Where did it all go wrong Daniel, Stuart, Delia?

[king canary 7,609]

28 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I agree. Classic playbook (for Webber at least) to make out that the player wanted to leave to justify a sale he knows won't go down well with the fans. I suspect agents tell him all the time that a player is interested in a move. He actually said it came from Emi's agent rather than Emi himself. What agent is going to say their player isn't interested in a move they are going to earn commision from. Doesn;t mean the player is going to force the clubs hand if they don't get it or cannot be won over by an improved contract offer. We were hawking around our crown jewells from an early stage last summer in order to fund our ultimately calamitous foray into the transfer market.

Amazes me how many of our fans bought the story previously that Johnny Howson, a consumate professional, was suddenly kicking off and refusing to train in order to force a move. I would wager that we offered him a fairly poor contract and then when his agent indicated they wouldn;t sign it put the stories out that he wanted a move away, hadn't signed a contract and therefore we had no choice but to sell him. 

I would add it isn't just the Webber playbook- most clubs in our position will use a bit of spin to try and keep the fans onside.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

21 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I agree. Classic playbook (for Webber at least) to make out that the player wanted to leave to justify a sale he knows won't go down well with the fans. I suspect agents tell him all the time that a player is interested in a move. He actually said it came from Emi's agent rather than Emi himself. What agent is going to say their player isn't interested in a move they are going to earn commision from. Doesn;t mean the player is going to force the clubs hand if they don't get it or cannot be won over by an improved contract offer. We were hawking around our crown jewells from an early stage last summer in order to fund our ultimately calamitous foray into the transfer market.

Amazes me how many of our fans bought the story previously that Johnny Howson, a consumate professional, was suddenly kicking off and refusing to train in order to force a move. I would wager that we offered him a fairly poor contract and then when his agent indicated they wouldn;t sign it put the stories out that he wanted a move away, hadn't signed a contract and therefore we had no choice but to sell him. 

The argument is getting moved here by degrees to a point I don’t buy,

I can believe there was a gentleman’s agreement to let him leave. I can believe there wasn’t. I can believe that even if there was then it could have been broken.

I can believe we could under any circumstances have forced Buendia to stay, risking him in effect downing tools and/or destabilizing the squad. I can believe that he might alternatively have given his all.

What I don’t believe is that this was just an agent touting his player around and that Buendia wanted to stay or at the least was happy enough to do so. The one thing that seems clear is that Buendia was very keen to move to what he regarded as a bigger club, and one that wouldn’t be in another relegation fight.

That we might have been happy to let him go to use the money to bulk up the squad doesn’t mean he had not tried to force our hand anyway.

[Monty13 2,235]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

 

Perhaps it is a case that it is a trick you can only get away with once per player/career.

I don’t think that’s true, maybe if promises were made but the suggestion now seems to be they weren’t. 

Especially as the circumstances changed. There’s a big difference in two summers having to hold a PL quality player in the championship as opposed to gaining promotion.

[BigFish 1,988]

2 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I don’t think that’s true, maybe if promises were made but the suggestion now seems to be they weren’t. 

Especially as the circumstances changed. There’s a big difference in two summers having to hold a PL quality player in the championship as opposed to gaining promotion.

Maybe not.

All the suggestions are supposition though, not really added anything to a debate that posters have been having all season. As @Parma Ham's gone mouldy wrote promises made don't necessarily have to be kept.

[Monty13 2,235]

8 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Maybe not.

All the suggestions are supposition though, not really added anything to a debate that posters have been having all season. As @Parma Ham's gone mouldy wrote promises made don't necessarily have to be kept.

And I agree with him, Buendia was on a decent length contract. He may have desired a move and even asked for one, but he didn’t have to be sold despite what some suggest, it was a choice.

I don’t believe for a second if we refused to sanction a move that Buendia would have spent an entire season of PL exposure with the chance for national team caps sulking personally. Especially as playing well would almost guarantee him the move he wanted the following summer regardless of what happened to Norwich. Makes no logical sense.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Monty13

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

5 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

And I agree with him, Buendia was on a decent length contract. He may have desired a move and even asked for one, but he didn’t have to be sold despite what some suggest, it was a choice.

I don’t believe for a second if we refused to sanction a move that Buendia would have spent an entire season of PL exposure with the chance for national team caps sulking personally. Especially as playing well would almost guarantee him the move he wanted the following summer regardless of what happened to Norwich. Makes no logical sense.

Monty, footballers don’t always do what’s logical and best for their career! I have no idea about Cantwell but on the face of it he has hardly helped his career, even if there are private matters one does not know about. Balotelli for another example!

[Monty13 2,235]

Just now, PurpleCanary said:

Monty, footballers don’t always do what’s logical and best for their career! I have no idea about Cantwell but on the face of it he has hardly helped his career, even if there are private matters one does not know about. Balotelli for another example!

They may not initially, but I can’t think of a player denied a move that then didn’t return to play that season personally.

I’m sure if he was desperate to move and tried all the tricks to force it there may have been a standoff at the start of the season.
 

But IMO that’s the worse case scenario, because once the window slams shut downing tools gets you nowhere and hurts your reputation and career.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

44 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

And I agree with him, Buendia was on a decent length contract. He may have desired a move and even asked for one, but he didn’t have to be sold despite what some suggest, it was a choice.

I don’t believe for a second if we refused to sanction a move that Buendia would have spent an entire season of PL exposure with the chance for national team caps sulking personally. Especially as playing well would almost guarantee him the move he wanted the following summer regardless of what happened to Norwich. Makes no logical sense.

Buendia's temperament was such that if he wanted to move and didn't get it, then he'd play like you would wish that you'd let him move; if he wanted out then cashing in was the only choice. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Monty13 2,235]

12 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Buendia's temperament was such that if he wanted to move and didn't get it, then he'd play like you would wish that you'd let him move; if he wanted out then cashing in was the only choice. 

Again such certainty, with what evidence?

I can’t think of a single player that was a regular starter and has tried to engineer a move from their club that when it was denied wasn’t back and playing within a matter of weeks of the window closing. Happy to at least hear some examples.

The idea that Buendia would sabotage his short term prospects, his international chances, his premier league reputation and his wages to become a less attractive asset for the type of club he was angling for a move too makes no sense to me.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

4 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Again such certainty, with what evidence?

I can’t think of a single player that was a regular starter and has tried to engineer a move from their club that when it was denied wasn’t back and playing within a matter of weeks of the window closing. Happy to at least hear some examples.

The idea that Buendia would sabotage his short term prospects, his international chances, his premier league reputation and his wages to become a less attractive asset for the type of club he was angling for a move too makes no sense to me.

It's a judgement based on the evidence that he was a demonstrably emotionally led character that I'm positive would throw his toys out of the pram if he didn't get his way; you  state with a lot of certainty that it was a choice, but you know as well as I do that Webber, Farke and everybody else involved in the club knew what a key player Buendia was, and we know for a fact that Buendia did want to leave, so where's your evidence that the decision to sell was anything other than making the best of a Hobson's choice?

Edited May 4, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Monty13 2,235]

37 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's a judgement based on the evidence that he was a demonstrably emotionally led character that I'm positive would throw his toys out of the pram if he didn't get his way; you  state with a lot of certainty that it was a choice, but you know as well as I do that Webber, Farke and everybody else involved in the club knew what a key player Buendia was, and we know for a fact that Buendia did want to leave, so where's your evidence that the decision to sell was anything other than making the best of a Hobson's choice?

Because a Hobson’s choice infers if we kept him he wouldn’t have played a game for us this season. 

Like I said I personally can’t think of a single regular player where that’s ever been the case.

I’m not suggesting there would not have been “toys out of the pram”, just that there’s no precedent I’m aware of for this ending up with a player downing tools for a season or any evidence any player, or Buendia specifically, would do that.

Happy to hear the evidence rather than just more doubling down on a certainty this would happen with no evidence.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

4 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Because a Hobson’s choice infers if we kept him he wouldn’t have played a game for us this season. 

Like I said I personally can’t think of a single regular player where that’s ever been the case.

I’m not suggesting there would not have been “toys out of the pram”, just that there’s no precedent I’m aware of for this ending up with a player downing tools for a season or any evidence any player, or Buendia specifically, would do that.

Happy to hear the evidence rather than just more doubling down on a certainty this would happen with no evidence.

https://www.football365.com/news/top-10-players-who-went-on-strike-to-force-a-transfer-sterling-berbatov-schneiderlin-tevez-van-dijk

Here are 10 examples of players who have downed tools to force a move. 

[Monty13 2,235]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

https://www.football365.com/news/top-10-players-who-went-on-strike-to-force-a-transfer-sterling-berbatov-schneiderlin-tevez-van-dijk

Here are 10 examples of players who have downed tools to force a move. 

Did you read the article? How many that didn’t get their move weren’t playing for the team that season?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

5 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Did you read the article? How many that didn’t get their move weren’t playing for the team that season?

It's evidence of what you said you wanted evidence for; don't try and move the goal posts. 

Players in demand that want a move can and do make life difficult for their current clubs to achieve it. Plenty of 'evidence' of this. 

Buendia had just been called up for Argentina, had clubs knocking on his door, and no doubt his agent was stirring him up. Only an idiot would dream of keeping him if he wanted out. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Monty13 2,235]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's evidence of what you said you wanted evidence for; don't try and move the goal posts. 

Players in demand that want a move can and do make life difficult for their current clubs to achieve it. Plenty of 'evidence' of this. 

Buendia had just been called up for Argentina, had clubs knocking on his door, and no doubt his agent was stirring him up. Only an idiot would dream of keeping him if he wanted out. 

No I very clearly said players who didn’t get their moves who didn’t then play for their club.

“I can’t think of a single player that was a regular starter and has tried to engineer a move from their club that when it was denied wasn’t back and playing within a matter of weeks of the window closing. Happy to at least hear some examples.”

I’m not the one moving goalposts.

I’ve never once suggested Buendia wouldn’t have made things difficult to try to engineer a move.

[king canary 7,609]

2 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Did you read the article? How many that didn’t get their move weren’t playing for the team that season?

Exactly. The closest is maybe Tevez and even that ended after a few months and he saw out his contract, after his behaviour made finding a club to sign him near impossible. 

Emi may have been difficult, thrown his toys out and even refused to train but I'd wager it wouldn't have lasted past the end of the window as their is no incentive for a player to tank their value and their reputation by not playing for months at a time.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

2 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I don’t believe for a second if we refused to sanction a move that Buendia would have spent an entire season of PL exposure with the chance for national team caps sulking personally. Especially as playing well would almost guarantee him the move he wanted the following summer regardless of what happened to Norwich. Makes no logical sense.

Rewinding a bit to your own assertion, that's your belief that you have absolutely no 'evidence' to support. 

On the other hand, my belief is based on the supposition that Daniel Farke and Webber will both have been fully aware that keeping Buendia was very desirable if possible, so the notion that they would have let him go if they felt they had a reasonable choice is just nonsense. 

[Monty13 2,235]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Rewinding a bit to your own assertion, that's your belief that you have absolutely no 'evidence' to support. 

On the other hand, my belief is based on the supposition that Daniel Farke and Webber will both have been fully aware that keeping Buendia was very desirable if possible, so the notion that they would have let him go if they felt they had a reasonable choice is just nonsense. 

Appears I have to keep repeating myself but my assertion is based on the fact I can’t think of a single player in the last 20 years who on not being given a move has then refused to ever play for the club and in fact hasn’t been playing again that season within a matter of weeks.

Thats my evidence. When moves have been refused as far as Im aware every player has returned to playing for that club. Like I said, happy to hear evidence to the contrary, I just can’t think of any.

[king canary 7,609]

7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Rewinding a bit to your own assertion, that's your belief that you have absolutely no 'evidence' to support. 

On the other hand, my belief is based on the supposition that Daniel Farke and Webber will both have been fully aware that keeping Buendia was very desirable if possible, so the notion that they would have let him go if they felt they had a reasonable choice is just nonsense. 

Christ the irony in this post is off the charts.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

Just now, Monty13 said:

Appears I have to keep repeating myself but my assertion is based on the fact I can’t think of a single player in the last 20 years who on not being given a move has then refused to ever play for the club and in fact hasn’t been playing again that season within a matter of weeks.

Thats my evidence. When moves have been refused as far as Im aware every player has returned to playing for that club. Like I said, happy to hear evidence to the contrary, I just can’t think of any.

"Ever" is a big statement. Fact is that all of those that have downed tools have disrupted the internal workings of the club. You might be able to do that in clubs like Real Madrid that are full of Prima Donna's anyway, but for us having the whole team pulling in the same direction is key; you can't have that sort of dispute sapping morale where we are. 

[Monty13 2,235]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

"Ever" is a big statement. Fact is that all of those that have downed tools have disrupted the internal workings of the club. You might be able to do that in clubs like Real Madrid that are full of Prima Donna's anyway, but for us having the whole team pulling in the same direction is key; you can't have that sort of dispute sapping morale where we are. 

What was that about moving goalposts?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

46 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Because a Hobson’s choice infers if we kept him he wouldn’t have played a game for us this season. 

Like I said I personally can’t think of a single regular player where that’s ever been the case.

I’m not suggesting there would not have been “toys out of the pram”, just that there’s no precedent I’m aware of for this ending up with a player downing tools for a season or any evidence any player, or Buendia specifically, would do that.

Happy to hear the evidence rather than just more doubling down on a certainty this would happen with no evidence.

 

10 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Appears I have to keep repeating myself but my assertion is based on the fact I can’t think of a single player in the last 20 years who on not being given a move has then refused to ever play for the club and in fact hasn’t been playing again that season within a matter of weeks.

Thats my evidence. When moves have been refused as far as Im aware every player has returned to playing for that club. Like I said, happy to hear evidence to the contrary, I just can’t think of any.

What was that you were saying about moving goalposts (even if setting the bar for a whole season wasn't a stupidly high criterium in the first place)?

Edited May 4, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Monty13 2,235]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

What was that you were saying about moving goalposts (even if setting the bar for a whole season wasn't a stupidly high criterium in the first place). 

And yet returning to play that season was the bar I’d set in my initial post you decided to argue with. I also clarified in the bit you’d quoted I meant then returning within a few weeks of the window closing.

Also if you read what you’ve quoted I was talking about the player saying they refuse to ever play for the club. I wasn’t setting the bar at whether they ever played for the club again 😂

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

And yet returning to play that season was the bar I’d set in my initial post you decided to argue with. I also clarified in the bit you’d quoted I meant then returning within a few weeks of the window closing.

Also if you read what you’ve quoted I was talking about the player saying they refuse to ever play for the club. I wasn’t setting the bar at whether they ever played for the club again 😂

In the case of the examples I gave, most of them got their wish by kicking up a fuss. Nobody would let a dispute like that drag on a whole season. Like I said, a stupid criterium in the first place, which is largely why I dismissed it initially in seeking examples, not realising you actually were that stupid. My mistake.