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[Tommo 51]

Some interesting debates, opinions even left field names been thrown about over the last 12 hours or so.

given how crucial, make or break this next appointment is, there has to be some criteria from which the long list can be truly filtered down to who we truly would be happy with being at the helm.

based on the following criteria:-

1. consistent formation with attacking style that will get get the most out of these players and get the crowd behind the team win lose or draw 

2. Work with and accept our financial model in terms of recruitment, salaries etc in the champ and prem league (accept this could change with Attensio but is more medium term) 

3. Established proven championship and/or premier league managerial experience 

4. little/no compensation required 

5. effective communication skills to get consistent messages across and earn trust and respect of the players 

6. can develop our young players to their potential, particularly our South American players with the language barrier still possibly a constraint in this 

then for me it’s between Mark Robins and Hassenhuttl.  Possibly Wilder gets an interview but doubts after Middlesbrough stint. 
 

the ego of the latter that he should manage higher than champ may be a decisive factor. The likes of Gerrard, Parker, Dyche don’t hit the criteria for one reason or another

 

i am sure there is other criteria that people would add or tweak to the above.  But it’s some way of measuring the candidates and shortlisting from a fans perspective.

 

thoughts ? 

 

 

[kick it off 1,952]

Don't think champs or prem experience is requisite, at least not for me.

Lambert, Farke, Neil all took us up with no experience of managing in the champs or the prem. Obvious flaw in my argument is only Lambert kept us up with any level of success, but you have to get up there to stay up there.

I dont want Parker, Dyche, Wilder etc, and don't think Robins or Hassenhutl would be bad choices at all, I dont think they are the only options though. I'd rather be looking abroad. Even with the constraints of Brexit, there are great coaches available, Celtic plucked Postecoglou from Japan for example.

Edited December 28, 2022 by kick it off

[Tommo 51]

Clearly there is no guarantee any manager will walk through the door and deliver the objective of promotion to the prem league but I just feel after the last appointment that if we are serious still about promotion then someone with some demonstrable pedigree in the English or Scottish leagues , preferably champ or prem league level then there names should be right up there. 
 

unless the majority of fans and the board are United and happy to be patient with the next manager and if results don’t go our way and we end up top 12, selling off the likes of Aarons etc and rebuilding the squad in the summer to refresh and go again next season for promotion then for me it’s too much of a gamble taking on an abroad appointment 

[kick it off 1,952]

Robins has done well the last few years but he's had some pretty unsuccessful stints everywhere he's been for 10 years prior to the last 3. Never managed a club with anything close to our budget or our calibre of players. His teams have historically faded and ended seasons with a bad run of form to miss out on promotion. He's as much of a gamble as a South American coach.

You say "after the last appointment" we need someone with experience in English Leagues, preferably champs or prem... maybe like someone who managed Walsall and kept them up in league 1 after taking over when they were 9 points adrift, took over at Brentford and turned them into the championship's "entertainers", before moving to villa where he took them up through the playoffs after 10 consecutive wins and then kept them up in the prem...?

Experience of any specific league doesnt mean very much. The coach is either good enough or they're not. Playing style is a far bigger concern for me.

Edited December 28, 2022 by kick it off

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,297]

8 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Robins has done well the last few years but he's had some pretty unsuccessful stints everywhere he's been for 10 years prior to the last 3. Never managed a club with anything close to our budget or our calibre of players. His teams have historically faded and ended seasons with a bad run of form to miss out on promotion. He's as much of a gamble as a South American coach.

You say "after the last appointment" we need someone with experience in English Leagues, preferably champs or prem... maybe like someone who managed Walsall and kept them up in league 1 after taking over when they were 9 points adrift, took over at Brentford and turned them into the championship's "entertainers", before moving to villa where he took them up through the playoffs after 10 consecutive wins and then kept them up in the prem...?

Experience of any specific league doesnt mean very much. The coach is either good enough or they're not. Playing style is a far bigger concern for me.

He didn’t though. This was a common misconception when Smith was appointed, even the Archant journos ran with it - which used to irritate me as it wasn’t factual.

Warburton turned Brentford into the championship force they were… under Smith they stagnated around mid table, before improving once Frank took over. 

As for Villa, yes that’s true. But look at the squad! Smith wasn’t the championship guru many made him out to be. 

[Tommo 51]

In the case of Smith, many journalists and fans (including myself) thought that he was the right appointment. Hindsight is such a wonderful thing isn’t it. Farke’s first season wasn’t a great one and many will have questioned him at the helm before the following promotion season. 
 

I agree that experience doesn’t guarantee anything and we are both in agreement that we want to see consistent and more obvious, attractive style of play.

I am not averse to an abroad appointment but there needs to be some patience with the fans and clear that it’s a bigger gamble on whether we can achieve promotion this season or not 

[kick it off 1,952]

4 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

He didn’t though. This was a common misconception when Smith was appointed, even the Archant journos ran with it - which used to irritate me as it wasn’t factual.

Warburton turned Brentford into the championship force they were… under Smith they stagnated around mid table, before improving once Frank took over. 

As for Villa, yes that’s true. But look at the squad! Smith wasn’t the championship guru many made him out to be. 

Sorry, my reply re: Smith was steeped in sarcasm - that was the point I was making, experience isn't important. I agree entirely with what you say, Smith benefitted from Brentford having imo pound for pound the best recruitment department in UK football, and villas wealth of riches at champs level. Look how far Brentford have come since the guy with "experience" of English football left, and they appointed a decent foreign coach.

I disagree on Warburton, I think he was also benefactor of that recruitment department.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

12 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Sorry, my reply re: Smith was steeped in sarcasm - that was the point I was making, experience isn't important. I agree entirely with what you say, Smith benefitted from Brentford having imo pound for pound the best recruitment department in UK football, and villas wealth of riches at champs level. Look how far Brentford have come since the guy with "experience" of English football left, and they appointed a decent foreign coach.

I disagree on Warburton, I think he was also benefactor of that recruitment department.

It really is laughable how this guff is repeated again and again like it's irrefutable fact even after he has been sacked. Most Brentford fans are highly respectful of what Smith did for them. You've no right to trash talk his achievements elsewhere, pretending you've closely followed  his career elsewhere, after he has been sacked according to your wishes just because you've got your wish and suddenly you realise you can end up looking like idiots that should have just supported and left decision-making to others.

We'll finish up with whoever is available and willing to take the job at a club where significant numbers of fans consider good support to be sitting there quietly and not booing their own team.

Edited December 28, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[kick it off 1,952]

9 minutes ago, Tommo said:

In the case of Smith, many journalists and fans (including myself) thought that he was the right appointment. Hindsight is such a wonderful thing isn’t it.

Many others including myself had to really talk ourselves into any kind of enthusiasm for Smith because it felt like abjectedly the wrong appointment. No hindsight needed on that one.

I'm in total agreement with you on most of what you say, I just think "experience of prem or champs" is essentially a synonym for failure somewhere else. I want somebody who is on the the upward trajectory of their career, not the the downward slope. I'm not bothered what League they come from.

Look at the scum, couldn't get out of League 1 with "experienced" and seemingly good for their level appointments but now flying high with a guy who has no experience of being a first team manager, let alone experience of the league - he had only ever managed spurs and man utd u18 teams before and was an assistant to mourinho. That's "experience" I would get behind, rather than a championship retread. Speaking of which, we could do a lot worse than poach McKenna off the scum....

[kick it off 1,952]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It really is laughable how this guff is repeated again and again like it's irrefutable fact even after he has been sacked. Most Brentford fans are highly respectful of what Smith did for them. You've no right to trash talk his achievements elsewhere, pretending you've closely followed  his career elsewhere, after he has been sacked according to your wishes just because you've got your wish and suddenly you realise you can end up looking like idiots that should have just supported and left decision-making to others.

We'll finish up with whoever is available and willing to take the job.

What has Smith got over you that your obsessively defending him?

The football was ****. He failed to keep us up. He had one good run of 10 games and then the wheels fell off. No system, no formation, no clue.

At Brentford, he left, they got a proper coach and shot up the league. At villa, he had a good 10 game spell to get them up with probably the best squad thats ever been in the championship, he then spent 200 million and scraped staying up by virtue of the goal line system failing and not awarding a clear goal. He left, they shot up the league.

Why exactly would anybody want Smith to be Norwich manager at this point? You seem very vocal saying we're wrong for wanting rid of the useless dinosaur but can't seem to explain why.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

1 minute ago, kick it off said:

What has Smith got over you that your obsessively defending him?

The football was ****. He failed to keep us up. He had one good run of 10 games and then the wheels fell off. No system, no formation, no clue.

At Brentford, he left, they got a proper coach and shot up the league. At villa, he had a good 10 game spell to get them up with probably the best squad thats ever been in the championship, he then spent 200 million and scraped staying up by virtue of the goal line system failing and not awarding a clear goal. He left, they shot up the league.

Why exactly would anybody want Smith to be Norwich manager at this point? You seem very vocal saying we're wrong for wanting rid of the useless dinosaur but can't seem to explain why.

I'm not defending him; I'm criticising you for unjust and unsubstantiated attacks on him stated like they're facts rather than your own jaundiced opinion.

Edited December 28, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,297]

13 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Sorry, my reply re: Smith was steeped in sarcasm - that was the point I was making, experience isn't important. I agree entirely with what you say, Smith benefitted from Brentford having imo pound for pound the best recruitment department in UK football, and villas wealth of riches at champs level. Look how far Brentford have come since the guy with "experience" of English football left, and they appointed a decent foreign coach.

I disagree on Warburton, I think he was also benefactor of that recruitment department.

Ah sorry, gotcha.

RE Warburton, before being appointed Brentford Manager he was heavily involved with their recruitment. So a sound argument to say he benefitted from his own previous work. 

 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,297]

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It really is laughable how this guff is repeated again and again like it's irrefutable fact even after he has been sacked. Most Brentford fans are highly respectful of what Smith did for them. You've no right to trash talk his achievements elsewhere, pretending you've closely followed  his career elsewhere, after he has been sacked according to your wishes just because you've got your wish and suddenly you realise you can end up looking like idiots that should have just supported and left decision-making to others.

We'll finish up with whoever is available and willing to take the job at a club where significant numbers of fans consider good support to be sitting there quietly and not booing.

it isn’t ‘guff’ at all.

I’m very close to a Brentford fan. Most fans were not happy with Smith at the time, and the football was seen as far less expansive and effective as it previously was under Warburton. They weren’t sad when he left, which says it all.

[kick it off 1,952]

3 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Ah sorry, gotcha.

RE Warburton, before being appointed Brentford Manager he was heavily involved with their recruitment. So a sound argument to say he benefitted from his own previous work. 

 

Didn't realise that, thanks 👍

[kick it off 1,952]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'm not defending him; I'm criticising you for unjust and unsubstantiated attacks on him stated like they're facts rather than your own jaundiced opinion.

What is unjust?

I have stated facts.

Brentford have one of, if not the best recruitment teams in UK football.... fact

Brentford shot up the table/leagues after Smith left and Frank took over... fact

Villa had one of the best squads ever in the championship... fact

He spent 200 million but they still only stayed up because of a dodgy no-award of a goal that had crossed the line... fact

So again, which bit do you disagree with? Which bit is my "jaundiced opinion"? Which bit is an "unsubstantiated attack"? Please highlight it very clearly, because at the moment, you look like you're on some bizarre Trumpian crusade to come up with alternate facts

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

2 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

it isn’t ‘guff’ at all.

I’m very close to a Brentford fan. Most fans were not happy with Smith at the time, and the football was seen as far less expansive and effective as it previously was under Warburton. They weren’t sad when he left, which says it all.

It is guff. He did fine at Brentford, and he was part of a setup designed to disperse decision-making throughout a distributed decision-making structure just like that we have. It never was all on him, but too many fans are too stupid to appreciate that because they still believe replacing managers is a magic bullet.

I'm not defending Smith; I'm simply saying those who ever believed sacking him was going to be a magic panacea are painfully deluded. If this turns out well then we can count ourselves incredibly lucky.

[Tommo 51]

11 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Many others including myself had to really talk ourselves into any kind of enthusiasm for Smith because it felt like abjectedly the wrong appointment. No hindsight needed on that one.

I'm in total agreement with you on most of what you say, I just think "experience of prem or champs" is essentially a synonym for failure somewhere else. I want somebody who is on the the upward trajectory of their career, not the the downward slope. I'm not bothered what League they come from.

Look at the scum, couldn't get out of League 1 with "experienced" and seemingly good for their level appointments but now flying high with a guy who has no experience of being a first team manager, let alone experience of the league - he had only ever managed spurs and man utd u18 teams before and was an assistant to mourinho. That's "experience" I would get behind, rather than a championship retread. Speaking of which, we could do a lot worse than poach McKenna off the scum....

Understand your view point, not everybody was sold on Dean Smith and it’s good that we all have our differing opinions. For me he was the better choice than other candidates willing to take the job on at the time and at that time we appeared to be seeking a more established name than taking another punt on a Farke style appointment. 
 

moving the experience versus no experience to one side, I think the other criteria supports the majority of views that appear to be on this forum that the likes of Dyche wouldn’t be a good fit. Parker was critical of Bournemouth in his final days for not having financial muscle to compete effectively in the prem so he is a no for me. 
 

my left field one for someone who hasn’t got loads of first team managerial experience is Mike Jackson who was caretaker manager at Burnley. Seemed to get a tune out of the players when the chips were down in the prem. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

9 minutes ago, kick it off said:

What is unjust?

I have stated facts.

Brentford have one of, if not the best recruitment teams in UK football.... fact

Brentford shot up the table/leagues after Smith left and Frank took over... fact

Villa had one of the best squads ever in the championship... fact

He spent 200 million but they still only stayed up because of a dodgy no-award of a goal that had crossed the line... fact

So again, which bit do you disagree with? Which bit is my "jaundiced opinion"? Which bit is an "unsubstantiated attack"? Please highlight it very clearly, because at the moment, you look like you're on some bizarre Trumpian crusade to come up with alternate facts

They're individual facts in isolation picked to construct your own narrative to discount giving him any credit for anything throughout a career where this is only his second sacking in over a 10-year career in continuous employment featuring only 3 jobs. As actual arguments they're worthless.

Edited December 28, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[kick it off 1,952]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

They're individual facts in isolation picked to construct your own narrative to discount giving him any credit for anything. As actual arguments they're worthless.

So they are facts then?

So we shouldn't use facts to construct a narrative but instead should just ignore the facts, not use them to form opinions and not have an opinion at all unless it's one you agree with?

Glad we've cleared that up. Bizarre.

On a related note, I've looked up how Brentford fans reacted when he left... pretty much they liked him as a bloke, thought he was limited and didn't care one way or another and were happy to just trust their structure as they didnt see smith as being essential to progress... almost like he was a beneficiary of their recruitment team and structure or something... where have I heard that before?

https://griffinpark.org/forums/threads/dean-smith-unattached.130937/

Edited December 28, 2022 by kick it off

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

1 minute ago, kick it off said:

So they are facts then?

So we shouldn't use facts to construct a narrative but instead should just ignore the facts, not use them to form opinions and not have an opinion at all unless it's one you agree with?

Glad we've cleared that up. Bizarre.

On a related note, I've looked up how Brentford fans reacted when he left... pretty much they didn't care one way or another and were happy to just trust their structure... 

https://griffinpark.org/forums/threads/dean-smith-unattached.130937/

You should use all the facts to create an honest picture. What you're doing is the stuff of lawyers and politicians.

Good on them for trusting their structure. Just a shame so many of our own fans are too arrogant to do that.

Edited December 28, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[kick it off 1,952]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You should use all the facts to create an honest picture. What you're doing is the stuff of lawyers and politicians.

What facts am I missing? I'm very open to hearing what you have to say, you just don't actually say anything at all. Youve offered nothing to support any alternative viewpoint, just attacked mine... politicians you say... 🤔

Edited December 28, 2022 by kick it off

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

46 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

He didn’t though. This was a common misconception when Smith was appointed, even the Archant journos ran with it - which used to irritate me as it wasn’t factual.

Warburton turned Brentford into the championship force they were… under Smith they stagnated around mid table, before improving once Frank took over. 

As for Villa, yes that’s true. But look at the squad! Smith wasn’t the championship guru many made him out to be. 

100% This 👍

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

2 minutes ago, kick it off said:

What facts am I missing?

I really can't be bothered. You know full well what's missing given that it has been done to death. He has gone, so move on, and maybe take a bit of ownership if this turns out to be an utter disaster.

Edited December 28, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[kick it off 1,952]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

I really can't be bothered. You know full well what's missing given that it has been done to death. He has gone, so move on.

Soooo there aren't any then. Jesus christ you're not very good at trolling.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

Just now, kick it off said:

Soooo there aren't any then. Jesus christ you're not very good at trolling.

They're all over this forum as you know full well.  If we finish up worse off this season from this, I hope you can finally show a bit of humility, although I'm sure you won't.

[kick it off 1,952]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

They're all over this forum as you know full well.  If we finish up worse off this season from this, I hope you can finally show a bit of humility, although I'm sure you won't.

I havent seen them. Ive asked you several times to point them out, but you wont for no clear reason. Little yellow Boris.

Worse off than what? We're 20th in the form table over the last 13 games (about 30% of the season) and have been playing turgid hoofball with no plan for 12 months now. We weren't doing anything except slipping to midtable obscurity under Smith so unless we get relegated, how will it be worse?

Maybe you should show some humility and realise that Occam's razor suggests that your isolated viewpoint might not be right?

Edited December 28, 2022 by kick it off

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

7 minutes ago, kick it off said:

I havent seen them. Ive asked you several times to point them out, but you wont for no clear reason. Little yellow Boris.

Worse off than what? We're 20th in the form table over the last 13 games. That's more than a quarter of the season. 

Maybe you should show some humility and realise that Occam's razor suggests that your isolated viewpoint might not be right?

Yellow Boris? Eh? You're more of a Farage, what with selected use of facts to make an argument. For example, it's a fact that members of the European Parliament were arrested for money-laundering by the Belgian authorities, which 'proves', by Occam's razor, that leaving the EU was a good thing according to your philosophy on 'facts' and determining a fair view, as opposed to constructing an argument...

Edited December 28, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,297]

21 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It is guff. He did fine at Brentford, and he was part of a setup designed to disperse decision-making throughout a distributed decision-making structure just like that we have. It never was all on him, but too many fans are too stupid to appreciate that because they still believe replacing managers is a magic bullet.

I'm not defending Smith; I'm simply saying those who ever believed sacking him was going to be a magic panacea are painfully deluded. If this turns out well then we can count ourselves incredibly lucky.

Brentford achieved more with his predecessor and successor. That’s a hard argument to deny.

And if you believe we have a similar coherent, decision-making structure as Brentford have or had then, you must be smoking guff 😉. 
 

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

24 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I

I'm not defending Smith; I'm simply saying those who ever believed sacking him was going to be a magic panacea are painfully deluded. If this turns out well then we can count ourselves incredibly lucky.

I fail to see how anyone could watch the last 2 games and think it could possibly be any worse. I've not seen anything quite that bad since the days of Roeder. 

There are several posters on this forum who were being ridiculed for their attitude towards Smith when things were going well. But it turns out that they knew a fluke of the fixture list when they saw it. 

[kick it off 1,952]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yellow Boris? Eh? You're more of a Farage, what with selected use of facts to make an argument. For example, it's a fact that members of the European Parliament were arrested for money-laundering by the Belgian authorities, which 'proves', by Occam's razor, that leaving the EU was a good thing according to your philosophy on 'facts' and determining a fair view, as opposed to constructing an argument...

That doesn't even make sense.

I've asked you what facts I'm missing, you can't give me a single one. Not one.

I build my opinions based on facts. I've outlined very clearly what my opinion is and why I think it. You have repeatedly attacked it with no explanation or counter.

Either put up or shut up, it's boring.

I'm happy to listen to your opinion, the "facts" that support it and discuss reasonably. I'm not prepared to sit here listening to you whine about me being wrong with literally nothing to support or substantiate your assertion. 

But we all know you won't offer any facts, as you have no interest in sensible debate, just a bizarre attention seeking crusade to disagree with everybody else in the room. 

Again, happy to discuss with you if you do want to discuss, but either put up something worth discussing, or shut up.