The "Narrative"

[sonyc 5,541]

3 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

remember one place where I worked HR arranged a workshop with a management guru who came in and told us all about Foucault and how following his ideas could make us more effective in the workplace. Foucault, FFS!

Haha....me too. I had a whole day on it at a seminar.

I learnt F*** all in terms of application in my working life😅😂

[Well b back 3,309]

On 23/12/2022 at 16:01, Capt. Pants said:

If he were a bit more open, honest and conciliatory in his media responses I believe he would get far better acceptance from supporters. For example he insists on protecting the players when the reality is they are equally to blame in my view. Some have underformed, made stupid errors, lacked effort, lacked fitness. I see no harm in him calling this out tbh. After all we're constantly doing it on this forum. I wish he would.

There's also the possibility that he has been told what to say and how to say it.

I honestly believe there is a better version of Dean Smith than the one we are seeing. Something is really not right with our club. I can't believe how it's gone wrong so badly, so quickly.

 

Living in Birmingham we were with the Villa part of the family yesterday. When at Villa they told me he was criticised for one thing, being to attacking.

[canarybubbles 1,954]

36 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Haha....me too. I had a whole day on it at a seminar.

I learnt F*** all in terms of application in my working life😅😂

Maybe it was the same guy! Unfortunately for him, several of the people doing the seminar had actually read Foucault, and felt that the presenter was clearly misrepresenting his ideas to push a pro-business, pro-management message, so the seminar was not a glorious success. I doubt if HR were happy. Like Smith blaming the fans, I'm sure they blamed their uppity workforce.

Edited December 25, 2022 by canarybubbles

[Petriix 2,857]

4 hours ago, Well b back said:

Living in Birmingham we were with the Villa part of the family yesterday. When at Villa they told me he was criticised for one thing, being to attacking.

Ironically enough I'd actually agree. The fundamental issue with 4-3-3 is that the two wide attackers are basically up level with your main striker and, consequently, unable to form a reliable part of the defensive structure; especially in defensive transitions. I'd say we've conceded a lot of goals as a result of not having a reliable defensive block due to the overly attacking basis of Smith's tactics.

The irony being that the players attempt to adapt by reining in their attacking instincts but lack the awareness/positional discipline/practiced defensive behaviors to defend effectively so we end up failing in both attack and defence. 

[chicken 2,680]

On 24/12/2022 at 10:06, sonyc said:

I've pondered over Smith's comments a few times this last week (it's been a quiet week 😅) and this word "narrative" just stands out as an outlier to me, a word I just don't think he would use ordinarily. He speaks (usually) in very plain terms and it rarely varies, watching him reply in post match interviews. 

My belief therefore is that the word 'narrative' is a received one. And I'm sure everyone will know the source. It's from the box of management speak isn't it? Like 'journey' is used a lot more. Every important person is on one. "Ignore the noise" is another phrase. Deano has been speaking with Stuart. Stuart has told him with his serious head on, that some fans will always be negative and that they haven't got over Daniel Farke yet. The narrative has been written by Stuart Webber. And the coach has used it.

It's often the way with players post match. They say stuff the manager has just said in the dressing room. 

In terms of our play though I think we might all ponder for a long time to discover what narratives are playing out. Though the OP has tried to determine them gamely. I don't think DS knows exactly what his narrative is. Probably, like Neil Warnock once said, he simply wants to win games. I think DS has that simplistic view (and by the way it's fine by me). It has and hasn't worked!

And for me, if there is a 'narrative' it's that our players have the potential to be a strong team but they don't know how. Only in moments have they found cohesion. 

I think Dean should leave comments like narratives to others. It doesn't suit him. Stuart's inner narrative is the man who conquers Everest. Norwich City is now far too low down for the likes of him.

Actually, Smith has hinted at this before, so whilst not used the term "narrative" he has certainly said that some fans won't like him and his job is to ignore that.

As for Webber, I am pretty sure that he is just like any senior conservatives at the moment, burying their head in their hands as their elected head man can barely utter a few words without putting them in it.

Smith's "narrative" comment is about as well advised as Sunak serving breakfast to a homeless man whilst asking him "Are you in business then?" Before realising he'd just turned a 20mph pootle into a several car pile up and attempting to rescue it by cutting the chap off with "Would you like some fruit?".

If there was any management speak it would be, "ignore the noise" - eg; if they ask you about the fans, just say something like "as managers, we expect that if the results don't go our way, I'll make sure the lads keep focused and we're now thinking about the next game."

If you think he was actually coached to say that, Webber really must be stupid, as is Smith.

[chicken 2,680]

5 hours ago, Petriix said:

Ironically enough I'd actually agree. The fundamental issue with 4-3-3 is that the two wide attackers are basically up level with your main striker and, consequently, unable to form a reliable part of the defensive structure; especially in defensive transitions. I'd say we've conceded a lot of goals as a result of not having a reliable defensive block due to the overly attacking basis of Smith's tactics.

The irony being that the players attempt to adapt by reining in their attacking instincts but lack the awareness/positional discipline/practiced defensive behaviors to defend effectively so we end up failing in both attack and defence. 

100%.

I've seen it tried a lot by various managers at Norwich and 3-4-3 or 4-3-3 never seems to work because you are surrendering width somewhere. Against an energetic high press you lose players in midfield to pass through the press. You then always seem to be vulnerable to a quick switch or overloading on one wing.

I remember seeing Lambert try three at the back, I can't remember the game, we were 2-0 down at half time I think. He changed it and I want to say we came back to draw.

The best solution really does seem to be to play a 4-2-3-1 with the double pivot. It give you two players holding to help plug defensive gaps that appear when you need to get back. It allows the full backs to push on a bit when we have the ball. More importantly, it appears to have suited the squad that we have had up until the start of last season when that formation was ditched.

I'd love to see the stats for when that formation was deployed in the last two seasons. I think I am right in saying Farke returned to it Vs Brentford which is the one game we won under him. 

[sonyc 5,541]

26 minutes ago, chicken said:

If you think he was actually coached to say that, Webber really must be stupid, as is Smith.

Not coached exactly....but management (senior to junior, through the system) often tends to have an influence. Especially in the use of language. I can just  hear Webber's voice and using words like that to Smith.

Agree with you re. the Sunak analogy - it was ill- advised. If he was being advised in a constructive way he might simply align himself with the fans and their experience. So many things actually he could have said. He might even have looked back at a few Farke interviews. He managed to take the right line most of the time. Actually, so did Neil.

It's more unusual to have a response more akin to Roeder. Some managers just seem to have an affinity to a club. Adams, Neil (of course DF) in more recent times. Smith just has an air about him that it's a job. Of course it is 'a job'. And having affinity also doesn't always equate to winning team. But it helps in the relationship. The relationship with the customer. And we hear being close to the community is an "infinite purpose" for the club.

Wonder how the away fans might feel tomorrow? It will be interesting if Dean feels the same after his other recent comment post match. Have to hope the lads have some festive fight left in them.

Edited December 25, 2022 by sonyc

[chicken 2,680]

2 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Not coached exactly....but management (senior to junior, through the system) often tends to have an influence. Especially in the use of language. I can just  hear Webber's voice and using words like that to Smith.

Agree with you re. the Sunak analogy - it was ill- advised. If he was being advised in a constructive way he might simply align himself with the fans and their experience. So many things actually he could have said. He might even have looked back at a few Farke interviews. He managed to take the right line most of the time. Actually, so did Neil.

It's more unusual to have a response more akin to Roeder. Some managers just seem to have an affinity to a club. Adams, Neil (of course DF) in more recent times. Smith just has an air about him that it's a job. Of course it is 'a job'. And having affinity also doesn't always equate to winning team. But it helps in the relationship. The relationship with the customer. And we hear being close to the community is an "infinite purpose". 

Wonder how the away fans might feel tomorrow? It will be interesting if Dean feels the same after his other recent comment post match. Have to hope the lads have some festive fight left in them.

I think it's worth of note that you can have both an affinity and an understanding it is a job.

Farke often would say the fans are the most important thing because they would be here when he and the players had gone. And he would always be relatively honest about how that end might come about.

Another better example was probably Lambert. I think we all knew that he saw us as a career stepping stone. I think we hoped he'd stay on another season to show he could land a better job than Villa, which wasn't as huge a step up as he was capable of at the time - at least that's what a lot of fans seemed to think.

It's a careful balance and sometimes, somewhat of an illusion. Farke did exactly what Klopp does. Either it's the German system and how it puts fans first so managers coming from there tend to be more engaging in that way, or it's just Dortmund.

I don't think Smith has ever been that great a talker, he has a decent sense of humour, but I'm not sure he takes the critical line of questioning particularly well. One has to also remember he is management... so he will know terms like "narrative".

I also don't think it is wrong to call it a "narrative" either, and I think it is short sighted to think he is just referring to this season. I do think some folks have been hell bent against him since his appointment because, simply, he isn't a manager who was on people's minds. The same people have down-played his achievements elsewhere to try and defend their "narrative".

However, it is always ill advised to go into any depth about it because it never does any good. You aren't going to convinced those people that they are wrong, they go away when you get more results and everyone else is enjoying those results and their negativity is drowned out with success.

Which is where we get back to the problem. He cannot get this team to be consistent and without consistency, you tend not to get repeated success and therefore the euphoria that drowns out the other voices.

Just the same as you never saw/heard Mills/Simon Jordan/O'Hara (who certainly fed a "narrative" last season) criticising us in either of our promotion campaigns.

No. Smith has been consistent in his responses to criticism or critical questions in post match games, especially those we don't win. It's not that surprising he has said the comments he has, he's eluded to it before. The only connection to Webber is that I can imagine that after "bedsheet gate" last season, Webber probably does feel "some", though a minority, of fans are ignorant and will create narratives to justify their angst, aggression and in that instance, threatened violence. Smith was at the club then, and talk would have been had around it then. I don't think it's teaching anyone anything, it doesn't feel like regurgitation, it feels like progression of a feeling from Smith.

IMHO, that's why he should go now. If it's got to the point where his belief is that a section of the fans will be against him no matter what he does, where does that put him? He either believes he can win them over and bring them back behind the team or he's pretty much admitted he has lost a section of the support. In which case, those comments are damning.