OT Football Manager game...

[First Jedi 0]

This is not about Norwich City (hence the OT) so please don''t read it if you are easily offended. Apologies for posting here, but then, I never read anything but this board, and I assume that others don''t either.

I''m writing, as a hobby, a football manager game. One annoying problem is that I simply don''t have a name for it. I''d like to get that sorted as the name will be pervasive in the code (via package names etc) and it''s nice to get it right early.

I''d love a sly Norwich homage in their... unfortunately "On The Ball" was a previous Amiga game (although it could be On The Ball Football/Soccer Manager or On The Ball Championship Football or something similar, I dunno if I could get away with that but it is a very old game!) but I thought I should ask the lovely folks of the Pinkun board to offer suggestions, as it''s sure more fun than banging on about libel laws! :D

"Kick It Off" is another obvious suggestion, but it doesn''t sit right in my head as taken out of context (from the context as kicking of the match), you wonder why a player kicking the ball off the field is a pivotal football thing.

So - whaddaya got for me?

[B-ru 0]

The Scrimmage

[blahblahblah 2]

I haven''t got a name for you, but if you want to see a game that does the match side of things well ( in my opinion ), and that might give you a few ideas, check out www.sokker.org (link here for those whose browsers can).   The presentation of their website is pretty shocking, but you can watch a demo match from a link on their front page.  The matches are run in macromedia flash, and the games are calculated on the basis of player skills plus a little bit of random / form elements, each player has 8 different skills, plus form and tactical discipline.  It''s in-depth enough to be interesting, without overwhelming new players with masses of stats.  I like it because the play actually reflects the relative skills of the players involved, so if a good defender is up against an average striker say, then the good defender will win most of the challenges.  When watching a live match, knowing that your winger isn''t quite good enough to get a cross in but hoping he will anyway has all the fun of watching Lee Croft on the wing on a Saturday, for example.  I''d say that On the Ball is a perfectly acceptable name - the name Football Manager has been used since 1981, but that didn''t stop Eidos.  You could always call it On The Ball 2010 if you were worried about copyright, it''s legally different then...

[First Jedi 0]

Eidos doesn''t publish Football Manager, Sega does...! (I realise that was just a slip tho!)

It was when SI Games split from Eidos that they needed a new name and bought the rights to Football Manager (by Kevin Toms). So they didn''t just nick it.

Is sokker open source?

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="First Jedi"]Eidos doesn''t publish Football Manager, Sega does...! (I realise that was just a slip tho!)

It was when SI Games split from Eidos that they needed a new name and bought the rights to Football Manager (by Kevin Toms). So they didn''t just nick it.

Is sokker open source?[/quote]No, it just looks that way from the website [:)] - It''s run by a small Polish development team, their forums are moderated by volunteers, they make a living off it by charging a subscription (about 20 quid a year), for extra features like the ability to watch other peoples'' matches - it was a hobby site initially though.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="First Jedi"]Eidos doesn''t publish Football Manager, Sega does...! (I realise that was just a slip tho!)

It was when SI Games split from Eidos that they needed a new name and bought the rights to Football Manager (by Kevin Toms). So they didn''t just nick it.

Is sokker open source?[/quote]Oh, and another one that comes to mind is www.hattrick.org.  That''s got a text based match engine but is quite similar.  Ironically, with a less effective match engine, but a slightly tidier sit, they have many times the userbase of sokker.

[First Jedi 0]

Um... I''m writing my own engine, I''d love to use another (better) one, but that is irrelevant if I don''t have the source... most of the open source match engines are *very* poor. Poorer than mine, anyway.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="First Jedi"]Um... I''m writing my own engine, I''d love to use another (better) one, but that is irrelevant if I don''t have the source... most of the open source match engines are *very* poor. Poorer than mine, anyway.[/quote]You could always drop them an email and see if they would be willing to share some hints I suppose.  There''s a contact email address on their WHOIS record (www.who.is and then type in their domain name), and the guy who is listed as the contact is active within the game, so you might get a quick response.

[First Jedi 0]

Hmmm - I doubt that very much!!

To be honest, it''s not hints I want - I know what to do, but more time of rolling my own. But to be fair, adapting anyone elses engine would be a pain, too...

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="First Jedi"]Um... I''m writing my own engine, I''d love to use another (better) one, but that is irrelevant if I don''t have the source... most of the open source match engines are *very* poor. Poorer than mine, anyway.[/quote]The problem I guess is that the engine on their site is very much intrinsically linked with the player stats, as it should be IMO, otherwise what else do you have to analyse as a manager but some pretty pictures and an occasional goal.I reckon if you signed up and saw the way they do it, you'' might get some ideas of how you could do it yourself, which would be similar but suited to your games'' structure.Oh, and when you get to beta, let me know - I''m all for a good skive... [:)]

[First Jedi 0]

"The problem I guess is that the engine on their site is very much intrinsically linked with the player stats, as it should be IMO, otherwise what else do you have to analyse as a manager but some pretty pictures and an occasional goal."

er... yep!

"I reckon if you signed up and saw the way they do it, you'' might get some ideas of how you could do it yourself, which would be similar but suited to your games'' structure."

I''ve played footie manager games for nigh on 24 years... and I''ve played most of them! :D

"Oh, and when you get to beta, let me know - I''m all for a good skive... "

Definately!! Won''t be for ages... I''m writing the game as a simulation, before even thinking about adding user interfaces, for interaction. Read this if you''ve the time;

http://www.punkyhosting.com/~zenith/?q=node/4

:)

[Mr_Chimp 0]

Only thing I can think of, and I am aware it''s probably duff, is something along the lines of ''In The Dugout''.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Mr_Chimp"]Only thing I can think of, and I am aware it''s probably duff, is something along the lines of ''In The Dugout''.[/quote]That''s probably better than "Tracksuit Manager", which had an appalling name, but was one of my favourites [:)]

[blahblahblah 2]

Hope you don''t mind, but I''ve read the blog, interesting stuff for someone like me who has considered doing this in the past but been too lazy, and I''ve sent you an email with a few ideas / suggestions...

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]Hope you don''t mind, but I''ve read the blog, interesting stuff for someone like me who has considered doing this in the past but been too lazy, and I''ve sent you an email with a few ideas / suggestions...[/quote]...which have been bounced back, oddly.  Anyway - if you want to drop me a PM, maybe we can discuss it there ?

[First Jedi 0]

"That''s probably better than "Tracksuit Manager", which had an appalling name, but was one of my favourites "

Great game!

My favourite was "The Double".

[First Jedi 0]

My email is the first three letters of "Colin"

Then the symbol.

Then Gavin, but spelt with a "Y" instead of a "G", and it''s a UK address.

(bonus points for guessing the film reference!)

[blahblahblah 2]

No idea on the film reference, but I''ve cheated and logged into your blog [:)]

[First Jedi 0]

That''s even better! I kinda want to use the site not just to organise and muse, but to show a bit of a "portfolio" thing for jobs, and having your input on there is great - I''ll word a reply soon! :D

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="First Jedi"]That''s even better! I kinda want to use the site not just to organise and muse, but to show a bit of a "portfolio" thing for jobs, and having your input on there is great - I''ll word a reply soon! :D[/quote]If you write a good one of these, and if you''ve been writing one for 24 years then it''s likely to be pretty good, and do it in the Mass-User international vein of the sites I mentioned above, you might never need another job.

[First Jedi 0]

"If you write a good one of these, and if you''ve been writing one for 24 years then it''s likely to be pretty good, and do it in the Mass-User international vein of the sites I mentioned above, you might never need another job."

haha - doubtful... I''ve no delusions of grandeur... I keep starting again (as I have with this one) so I''m almost starting from scratch!

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="First Jedi"]"If you write a good one of these, and if you''ve been writing one for 24 years then it''s likely to be pretty good, and do it in the Mass-User international vein of the sites I mentioned above, you might never need another job."

haha - doubtful... I''ve no delusions of grandeur... I keep starting again (as I have with this one) so I''m almost starting from scratch![/quote]That''s kind of the point I was trying to make you see... Keeping it to yourself is cool as a personal project, but these projects tend to develop a life of their own when you hand them over to end users.  I''d pretty much guarantee that a recommendation from a user on either sokker or hattrick would give you 100 users from all over europe within a week.  There is a large demand for this kind of game.  I blame Kevin Toms myself, my parents had the Beatles and the Stones, I got lumbered with Kevin Toms and Level 42...

[Yellow Shirt 17]

[quote user="First Jedi"]"That''s probably better than "Tracksuit Manager", which had an appalling name, but was one of my favourites "

Great game!

My favourite was "The Double".[/quote]The Double was a great, great, game.

[Syteanric 1]

call it "the Gaffer" "the Guv''na" or "please get my freeware title in the hope i get a job in gamees development and become rich!"

good luck with it! i''ll check it out when your finished.. Games development is very difficult to get into, the pay isn''t great and the hours are long but seeing your title publically available, being distributed or sold must be very rewarding.

jas :)

[Joanna Grey 0]

[quote user="First Jedi"] "Kick It Off" is another obvious suggestion, but it doesn''t sit right in my head as taken out of context (from the context as kicking of the match), you wonder why a player kicking the ball off the field is a pivotal football thing. So - whaddaya got for me?[/quote]

You might even have problems with that;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_Off

[First Jedi 0]

"call it "the Gaffer" "the Guv''na" or "please get my freeware title in the hope i get a job in gamees development and become rich!""Freeware? I''m no distributing it... it''ll be online! :D"good luck with it! i''ll check it out when your finished.. Games development is very difficult to get into, the pay isn''t great and the hours are long but seeing your title publically available, being distributed or sold must be very rewarding."Traditional games development is, but it''s changing significantly...

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="First Jedi"]"call it "the Gaffer" "the Guv''na" or "please get my freeware title in the hope i get a job in gamees development and become rich!""

Freeware? I''m no distributing it... it''ll be online! :D

"good luck with it! i''ll check it out when your finished.. Games development is very difficult to get into, the pay isn''t great and the hours are long but seeing your title publically available, being distributed or sold must be very rewarding."

Traditional games development is, but it''s changing significantly...
[/quote]

i have heard some developers putting people on a "contract basis" EG Ubisoft had staff on assassins creed who were then c ontracted to Assassins creed 2... if the game failed to materialise they wouldnt be kept on by Ubi soft and would all be laid off.. lower risk and means the companies can just make even more money by replacing staff as and wehn.

jas :)

[blahblahblah 2]

Usually the staff employed would get the benefit of a higher rate though I think.  My cousin worked for a large software house in Warwickshire for a while, did an MSc in Multimedia & Games development, put together a really good show-reel, got a job there, and was tasked with the job of drawing trees for Colin McCrae Rally games.  Drawing trees is a job apparently.  For 3 years.  Understandably he left and is much happier as a chef in New Zealand.

[First Jedi 0]

It''s kinda strange tho - I want to get into games via the social networks gaming/ mobile phone gaming, route - where my skills (java) and pay (lots!) and general levels of professionalism is transferable to that sector. So it''ll be the "games industry" but without the crappy languages, crap money and crap hours. I''d hate to be in traditional games development - wouldn''t be much fun at all...

[First Jedi 0]

"''In The Dugout''"

Totally missed this before, being distracted by mention of classic spectrum games!

The Dugout is one I''d considered before... although it has a close association with FM as it''s a popular fansite for the game. Securing a URL would be a pain...