Iran: The Middle East's real terrorist state.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

Iran has just demanded arrests of journalists who exposed documents detailing the sexual molestation and beating to death of a female protester protesting the death in custody of Mahsa Amini. This not long after sentencing a rapper to death.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/05/iran-irgc-attack-israel/678247/

On April 21, a week after Iran’s first-ever direct attack on Israel, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei met with his military commanders to gloat. The assault had failed to cause much damage in Israel, but Khamenei claimed victory and tried to give it a patriotic color.

“What matters most,” he said, “is the emergence of the will of the Iranian nation and Iran’s military forces in an important international arena.”

Such national chest-thumping is to be expected from any head of state. But something stood out about the Iranian attacks that made this nationalist reading suspect. Technically speaking, the strikes had been carried out not by Iran’s military but by a militia, a U.S.-designated terrorist organization whose name doesn’t even include Iran: the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps. The IRGC’s Aerospace Force, one of its six divisions, was what fired 300 drones and missiles at Israel.

This is not some bureaucratic “fun fact.” Rather, it illustrates a fundamental truth about Iran: the duality of its institutions, many of which are explicitly defined to be autonomous of both the nation and the state. That duality, in turn, leads to much  head-scratching and confusion about Iran. Is the Islamic Republic a rational and potentially pragmatic actor, like most other nation-states, or is it an ideologically motivated actor, bent on pursuing mayhem in support of its goals?

 

Edited May 2 by littleyellowbirdie

[Fen Canary 898]

What’s the point of these posts? It’s fairly common knowledge that Iran is a run by despotic autocratic regime who rule through fear and violence. Unfortunately it’s not alone in this regard 

[Naturalcynic 683]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

What’s the point of these posts? It’s fairly common knowledge that Iran is a run by despotic autocratic regime who rule through fear and violence. Unfortunately it’s not alone in this regard 

But in terms of fomenting hate and conflict in the ME, Iran is the main player.  If memory serves me correctly it doesn’t seem long ago that some on the political left were decrying US sanctions on Iran and were demanding closer ties with that country.

[Fen Canary 898]

29 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

But in terms of fomenting hate and conflict in the ME, Iran is the main player.  If memory serves me correctly it doesn’t seem long ago that some on the political left were decrying US sanctions on Iran and were demanding closer ties with that country.

Much like with China (and to a lesser extent Russia), there seemed to be a prevalent belief at the time that by bringing these regimes into the wider international community they’d become more westernised. In hindsight it turned out to be absolute rubbish and they all simply carried on as before.

Also unfortunately for the Middle East it seems to be their destiny to spend an eternity locked in a power struggle between the Shia and Sunni Muslim sects, which essentially transpires as Iran and Saudi battling for supremacy via a network of proxies.

Personally I couldn’t really care less which one prevails (although it’s probably more beneficial to the UK if Saudi does, assuming both countries current regimes remain in place) and I don’t want to see a single British bullet wasted defending the interests of any country in the region, be that Iran, Israel or Saudi Arabia.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

17 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

What’s the point of these posts? It’s fairly common knowledge that Iran is a run by despotic autocratic regime who rule through fear and violence. Unfortunately it’s not alone in this regard 

@Yellow fever and @Herman, as you endorsed Fen's question and statement behind the question, I think we could direct a similar question to you: What's the point of you flagging up every alleged transgression by Israel in the Arab-Israeli conflict if you're going to choose to ignore all other factors ,which you clearly wish to given your resistance to bringing Iran into the overall equation? How can you pretend to be in any way objective about the Arab-Israeli conflict when you're clearly dead set on ignoring the parts played by all other actors than Israel? The question has to be asked: If Iran's malevolence is such common knowledge, why is its part as a primary driver in the Arab-Israeli conflict and arguably the single biggest hurdle to a peaceful settlement, ignored?

Edited May 4 by littleyellowbirdie

[Fen Canary 898]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

@Yellow fever and @Herman, as you endorsed Fen's question and statement behind the question, I think we could direct a similar question to you: What's the point of you flagging up every alleged transgression by Israel in the Arab-Israeli conflict if you're going to choose to ignore all other factors ,which you clearly wish to given your resistance to bringing Iran into the overall equation? How can you pretend to be in any way objective about the Arab-Israeli conflict when you're clearly dead set on ignoring the parts played by all other actors than Israel? The question has to be asked: If Iran's malevolence is such common knowledge, why is its part in the Arab-Israeli conflict ignored?

So this thread is an attempt at deflection then (which is what I assumed to be honest). Rather than trying to defend the fact Israel has killed 15,000 children in 6 months you’ll instead point to the fact the Iranian regime isn’t very nice either 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

13 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

So this thread is an attempt at deflection then (which is what I assumed to be honest). Rather than trying to defend the fact Israel has killed 15,000 children in 6 months you’ll instead point to the fact the Iranian regime isn’t very nice either 

No; it's seeking to point out your persistent denial of the fact that there's more to the conflict than simply the actions of Israel. Assessing a conflict overall requires looking at all the players, not just one.

The Middle East thread has a persistent theme: If you get rid of Israel, there's peace in the Middle East; this simply isn't true.

The fact is that without Iran's input, October 7th wouldn't have happened, and the consequent response wouldn't be happening either. And without the persistent refusal of countries like Iran to recognise Israel, a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian problem would be much more viable. Like I said, these are all valid observations that are wilfully ignored in the prevailing narrative over the conflict that seeks to lay all blame at Israel's door.

Edited May 4 by littleyellowbirdie

[Fen Canary 898]

15 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No; it's seeking to point out your persistent denial of the fact that there's more to the conflict than simply the actions of Israel. Assessing a conflict overall requires looking at all the players, not just one.

The Middle East thread has a persistent theme: If you get rid of Israel, there's peace in the Middle East; this simply isn't true.

The fact is that without Iran's input, October 7th wouldn't have happened, and the consequent response wouldn't be happening either. And without the persistent refusal of countries like Iran to recognise Israel, a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian problem would be much more viable. Like I said, these are all valid observations that are wilfully ignored in the prevailing narrative over the conflict that seeks to lay all blame at Israel's door.

Iran didn’t start the trouble with the Palestinians, that was solely Israel’s doing even if Iran has indeed made a volatile situation worse to further its own ends.

I don’t believe I’ve ever heard anybody on here defend Iran in any way shape or form. I have however seen you defend Israel killing tens of thousands of civilians in a bombing campaign that’s destroyed over half of Gaza’s buildings, seen 500 Palestinians killed in the West Bank and pushed thousands to the brink of starvation.

You also criticise Iran for funding Hamas while ignoring that Israel actively promoted Hamas at the expense of the PA in an attempt to divide the Palestinians.

I had sympathy for Israel after the attack in October. That has long since disappeared due to their actions in the months that have followed. They’re a bunch of animals who are no better than Iran or Hamas in my eyes 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

6 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Iran didn’t start the trouble with the Palestinians, that was solely Israel’s doing even if Iran has indeed made a volatile situation worse to further its own ends.

Not true. Iran was there right at the start of the whole conflict as part of the coalition that sought to wipe Israel off the map when it declared independence in 1948 on the back of UN181, which partitioned mandatory Palestine as a resolution of International law. That attempt by Iran and others is the source of why Palestine has never been established as a state.

And the refusal of Iran and some other states to recognise Israel remains a barrier to a peaceful resolution of the conflict.

Edited May 4 by littleyellowbirdie

[Fen Canary 898]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

Not true. Iran was there right at the start of the whole conflict as part of the coalition that sought to wipe Israel off the map when it declared independence in 1948.

It wasn’t Iran that forcibly displaced Jews to create a Palestinian state, it was Jewish terrorist groups that waged a violent campaign and evicted Arabs.

Ive no time for Iran or its proxies, but the Israel and the IDF are just as disgusting in my eyes. If any other nation on earth acted in the way Israel does all its leaders would be up in The Hague on war crimes, or better yet swinging from the end of a rope 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

4 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

It wasn’t Iran that forcibly displaced Jews to create a Palestinian state, it was Jewish terrorist groups that waged a violent campaign and evicted Arabs.

Ive no time for Iran or its proxies, but the Israel and the IDF are just as disgusting in my eyes. If any other nation on earth acted in the way Israel does all its leaders would be up in The Hague on war crimes, or better yet swinging from the end of a rope 

Now who's deflecting? There was no Jewish terrorism until Arab terrorism in mandatory Palestine moved the British government towards reneging on the Balfour declaration.

Also, Palestinians were not forcibly displaced, as evidenced by the fact that 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs, the descendants of those who chose to remain where they were peacefully in the state of Israel instead of fighting.

Edited May 4 by littleyellowbirdie

[Fen Canary 898]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Now who's deflecting? There was no Jewish terrorism until Arab terrorism in mandatory Palestine moved the British government towards reneging on the Balfour declaration.

Also, Palestinians were not forcibly displaced, as evidenced by the fact that 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs, the descendants of those who chose to remain where they were peacefully in the state of Israel instead of fighting.

So you’re happy to defend Jewish terrorism while condemning the Muslim variety?

As I say, animals every one of them, absolute scum 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

Just now, Fen Canary said:

So you’re happy to defend Jewish terrorism while condemning the Muslim variety?

As I say, animals every one of them, absolute scum 

So you're happy to condemn Jewish terrorism while defending the Arab variety?

[Fen Canary 898]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So you're happy to condemn Jewish terrorism while defending the Arab variety?

I’ve never defended the Arab variety. But yes I do condemn Jewish terrorism and the behaviour of Israel 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

3 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I’ve never defended the Arab variety. But yes I do condemn Jewish terrorism and the behaviour of Israel 

Well you say I'm defending Jewish terrorism by pointing out Arab terrorism, so by your own apparent definitions, you're defending Arab terrorism by pointing out Jewish terrorism, .

But I'll repeat, there would never have been any Jewish terrorism in the first place if the UK hadn't sought to renege on a commitment made in the Balfour declaration seeking to appease Arab terrorism in mandatory Palestine against UK forces.

Edited May 5 by littleyellowbirdie

[Fen Canary 898]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Well you say I'm defending Jewish terrorism by pointing out Arab terrorism, so by your own apparent definitions, you're defending Arab terrorism by pointing out Jewish terrorism, .

Fair enough, if that’s the game you wish to play then I’ll leave you to it. You’re clearly happy for a regime to murder 15,000 children. I think anybody willing to defend actions of that nature is lacking a moral compass.

I’d have thought a group that suffered from collective punishment under the Nazis would be squeamish about dishing it out themselves but apparently that isn’t the case.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

48 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Fair enough, if that’s the game you wish to play then I’ll leave you to it. You’re clearly happy for a regime to murder 15,000 children. I think anybody willing to defend actions of that nature is lacking a moral compass.

I’d have thought a group that suffered from collective punishment under the Nazis would be squeamish about dishing it out themselves but apparently that isn’t the case.

You wanted to talk about the history of the conflict, but only select parts of the history aiming to attack Israelis and Jews in isolation. Now I've balanced that with some wider facts you want to run away from thinking about history and go back to 'Israelis have killed lots of civilians in the last few months so they're the bad guys'.

Apparently, according to your moral compass, our bombing of Dresden and the killing of 25,000 civilians in a single night must mean the Nazis were the good guys and Churchill should have hanged.

Edited May 5 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

Happy international girls day, Iran-style.

 

[TheGunnShow 6,091]

Wasn't like that under Mohammad Mosaddegh. The theocratic s-h-i-thole that Iran now is only came into being after that coup - aided and abetted by the USA and UK in response to the then nationalisation of the oil industry.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

41 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Wasn't like that under Mohammad Mosaddegh. The theocratic s-h-i-thole that Iran now is only came into being after that coup - aided and abetted by the USA and UK in response to the then nationalisation of the oil industry.

I don't think you can really pin down cause and affect quite as simply as that given you're talking about one event in 1953 and one in 1979. And from the government of Iran's point of view, trying to short change international investors often bites you in the ****.

Edited May 10 by littleyellowbirdie

[TheGunnShow 6,091]

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I don't think you can really pin down cause and affect quite as simply as that given you're talking about one event in 1953 and one in 1979. And from the government of Iran's point of view, trying to short change international investors often bites you in the ****.

Sure, I'm basically saying Persia back then was a relatively functional democracy and not remotely as overtly theocratic as the current guise of Iran - which went full authoritarian headbanger under Ahmadinejad after a frustrated reformist sort in Khatami, and whilst there was a glimmer of hope under a generally more moderate voice in Rouhani, it really became crystal clear to most Westerners that the president there just happened to be somewhat of a figurehead, and the real power lay elsewhere.

I'd say Iran should have been an early precautionary tale of "be careful what you wish for" when it comes to the removal of regimes.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

17 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Sure, I'm basically saying Persia back then was a relatively functional democracy and not remotely as overtly theocratic as the current guise of Iran - which went full authoritarian headbanger under Ahmadinejad after a frustrated reformist sort in Khatami, and whilst there was a glimmer of hope under a generally more moderate voice in Rouhani, it really became crystal clear to most Westerners that the president there just happened to be somewhat of a figurehead, and the real power lay elsewhere.

I'd say Iran should have been an early precautionary tale of "be careful what you wish for" when it comes to the removal of regimes.

There was a good episode of the rest is politics recently with former heads of  mi5 and the SIS that made exactly that point about regime change. Almost felt sorry for Alistair Campbell overseeing that discussion... especially when they got onto the subject of using raw intelligence to make a case to the public.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

A bit of who's who for you. The lady with the nice figure and the slinky little black number is Ayatollah Khomenei's granddaugther.

 

[canarydan23 4,130]

Israeli civilians, not even indoctrinated IDF scum, intercept and destroy aid that would save starving children's lives.

LYB: BuT iRaN!!!

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

47 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Israeli civilians, not even indoctrinated IDF scum, intercept and destroy aid that would save starving children's lives.

LYB: BuT iRaN!!!

Iranian Women getting beaten to death by Iranian 'morality police', Iranian rappers sentenced to death, directors fleeing eight year prison sentences for 'security offences', Iran financing Islamist terror groups,including Hamas, throughout the Middle East and Africa creating wars and contributing to more than one of the other genocide emergencies in the world that you display zero interest in.

Canarydan on the Iran thread: BuT IsRaEl!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 21:33 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/03/iran-institutional-discrimination-against-women-and-girls-enabled-human

From 8th March 2024.

Iran: Institutional discrimination against women and girls enabled human rights violations and crimes against humanity in the context of recent protests, UN Fact-Finding Mission says

Edited Tuesday at 22:15 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarydan23 4,130]

8 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Iranian Women getting beaten to death by Iranian 'morality police', Iranian rappers sentenced to death, directors fleeing eight year prison sentences for 'security offences', Iran financing Islamist terror groups,including Hamas, throughout the Middle East and Africa creating wars and contributing to more than one of the other genocide emergencies in the world that you display zero interest in.

Canarydan on the Iran thread: BuT IsRaEl!!!!!!!

I abhor the Iranian regime.

You're really quite unhinged with this whole "you don't go on about how much you don't like Iran so must love them" shtick. I don't recall you saying you think Ian Huntley is a b*stard. What does that mean?

And as has been put to you countless times, should be not be holding an alleged democracy like Israel to a higher standard than backwards, dogmatic, cruel regimes like Iran? That isn't a rhetorical question, by the way. The answer is yes even before you consider the fact that we arm Israel.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

49 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I abhor the Iranian regime.

You're really quite unhinged with this whole "you don't go on about how much you don't like Iran so must love them" shtick. I don't recall you saying you think Ian Huntley is a b*stard. What does that mean?

And as has been put to you countless times, should be not be holding an alleged democracy like Israel to a higher standard than backwards, dogmatic, cruel regimes like Iran? That isn't a rhetorical question, by the way. The answer is yes even before you consider the fact that we arm Israel.

I'm not a massive fan of a lot of what Israel's doing at the moment, but equally I do get how events since the second intifada have driven Israeli politics to the right. That said, you've still got active protest in Israel and actually Israeli public opinion is starting to shift away from the right as there's more concern about getting hostages back than there is belief that Hamas can be completely dislodged in Gaza.

In Israel, there's active and open peaceful protest against the current conflict where nobody's being rounded up, let alone being put to death as is the norm in Iran with dissidents; it's a functioning democracy that is represented by propagandists as something actually worse than Iran.

Iran's right at the heart of the Arab Israeli conflict, it's at the heart of how the last peace process collapsed, and yet it's ignored. There's no 'yeah but' about it, Iran should be in the spotlight regarding Middle East instability at least as much as Israel. Actually, more so. If Israel should be subject to rabid criticism, then that applies twice as much to Iran ss a highly aggressive party driving instability in the Lavant, throughout the Middle East and throughout Africa with Islamist violence in Africa.

Even Saudi Arabia is on board with the principle of a two-state solution now and has publicly spoken in favour of it.

You rant about 'IDF scum'. How is it that in all the conflicts going on, the IDF is the only force in the world your reserve this sort of rhetoric for?

"And as has been put to you countless times, should be not be holding an alleged democracy like Israel to a higher standard than backwards, dogmatic, cruel regimes like Iran?" No. This is exactly the perverse logic that people like Craig Murray uses to paint the West as worse than Russia, China, Iran, and all the other human rights abusers out there that are vastly worse than Israel. This is exactly the sort of logic that provides cover for the propagandists that argue that Israel shouldn't exist, in denial of the human rights of Israelis. It's only democracies that have any interest in human rights at all; get rid of democracies and you might as well forget about international law entirely, so while it's right that democracies should want to see other democracies held to account for their abuses of human rights, it makes no sense whatsoever for democracies to disproportionately villify democracies and give autocracies and dictatorships a free pass on human rights violations; doing that undermines the ability of our own governments to stand up to autrocracies defending the rights of other democracies like Ukraine at the moment and also to speak up for the rights of people having their rights abused in states like Iran.

Also, regarding war crimes and the ICC, the purpose of international war crimes tribunuals is holding individuals to account, not countries.When Slobodan Milosevic was convicted, it was his conviction, not Serbia's. Equally, should Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, or any IDF soldiers be convicted of war crimes, it will be their convictions, not a conviction of Israel or of the IDF. The way allegations of war crimes is used to demonise Israel in a way not duplicated with any other country, including Russia, only goes to underline how Israel has been allowed to be excessively demonised and marginalised by the fine work of anti-Israeli and/or anti-Semitic propagandists.

Finally, if they do have arrest warrants put on them, which I must be honest, I'm not entirely averse to any more, it should be accompanied by arrest warrants for the Hamas military leaders who orchestrated October 7th, which the head of the ICC has referred to as crimes against humanity and fit the legal definition of genocidal acts.

I'll keep making the point until it finally gets through: Until the 36 states who refuse normal diplomatic relations with Israel and in cases like Iran, actively argue for and pursue by practical means its destruction are recognised as a barrier to actually brokering a peaceful solution, there can never be a peaceful solution.

So let's talk about Iran and the other barriers to a peaceful solution for the Palestinians; not just rant about Israel and let the other contributors carry on making the situation worse with impunity.

Edited Wednesday at 06:55 by littleyellowbirdie