Women’s World Cup

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,788]

7 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

That's because you don't pay enough attention;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/22043794

That was when Yankey overtook Shilton, but Fara Williams has now gone past both of them.

Back then, facts didn't seem to offend people as much as they do today, so I doubt anyone had much of a cry about it on poor old Peter Shilton's behalf.

And thats no less ridiculous than a combined al time goals list

A combined all time england top scorers list has never and doesnt exist...its not a record

..no more so than as previously mentioned ..a combined gender all time 100m sprint record exists

2 completely different disciplines, simple as that

Edited July 16, 2022 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[canarydan23 4,060]

8 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

And thats no less ridiculous than a combined al time goals list

A combined all time england top scorers list has never and doesnt exist...its not a record

..no more so than as previously mentioned ..a combined gender all time 100m sprint record exists

2 completely different disciplines, simple as that

Just because you don't like something, it can still exist. And you should be very grateful that's the case.

Facts matter more than your feelings I'm afraid.

Fara Williams has more England caps than anyone else.

Ellen White has scored more England goals than anyone else bar Wayne Rooney.

I hope you can cope when she scores another.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,788]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Just because you don't like something, it can still exist. And you should be very grateful that's the case.

Facts matter more than your feelings I'm afraid.

Fara Williams has more England caps than anyone else.

Ellen White has scored more England goals than anyone else bar Wayne Rooney.

I hope you can cope when she scores another.

Williams has more womens england caps than any other womens england player

Likewise White with goals and other womens football players.

Hope that distinction helps.

I wonder who's goals record Harry Kane is focusing on chasing down?...Rooney's or Ellen White?

Stop making records up that dont exist

Edited July 16, 2022 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Williams has more womens england caps than any other womens england player

Likewise White with goals and other womens football players.

Hope that distinction helps.

I wonder who's goals record Harry Kane is focusing on chasing down?...Rooney's or Ellen White?

He'll probably like both, but I'd imagine beating Rooney would be his primary objective, as I'm sure you'd agree.

It doesn't change the fact that Fara Williams has more England caps than anyone else and White has more goals than anyone bar Rooney, does it? They are objective facts. You need to contemplate why that truth bothers you so much.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,788]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

He'll probably like both, but I'd imagine beating Rooney would be his primary objective, as I'm sure you'd agree.

It doesn't change the fact that Fara Williams has more England caps than anyone else and White has more goals than anyone bar Rooney, does it? They are objective facts. You need to contemplate why that truth bothers you so much.

Because it isnt the truth...theyre 2 different disciplines with a different set of records and stats

A nuance you seem bitterly unable to grasp

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Because it isnt the truth...theyre 2 different disciplines with a different set of records and stats

A nuance you seem bitterly unable to grasp

I can grasp it, but it doesn't alter the accuracy of what I'm saying.

It's simple. Which person has the most England caps? Which England footballers have scored the most senior international goals?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,788]

Both?....Kane I'd imagine isnt giving  Ellen White's record a second thought.

Its hardly as if theyre playing against the same opposition 

Its almost as if theyre 2 completely teams and whos records bear no correlation to each other

Edited July 16, 2022 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,333]

I mean, if it's right.....    Where is she? 

[Mason 47 1,388]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

He'll probably like both, but I'd imagine beating Rooney would be his primary objective, as I'm sure you'd agree.

It doesn't change the fact that Fara Williams has more England caps than anyone else and White has more goals than anyone bar Rooney, does it? They are objective facts. You need to contemplate why that truth bothers you so much.

They're a semantic manipulation of objective facts.

To use your own example of tennis earlier, you don't get this back-and-forth because it's just calmly accepted that men and womens tennis are different. They're deserving of their accolades in their own right.

In football for some reason you have this desperation to make it look like both genders experience is identical and should be judged as such. I imagine this is because its the 'bloke' sport and seen as the great equaliser 

Ellen White has the most goals for the England womens team. If it was just the single multi-gender team she would have 0 because she wouldn't be in the top 50 options for England striker. The men and womens sides are completely different conditions.

Denying that there's a difference doesn't make you a woke hero, it just makes you ignorant.

[canarydan23 4,060]

Who's denying there is a difference?

I'll ask again;

Which person has the most England caps? Which England footballers have scored the most senior international goals?

@Mason 47 @GodlyOtsemobor @GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary come on, it's an easy one to answer.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,333]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Who's denying there is a difference?

I'll ask again;

Which person has the most England caps? Which England footballers have scored the most senior international goals?

@Mason 47 @GodlyOtsemobor @GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary come on, it's an easy one to answer.

Yes it is...... Rooney 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,788]

Its Shilton and Rooney

AND

Williams and White

Because theyre 2 completely seperate teams with their own stats and records

I feel sorry for Kane the next time Englands womens team beat Latvia women 20-0 and Ellen White scores 10

He's never going to get that 'record'

[canarydan23 4,060]

3 minutes ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Yes it is...... Rooney 

Half right. There's someone else who has scored as many England goals as Rooney. Don't feel bad if you don't know, it looks like there are people who make late 90s looking websites struggle with it to.

You didn't answer the first question either.

Must do better.

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Its Shilton and Rooney

AND

Williams and White

Because theyre 2 completely seperate teams with their own stats and records

I feel sorry for Kane the next time Englands womens team beat Latvia women 20-0 and Ellen White scores 10

He's never going to get that 'record'

I didn't say man or woman, I said person and footballer, so Shilton isn't even in the picture.

Come on guys, I've a 5 year old who can grasp this.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,333]

A 5 year old would also understand the concept of it being two separate entities and they can't compete in the same competitions as the other so the correct answer is 

Men's team: shilton and Rooney 

Women's team: Williams and white 

 

Or should i expect Usain bolts name to be next to the WR the next time the women compete at the Olympics. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

21 minutes ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

A 5 year old would also understand the concept of it being two separate entities and they can't compete in the same competitions as the other so the correct answer is 

Men's team: shilton and Rooney 

Women's team: Williams and white 

 

Or should i expect Usain bolts name to be next to the WR the next time the women compete at the Olympics. 

That's not the correct answer, I said person and footballers.

Baffling why you refuse to answer the question properly when we all know what the answer is.

[Mason 47 1,388]

9 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Who's denying there is a difference?

I'll ask again;

Which person has the most England caps? Which England footballers have scored the most senior international goals?

@Mason 47 @GodlyOtsemobor @GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary come on, it's an easy one to grasp

You deny that there is a difference by arguing from this 'which person has the most X' perspective. There is no 'person football league', because it would be completely unbalanced and meaningless.

The meaning of life is found in the boundaries and differences you come to, and how you deal with them. As said above, where would be the real meaning in Kane trying to chase 'the person top scorer for England' accolade, if Ellen White plays in a much less balanced discipline where she plays against much worse opposition regularly?

Unless the challenges faced are the same, you can't combine stats for any meaning. 

Then again, given how tightly you're now hanging on to the words 'objectively and 'person', I can now see you're just trolling to get a reaction. Don't usually fall for that 🙃

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,333]

5 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

That's not the correct answer, I said person and footballers.

Baffling why you refuse to answer the question properly when we all know what the answer is.

Ok the footballers who have the most caps and goals are... 

Men's team shilton and Rooney 

Women's team Williams and white. 

 

There you go 4 footballers with the records for their own teams in their own disciplines. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by GodlyOtsemobor

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

You deny that there is a difference by arguing from this 'which person has the most X' perspective. There is no 'person football league', because it would be completely unbalanced and meaningless.

The meaning of life is found in the boundaries and differences you come to, and how you deal with them. As said above, where would be the real meaning in Kane trying to chase 'the person top scorer for England' accolade, if Ellen White plays in a much less balanced discipline where she plays against much worse opposition regularly?

Unless the challenges faced are the same, you can't combine stats for any meaning. 

Then again, given how tightly you're now hanging on to the words 'objectively and 'person', I can now see you're just trolling to get a reaction. Don't usually fall for that 🙃

Interesting, I genuinely thought you were here for the trolling when you dropped your back garden analogy.

I'm here to make a point that some men find it insanely (and it is insane) difficult to acknowledge women's achievements without a "but men" response. I also enjoy taking on the Knights Templar of the Patriarchy as they struggle to deal with the brave new world. That's not something I'm particularly proud of, but we can't help how we react things.

I mean, look at @GodlyOtsemobor, the twists he'll do to avoid giving the right answer to the question "Which person has the most England caps?". The answer is Fara Williams, that's it, no caveats needed, but he seems physically incapable of answering thus. Even searching the internet for an eye-hurting website to try and justify not answering correctly. Despite the fact that saying Fara Williams is the person with the most England caps doesn't diminish Shilton's record of being the man with the most caps.

For sure, there is context; Fara Williams, as a woman, had more opportunity to play for England than men do just by nature of the fact that they play more international fixtures.

Likewise with the goalscorer thing, but what I do find hilarious among your ilk is that you'll scream, "BuT tHe WoMeN bEaT lAtViA 20-0", a game in which Ellen White scored 3, and yet are either completely oblivious or happy to ignore the fact that Rooney's record includes five goals acquired in four games against the mighty San Marino (one of which happened to be an 8-0). Another 5 came from the footballing leviathans of Kazakhstan, Andorra and Liechtenstein.

Yes, there are men's records and there are women's records. But it will be a fact that when Ellen White scores her next England goal, she will have scored more England goals than any other person. Just like it's a fact that Fara Williams has more England caps than other person.

Why is it so hard for you guys to admit that?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

Just because you don't like something, it can still exist. And you should be very grateful that's the case.

Facts matter more than your feelings I'm afraid.

Fara Williams has more England caps than anyone else.

Ellen White has scored more England goals than anyone else bar Wayne Rooney.

I hope you can cope when she scores another.

So by that logic, should all athletics records be simply merged for men and women? That would essentially mean wiping out almost all women's records in athletics as an irrelevance. . 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So by that logic, should all athletics records be simply merged for men and women? That would essentially mean wiping out almost all women's records in athletics as an irrelevance. . 

 

Is the record for dumbest strawman sex-specific or merged?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Is the record for dumbest strawman sex-specific or merged?

That's not a straw man, that's a logical extension of the principle to another sporting discipline. You really do need to go back to school, don't you?

A straw man would be to argue against something you hadn't actually said, as opposed to what I did, which was ask you a question expanding on your original concept. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarydan23 4,060]

5 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Yes, there are men's records and there are women's records.

Back to school? Like, where they teach you to read?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

Who's denying there is a difference?

I'll ask again;

Which person has the most England caps? Which England footballers have scored the most senior international goals?

@Mason 47 @GodlyOtsemobor @GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary come on, it's an easy one to answer.

I read this, where you were talking about the person with the most caps. I'd missed that you'd started backtracking on that though, so I'm glad you realise that your concept was flawed. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

5 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Erm, they are. Rooney is the leading England Men's goalscorer, White is the leading England women's goalscorer. 

When Ellen White scores again, she will have the record for most senior goals in an England shirt.

These are facts. You don't have to like them, but it doesn't change the fact that they are true.

Backtracking from what? This, the same point I've been making right from the start?

Is there any surer confirmation that you're right about something than @littleyellowbirdie disagreeing with you?

[Mason 47 1,388]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Interesting, I genuinely thought you were here for the trolling when you dropped your back garden analogy.

I'm here to make a point that some men find it insanely (and it is insane) difficult to acknowledge women's achievements without a "but men" response. 

In my defence I was very good in my garden. Many a shout of Gerraaaaaard 😉

Second paragraph is what I can't reconcile. Is this not exactly what you are doing? Ellen Whites record isn't being taken for the achievement it is within her disicpline, but is also being pushed into the arena of men's football to emphasise how its even better?

Men and women can't compete on the same stage. Their challenges and advantages aren't shared, the arena doesn't exist. To me that makes the distinction as 'highest scoring person' non existent.

Fwiw I don't really pay attention to any football outside of Norwich Mens First Team because I'm not interested, and if women's football is growing then fab, more power to 'em. I just feel the endless homogenization in society at the moment is a bit OTT

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Backtracking from what? This, the same point I've been making right from the start?

Is there any surer confirmation that you're right about something than @littleyellowbirdie disagreeing with you?

There's a lot more than just me disagreeing with you by the looks of it, with good reason. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, Mason 47 said:

I just feel the endless homogenization in society at the moment is a bit OTT

It's a legitimate argument, but acknowledging that Ellen White is a goal away from scoring more England goals than anyone else isn't an example of that. It's just an acknowledgement of a fact. There's not prize, she doesn't get a trophy, Rooney doesn't lose out on anything.

It's bizarre that it's got people howling.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There's a lot more than just me disagreeing with you by the looks of it, with good reason. 

Disagreeing with me about what?

That Fara Williams has more England caps than anyone else?
That Ellen White is one goal from having scored more England goals than anyone else?

What's to disagree with?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

It's a legitimate argument, but acknowledging that Ellen White is a goal away from scoring more England goals than anyone else isn't an example of that. It's just an acknowledgement of a fact. There's not prize, she doesn't get a trophy, Rooney doesn't lose out on anything.

It's bizarre that it's got people howling.

They're not howling about it; they're just pointing out that comparing stats between genders when the genders are segregated is stupid.