instant can overide everything.

Now we know that big decisions are made at the top - and the buck stops there.

Fact The performance trend line of City since 1996 is steadily and inexorably downwards.

I suggest we pray for good luck.

OTBC

 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

What is nutty''s agenda?

OTBC

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

What is nutty''s agenda?

OTBC

[/quote]To promote debate amongst fellow fans I suspect.  What''s yours ?

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

What is nutty''s agenda?

OTBC

[/quote]

To promote debate amongst fellow fans I suspect.  What''s yours ?
[/quote]

Large brandy thanks Blah[;)]

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

What is nutty''s agenda?

OTBC

[/quote]

To promote debate amongst fellow fans I suspect.  What''s yours ?
[/quote]

The truth.

OTBC

[Mello Yello 2,291]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]If you haven''t got the answer, laugh the question off ?  I thought better of most of you guys, except Mello who is obviously a bored journo playing to the gallery for comic effect.
[/quote]

I''m boared - due to the likes of you....

 

[/quote]

A boared person is a boaring person, my mother always used to say.  Be creative - think of an answer.  I know you have it in you.
[/quote]

no

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

What is nutty''s agenda?

OTBC

[/quote]To promote debate amongst fellow fans I suspect.  What''s yours ?[/quote]

The truth.

OTBC

[/quote]Just hold on a second while I wipe the coffee off my monitor...

[Mello Yello 2,291]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

What is nutty''s agenda?

OTBC

[/quote]

To promote debate amongst fellow fans I suspect.  What''s yours ?
[/quote]

The truth.

OTBC

[/quote]

Just hold on a second while I wipe the coffee off my monitor...
[/quote]

I''ve heard it called many things....But, it''s the first time I''ve heard it called ''coffee''...

Anyway, why are you covering your lizard with ''coffee?''

[blahblahblah 2]

Thankfully Mello, I have absolutely no idea what you are on about.  Now just wait there and I''ll order the nice whit coat that does up at the back, and 32 sheets of rubber wallpaper.

[Mello Yello 2,291]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]Thankfully Mello, I have absolutely no idea what you are on about.  Now just wait there and I''ll order the nice whit coat that does up at the back, and 32 sheets of rubber wallpaper.
[/quote]

Whit''s a whit coat?

[First Jedi 0]

"The truth."

You can''t handle the truth!

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]Whit''s a whit coat?[/quote]It is my many-coloured coat, made from the combined works of Oscar Wilde, Stephen Fry and Groucho Marx.  And even then it''s spelt incorrectly.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]Whit''s a whit coat?[/quote]

It is my many-coloured coat, made from the combined works of Oscar Wilde, Stephen Fry and Groucho Marx.  And even then it''s spelt incorrectly.
[/quote]

I thought it was the one you wore on one bank holiday a year!

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="First Jedi"]"The truth." You can''t handle the truth![/quote]

Coming from some alternative universe in Toyland what would you know?

OTBC

 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

What is nutty''s agenda?

OTBC

[/quote]

To promote debate amongst fellow fans I suspect.  What''s yours ?
[/quote]

The truth.

OTBC

[/quote]

Just hold on a second while I wipe the coffee off my monitor...
[/quote]

Asda or Spar?

You finished yet?

OTBC

 

[Arthur Whittle 0]

[quote user="yellow hammer"]Nutty, I don''t think there is any great mystery why we are where we are and other similar clubs are down there with us; while other "lesser" clubs seem to thrive.

Firstly all clubs face the same rules. So if Bosman rulings affect our playing squad so they affect all other clubs. Maybe not equally but I''ll come to that point in a minute.

Secondly whatever rules are in place and whatever the changing circumstances are in football, the fact that three go down and three go up is a constant.

So if the money, for example, was to dry up in football as a whole there would still be 3 teams promoted and 3 relegated.

Which brings me to answer your questions. Simply clubs do better because over the long term they are better managed. Other clubs do worse because they are less well managed.

One way that a club is well-managed is it''s ability to react to change in a positive way. So if there is a new rule come in to force, such as academy youngsters having to live within a radius of the club, then a well-managed club, instead of bleating aboout the unfairness of the rule, will seek to find a solution.

What puts us where we are in the long term is bad management at the top of the club. There''s your answer.[/quote]

Nutty, please can I hear your response to this post that sums things up, every club is in the same boat but others deal with it while others moan about it, which you have either missed or chosen not to reply to. Cheers.

[Arthur Whittle 0]

Nutty, dont know what happened to the quote???

Please let us know what you think of Yellow Hammers superb summary on page 7 of this thread, where he basically explains that the rules are set out the same for every club, some clubs manage a change in situation well eg Stoke, others manage it badly eg Norwich. Cheers.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

I will Arthur, but later when I have time. I just needed to post on the free bet. There''s still time to leave a selection ya know[;)]