1996 - ?.. Is it all down to the Wicked Cook?

[Arthur Whittle 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I will Arthur, but later when I have time. I just needed to post on the free bet. There''s still time to leave a selection ya know[;)]

 

[/quote]

Ok mate, just wondering about your thoughts.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Nutty, your argument is so preposterous it`s hardly worth replying to.  "The same pitfalls as us" indeed..... of the clubs you list all bar two are in a higher league than us and from what i know of them they haven`t recently described their financial postions as "dire" as we have. 

We all know that other clubs have fallen from grace as well as ourselves, many for very similar reasons such as debt for infrastructure sending clubs into administration.  How many of the regimes who were responsible for those clubs declines are still in place?  And why on earth should ours be?

Right, got better things to do on a sunny day....

[/quote]

Thank you Mr.C. Saves me from the same same same answer.

[/quote]

Well while you two pat each other on the back for thinking my argument is so preposterous it''s hardly worth replying to take a step back and consider how yours is down right ridiculous. How can the failure of all 9 clubs that were contemporaries of ours in the 80''s and early 90''s be down to Smith & Jones? They would be the ultimate scapegoat as you make them carry the sins of all these 9 clubs out into the wilderness.

 

Mr Carrow kindly points out that all bar two of the nine clubs on the list are in a higher league than us and goes on to talk about their finances. The Butler again pats him on the back and gives us another paragraph of what  the majority shareholders have cocked up before mentioning Rupert Lowe and Southampton. But Rupert Lowe can''t really be the answer either.

 

Now Mr Carrow, those 9 clubs may well be above us right now but they have between them, since their first relegation from the Premier league, spent 13 seasons back in the Premier, 74 seasons in the second tier and 12 seasons in the third. Since our first relegation from the Premier League we have spent 1 season back there, 13 seasons in the second tier and 1 season in the third. Those two sets of figures look similar to me. The fact that those "hobbyhorse clubs" Burnley, Hull, Stoke and Wigan are comfortably out-performing all those listed 9 clubs as well as us is also surely more than coincidence.

 

So Arthur.. to answer yellow hammer''s excellent post that I maybe unfairly glossed over this morning.. I agree that all clubs face the same rules but I still feel he''s falling into the same trap as those who think I''m preposterous. Yellow hammer finishes his post saying "What puts us where we are in the long term is bad management at the top of the club. There''s your answer." Now I am more inclined to believe that the rules all clubs face may be more of a reason for the reason why these contemporaries of ours from those glorious benchmarking years seem to have found exactly the same pitfalls as us.

 

I don''t know the answer. I don''t know what connects the collective failure of these clubs. Clubs like Leicester and Coventry can be added to the list because although they weren''t ever in the top six during those 16 seasons they are probably more our contemporaries than Wimbledon and Swansea. It could be to do with relegation from the Premiership despite the parachute payments. It could be to do with Bosman or the travelling time restrictions that I highlighted earlier. Or maybe it could be something new entirely. I don''t think it''s Smith & Jones though.

[Camuldonum 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Nutty, your argument is so preposterous it`s hardly worth replying to.  "The same pitfalls as us" indeed..... of the clubs you list all bar two are in a higher league than us and from what i know of them they haven`t recently described their financial postions as "dire" as we have. 

We all know that other clubs have fallen from grace as well as ourselves, many for very similar reasons such as debt for infrastructure sending clubs into administration.  How many of the regimes who were responsible for those clubs declines are still in place?  And why on earth should ours be?

Right, got better things to do on a sunny day....

[/quote]

Thank you Mr.C. Saves me from the same same same answer.

[/quote]

Well while you two pat each other on the back for thinking my argument is so preposterous it''s hardly worth replying to take a step back and consider how yours is down right ridiculous. How can the failure of all 9 clubs that were contemporaries of ours in the 80''s and early 90''s be down to Smith & Jones? They would be the ultimate scapegoat as you make them carry the sins of all these 9 clubs out into the wilderness.

 

Mr Carrow kindly points out that all bar two of the nine clubs on the list are in a higher league than us and goes on to talk about their finances. The Butler again pats him on the back and gives us another paragraph of what  the majority shareholders have cocked up before mentioning Rupert Lowe and Southampton. But Rupert Lowe can''t really be the answer either.

 

Now Mr Carrow, those 9 clubs may well be above us right now but they have between them, since their first relegation from the Premier league, spent 13 seasons back in the Premier, 74 seasons in the second tier and 12 seasons in the third. Since our first relegation from the Premier League we have spent 1 season back there, 13 seasons in the second tier and 1 season in the third. Those two sets of figures look similar to me. The fact that those "hobbyhorse clubs" Burnley, Hull, Stoke and Wigan are comfortably out-performing all those listed 9 clubs as well as us is also surely more than coincidence.

 

So Arthur.. to answer yellow hammer''s excellent post that I maybe unfairly glossed over this morning.. I agree that all clubs face the same rules but I still feel he''s falling into the same trap as those who think I''m preposterous. Yellow hammer finishes his post saying "What puts us where we are in the long term is bad management at the top of the club. There''s your answer." Now I am more inclined to believe that the rules all clubs face may be more of a reason for the reason why these contemporaries of ours from those glorious benchmarking years seem to have found exactly the same pitfalls as us.

 

I don''t know the answer. I don''t know what connects the collective failure of these clubs. Clubs like Leicester and Coventry can be added to the list because although they weren''t ever in the top six during those 16 seasons they are probably more our contemporaries than Wimbledon and Swansea. It could be to do with relegation from the Premiership despite the parachute payments. It could be to do with Bosman or the travelling time restrictions that I highlighted earlier. Or maybe it could be something new entirely. I don''t think it''s Smith & Jones though.

[/quote]

FFS!  We''ve spent half the week waiting for a Wicked Cook story and nothing has turned up.

Which is not to mention umpteen messages just linking her with the 10-10 Energy Saving "initiative".[:@]

Or someone in South Carolina blaming Delia''s temperature for her cake caving in a bit.

"Now, about those "hiccups." The cake centers caved in a bit. I think this was due to the oven temperature. According to my Delia Smith cookbook, gas mark 4 equals 350 degrees, but I think next time I will set the oven to 400 degrees. The batter for this sponge is rather dense and I think a higher oven temperature might work better.

Or ... could it have been because I used 7" tins instead of 8" tins?

Also, next time I''m going to cream the butter before adding it into the bowl. Just a personal preference.

Despite the above, the cake''s consistency is perfect, it looks great and tastes even better!  I love it!"

Right, so she can''t even recipe a cake either.

If all else fails go on the recipes.  We are to Wicked Cook discoverers what Max Clifford currently is to Tongan maids. (News of the World lined up for that one, Mail on Sunday for you lot if you can prove The Wicked Cook).

Very, very disappointed this end. 

"I thought we started brightly and we had the best of the opening 20 minutes but then we let them back in and we fell for their tactics and what started as open play led to both sides lumping the ball over midfield. Neither side really got going after that and neither side put away their chances.  It must have been boring for the fans but, you know, 0-0 is still a point.  We''ve got lots of things to work on next week and rest assured we will be working on them.  They''ll be happy they didn''t concede and we are too.  There are going to be games like this.  Can''t fault them for effort..................."

 

[:|][;)]

 

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Nutty, your argument is so preposterous it`s hardly worth replying to.  "The same pitfalls as us" indeed..... of the clubs you list all bar two are in a higher league than us and from what i know of them they haven`t recently described their financial postions as "dire" as we have. 

We all know that other clubs have fallen from grace as well as ourselves, many for very similar reasons such as debt for infrastructure sending clubs into administration.  How many of the regimes who were responsible for those clubs declines are still in place?  And why on earth should ours be?

Right, got better things to do on a sunny day....

[/quote]

Thank you Mr.C. Saves me from the same same same answer.

[/quote]

Well while you two pat each other on the back for thinking my argument is so preposterous it''s hardly worth replying to take a step back and consider how yours is down right ridiculous. How can the failure of all 9 clubs that were contemporaries of ours in the 80''s and early 90''s be down to Smith & Jones? They would be the ultimate scapegoat as you make them carry the sins of all these 9 clubs out into the wilderness.

 

Mr Carrow kindly points out that all bar two of the nine clubs on the list are in a higher league than us and goes on to talk about their finances. The Butler again pats him on the back and gives us another paragraph of what  the majority shareholders have cocked up before mentioning Rupert Lowe and Southampton. But Rupert Lowe can''t really be the answer either.

 

Now Mr Carrow, those 9 clubs may well be above us right now but they have between them, since their first relegation from the Premier league, spent 13 seasons back in the Premier, 74 seasons in the second tier and 12 seasons in the third. Since our first relegation from the Premier League we have spent 1 season back there, 13 seasons in the second tier and 1 season in the third. Those two sets of figures look similar to me. The fact that those "hobbyhorse clubs" Burnley, Hull, Stoke and Wigan are comfortably out-performing all those listed 9 clubs as well as us is also surely more than coincidence.

 

So Arthur.. to answer yellow hammer''s excellent post that I maybe unfairly glossed over this morning.. I agree that all clubs face the same rules but I still feel he''s falling into the same trap as those who think I''m preposterous. Yellow hammer finishes his post saying "What puts us where we are in the long term is bad management at the top of the club. There''s your answer." Now I am more inclined to believe that the rules all clubs face may be more of a reason for the reason why these contemporaries of ours from those glorious benchmarking years seem to have found exactly the same pitfalls as us.

 

I don''t know the answer. I don''t know what connects the collective failure of these clubs. Clubs like Leicester and Coventry can be added to the list because although they weren''t ever in the top six during those 16 seasons they are probably more our contemporaries than Wimbledon and Swansea. It could be to do with relegation from the Premiership despite the parachute payments. It could be to do with Bosman or the travelling time restrictions that I highlighted earlier. Or maybe it could be something new entirely. I don''t think it''s Smith & Jones though.

[/quote]

Good old corkscrew Nutty, more twists than Chubby Checker.

If you don''t like the answers change them or the question. You somehow manage to do both.

No one blames the devious duo for all clubs as no one in their right mind blames everything on bosman and travelling.

Try a new pair of combinations as your Y fronts are restricting the flow of blood to the thinking area.

You may even get Delias new cook book for Christmas for being a good boy![:D]

You have stirred the mix, got the rise and all that awaits is.............

[Mr.Carrow 376]

You really are beyond help nutty.  I swear i have never come across another poster who can so eloquently write so much utter drivel as you.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Preposterous, beyond help but still no answer Mr Carrow. In your case Dicky definitely gets the cigar[Y]

 

[8]Who`s that flyin'' up there?
Is it a bird? Noooooo!
Is it a plane? Noooooooo!
Is it The Butler? YEAAAAAAAHH!

 

The question and the information that made me ask the question has been copied and pasted on my posts on this thread on page after page after page after page after page..... [|-)]

Not twisted or cork screwed or stirred for a rise. But you for some reason, that I can''t comprehend, refuse to even attempt an answer. Preferring instead to use it as a platform to discuss yet again all the mistakes made by the majority shareholders. Is it because the thread title included the words wicked cook[:^)]

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="Camuldonum"]

FFS!  We''ve spent half the week waiting for a Wicked Cook story and nothing has turned up.

 

[/quote]

Cam.. you''ve spent a lot longer than that waiting for the Wicked Cook action[|-)]

Will it ever happen[:^)]

You will need the patience of Job but even then I doubt it will. You see what is posted on here bears no relation to what happens in the real world concerning the Wicked Cook. Chances come to demostrate and force the issue but apart from a small handful of crakpots the chances go begging like they are on Cureton''s player cam.

If Worthy had been afforded the same patience by the fans we may not have fallen quite so far behind Burnley[;)]

 

 

[Camuldonum 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Camuldonum"]

FFS!  We''ve spent half the week waiting for a Wicked Cook story and nothing has turned up.

 

[/quote]

Cam.. you''ve spent a lot longer than that waiting for the Wicked Cook action[|-)]

Will it ever happen[:^)]

You will need the patience of Job but even then I doubt it will. You see what is posted on here bears no relation to what happens in the real world concerning the Wicked Cook. Chances come to demostrate and force the issue but apart from a small handful of crakpots the chances go begging like they are on Cureton''s player cam.

If Worthy had been afforded the same patience by the fans we may not have fallen quite so far behind Burnley[;)]

Patience is absolutely endless this end, dear chap.   I''m just saying that so far there is no Wicked Cook stuff.  Not even a sniff of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

[William Darby 0]

Nutty you could use this as a new avatar

[nutty nigel 7,531]

"The slow b*gger and Mr Carrow discuss how the Stowmarket Two have held Nottingham Forest back from their former glories" [;)]

 

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

"The slow b*gger and Mr Carrow discuss how the Stowmarket Two have held Nottingham Forest back from their former glories" [;)]

 

[/quote]obviously you haven''t taken in my opinion... I''ve tried reading yours but it really is hard going.  Just for your benefit though,  Clough took Forest down because A) he was a full blown alcoholic who''d lost the plot & B) Clough was not the same manager without Peter Taylor.Why you keep using and debate point of Delia has never owned or been involved with X Y or Z,  I can''t get my head around that.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

NN I have not read through all 9 pages of this, so apologies if you have already answered this -

What are your thoughts on the successes of the clubs who have replaced Norwich et al in the top flight, finding success whilst obviously operating under the same constraints?

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

Just had a thought, don''t know if this has been mentioned.  Was the creation of the Premier League itself partly to blame for the downfall of some of the teams mentioned.  If there were still 24 teams in the top flight, would we still be there?  We may never have been relegated.

[gazzathegreat 0]

Nutty

Re your reply to Butler and Mr Carrow. Where do they blame Delia for others’ misfortunes? Mr Carrow asks if the owners of other clubs are still there (after the fall out of administration or relegation). Arthur and Yellow Hammer sucinctly put it as have others, we all play by the same rules - and others have done a lot better, a few worse, though it’s hard to search for clubs who have fallen from grace quite as rapidly as us since 2004/5.

Again, to try and put my thoughts more directly, if all clubs play by the same rules and therefore the same trading and market conditions why are we where we are? Assuming the others all had at least one season of success in the Premiership, therefore the money associated with that, why are we in League One? Although not in admin (yet) it sounds as if we are not far off, the present CE says the situation is “dire”.

We have wasted our money Nutty, gambled on infrastucture against team building, now owe many millions (and all of our bums on seats is paying it off). What happens if we don’t win promotion and the crowds were to drift away? How much longer can Delia and Michael rely on loyal support?

We have to assume D and M have seen the error of their ways by appointing new board members, though why Doncaster remained in his job so long doesn’t (for me anyway) point to clear and decisive thinking at the top.

Okay Nutty, players have failed us, managers have failed us, bad refeering decisions may have cost us a few points, but all in all it’s bad management at board level over a long time and personally I would like to add to that the lack of real searching for alternate owners or investors when we were successful.

[The Butler 0]

I think I have just worked out NN''s thinking.

LIke the modern football who crosses himself as he runs on the pitch so NN uses the holy trinty as a supporter

Muttering Delia,Michael ,Nigel under his breath at every available occassion.

Therfore in his eyes these three dieties ARE omnipotent and therefore responsible for lots or all other football clubs.

Thus his question is one relating to the bolstering of his faith, if we agree that their actions influenced other teams then he can remain blissfully happy in his world.

OK if it makes you happy Nutty I agree.

Now you can selectivly cut and paste that one line from this post to prove whatever you want[:D]

[The Butler 0]

footballer.......edit button please!!

[Mello Yello 2,289]

I gave up with nutless some time ago.....it''s like trying to force a marshmallow into a money-box.

                                                                                                         

 

"HA''WAY THE TOON! C''MON AN'' DUMP IN KEANO''S FACE!"

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Preposterous, beyond help but still no answer Mr Carrow. In your case Dicky definitely gets the cigar[Y]

 

[8]Who`s that flyin'' up there?
Is it a bird? Noooooo!
Is it a plane? Noooooooo!
Is it The Butler? YEAAAAAAAHH!

 

The question and the information that made me ask the question has been copied and pasted on my posts on this thread on page after page after page after page after page..... [|-)]

Not twisted or cork screwed or stirred for a rise. But you for some reason, that I can''t comprehend, refuse to even attempt an answer. Preferring instead to use it as a platform to discuss yet again all the mistakes made by the majority shareholders. Is it because the thread title included the words wicked cook[:^)]

 

 

[/quote]

I`ve answered your question nutty- the clubs you mention are either in a much stronger position than us or have had spells of underachievement which boil down to poor decision-making by club owners/boards, in alot of cases huge problems caused by debt to pay for infrastructure just like ourselves.

Now, can you answer my question as to how many of the regimes which took those clubs into administration or the third division are still in place?

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Mr Carrow especially, but a lot of the others who respond as well, have a totally closed mind and a single agenda. I very much doubt if the answer to the question posed by my post has anything to do with clubs owners, Smith & Jones, Rupert Lowe or Brian Clough. I didn''t pick the clubs at random and neither did I just single out the clubs because they mirrored our failure.

 

My task was to see if Bosman or the travelling time rules had influenced the problems our club have found since the mid 90''s.

 

I listed all the clubs who finished in the top 6 in the 80''s and early 90''s. Not just some of them but all of them. The significance of this period is that it was when we were arguably most successful and is used by posters as a benchmark to highlight our failure since.

 

I then isolated those that I class as our contemporaries from that list.

 

I then listed the record of those clubs since they were relegated from the Premier League and found that on average they had each spent 1.4 seasons back in the Premier League, 8 seasons in the 2nd tier, and 1.3 seasons in the third tier. This shows the same trend as us with our 1 season in the Prem, 13 seasons in the 2nd and 1 season in the 3rd.

 

While I accept that decisions made by Smith and Jones have influenced what has happened to our club, as I wrote in my opening post way back when :-

"Over the last few seasons big mistakes have been made with the football managers and football players brought to the club. The buck stops at the top and the owners should, and I believe have, accept the responsibility for this. But this scapegoating and making ridiculous comparisons with era''s that bear no relevance to the present show a lack of understanding of the state of the present day game in this country."

 

I don''t believe that Delia Smith, Rupert Lowe or Brian Clough can be responsible for why all those clubs from that era have never been able to live up to their glorious benchmarking past. From the opening post all the way through this thread I have never tried to exonerate these people from any of the internal problems their own clubs have faced. I have just said that they can''t possibly be responsible for the underlying reason why none of these clubs can regain their former glory. My agenda was to look at other reasons, I highlighted the Bosman and travelling time rules, to find out what that underlying reason is. But I have been accused of all sorts as posters have tried every which way to twist my question so the answer fits Smith and Jones.

 

But I will not give up. I will throw another one into the mix here. Is it possible that the Premier League is not the same beast as the first tier from those glorious benchmarking years? It''s not part of the Football League anymore. In fact I believe it might as well be in another universe for the similarities of it compared to the old First Division that we constantly benchmark. I believe the Championship is possibly more closely related.

 

Broadslim - I rather suspect that if we find the underlying reasons why us and our contemporaries have been unable to get close to those successes of the past, those same reasons will in turn lead us to the reason why others have managed to out perform us. But I''ll tell you what it''s not - It''s not because the wicked cook owns our club and neither is it because she doesn''t own theirs - despite what others would try and have you believe.[;)]

 

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Preposterous, beyond help but still no answer Mr Carrow. In your case Dicky definitely gets the cigar[Y]

 

[8]Who`s that flyin'' up there?
Is it a bird? Noooooo!
Is it a plane? Noooooooo!
Is it The Butler? YEAAAAAAAHH!

 

The question and the information that made me ask the question has been copied and pasted on my posts on this thread on page after page after page after page after page..... [|-)]

Not twisted or cork screwed or stirred for a rise. But you for some reason, that I can''t comprehend, refuse to even attempt an answer. Preferring instead to use it as a platform to discuss yet again all the mistakes made by the majority shareholders. Is it because the thread title included the words wicked cook[:^)]

 

 

[/quote]

I`ve answered your question nutty- the clubs you mention are either in a much stronger position than us or have had spells of underachievement which boil down to poor decision-making by club owners/boards, in alot of cases huge problems caused by debt to pay for infrastructure just like ourselves.

Now, can you answer my question as to how many of the regimes which took those clubs into administration or the third division are still in place?

[/quote]

All those words and still no answer to my question nutty??

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Because your question only has relevance to what I am trying to find out in your closed and distorted trains of thought. If you want to discuss Smith & Jones, our clubs finance, our debt...... [|-)] then why don''t you return to one of the million threads you already discuss it on. You haven''t answered my question yet and obviously haven''t the desire or the capacity to do so.

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Because your question only has relevance to what I am trying to find out in your closed and distorted trains of thought. If you want to discuss Smith & Jones, our clubs finance, our debt...... [|-)] then why don''t you return to one of the million threads you already discuss it on. You haven''t answered my question yet and obviously haven''t the desire or the capacity to do so.

 

[/quote]

No nutty, i just haven`t answered your question with the one you want to hear so, in your own inimitable style, you ignore every answer you find unpalatable.

The financial meltdowns caused by poor decisions by previous (note that word) regimes at most of the clubs you choose to focus on have had far more impact than Bosman/academy regs etc.  Many more similar and smaller clubs have had to live with the same regs and done much better.  All the clubs you mention have got rid of the regimes under which they underachieved and the vast majority are in a stronger position than us.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

I''m still being patient but it''s hard. I have stated in the opening post that the board are responsible for many of the ills at our club. Your insistance that we talk about financial meltdowns and the consequences will not find the underlying cause of why ALL those clubs that were our contemporaries back then cannot get close to finding their former glories. Something inextricably links all those clubs and has caused them to have so many of the same ills while other clubs can seemingly come from nowhere and consistently out-perform them.

Take the blinkers off[8-|]

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Lol, priceless....

So because you want to ignore the financial meltdowns and consequences of those clubs, they can`t possibly be "the underlying cause why all those clubs cannot get close to finding their former glories".....Well you just keep on believing that.

This is getting more and more like being cornered by the pub "character"....

[nutty nigel 7,531]

It''s very unlikely they are the underlying cause.

It''s very unlikely that all those clubs from back then have all been totally mis-managed to such an extent.

It''s far more likely that there''s another underlying cause.

Otherwise surely you could furnish me with another list of clubs who weren''t mis-managed.

I''d rather be cornered by the pub "character" than have the mother-in-law round every day. At least the pub "character" has an excuse for being boring.............

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Nutty, i`m sure most clubs have been mismanaged in their time which is why unpopular, failing regimes tend to be replaced- which they have been at most of the clubs you mention and should be at ours.

Teams which have not been mismanaged in recent times and are well-run include West Brom, Brum, Hull, Stoke, Burnley, Preston, Cardiff, Sheff.Utd, Blackpool, etc., etc.......

[Mello Yello 2,289]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s very unlikely they are the underlying cause.

It''s very unlikely that all those clubs from back then have all been totally mis-managed to such an extent.

It''s far more likely that there''s another underlying cause.

Otherwise surely you could furnish me with another list of clubs who weren''t mis-managed.

I''d rather be cornered by the pub "character" than have the mother-in-law round every day. At least the pub "character" has an excuse for being boring.............

 

[/quote]

HAH! [:D]  

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Teams which have not been mismanaged in recent times and are well-run include West Brom, Brum, Hull, Stoke, Burnley, Preston, Cardiff, Sheff.Utd, Blackpool, etc., etc.......

[/quote]

Thank you!

Now where were those clubs during the 80''s and early 90''s.

If you would just make a token effort to understand the point I''m trying to make you''d make me a very happy man.

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

I don`t see that you`ve really answered your own question yet nutty, you`ve just stated the changes in football in that time which all clubs have had to deal with.  Many similar and smaller clubs have adapted successfully to those changes, others, including some of our contemporaries from the 80`s and 90`s have been mismanaged and underachieved, generally leading to a change in ownership and direction.  We are still stuck with the mismanagers and underachievers at the top of the club.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Correct. But I don''t know the answer. I''ve made suggestions including those in my opening post and one on a reply this morning. It''s hard work because I keep saying that I don''t have an agenda. I keep saying it''s not a trick. But you and most others make no attempt address the question. I listed all the clubs who finished in the top six during that period. There are no others. The period is the one thats continually used to benchmark our performance now. Many of them have changed owners and continually changed managers and are still being out performed by clubs who were light years away back then.