Cantwell's Hair

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

7 minutes ago, Michael Wynless Jones said:

Jermaine Defoe is actually a good example right now, as he came out and said he wants a managerial or coaching position because he is good enough and has worked hard to gain the correct qualifications (Dwight Yorke take note).

I personally think we'll start seeing more and more BAME people in management over the next decade or so, purely because there are currently a lot more BAME players, and most coaches/managers come from a playing background, so when the current crop were playing there was not as higher representation from these groups and as such hasn't manifested into coaching roles just yet.

Jermaine Defoe has always seemed very bright and decent and definitely has footballing intelligence, hope he gets a gig. 

Dwight Yorke spent years as a playboy and party animal and I can't imagine he ever planned to be a manager when a player, suddenly wants to be one now he is skint.

Sol Campbell's problem I think was that he expected to walk straight into a good job, I mean granted Lampard and Gerrard did but then you get people like Martin O'Neill who started in non-League, and Paul Lambert took the Livingstone job, both really successful as players. There was a strong sense of entitlement from Campbell. Glad he woke up and had a go at the lower leagues.

Edited July 12, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[king canary 7,606]

2 minutes ago, Michael Wynless Jones said:

Jermaine Defoe is actually a good example right now, as he came out and said he wants a managerial or coaching position because he is good enough and has worked hard to gain the correct qualifications (Dwight Yorke take note).

I personally think we'll start seeing more and more BAME people in management over the next decade or so, purely because there are currently a lot more BAME players, and most coaches/managers come from a playing background, so when the current crop were playing there was not as higher representation from these groups and as such hasn't manifested into coaching roles just yet.

I think you're right about that- will be interesting to see whether the likes of Kolo Toure (coaching at Leicester) or Eddie Newton (Chelsea) make the step up.

It is notable though that looking through the coaching staff of many Premier League teams you don't see many non white faces.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think you're right about that- will be interesting to see whether the likes of Kolo Toure (coaching at Leicester) or Eddie Newton (Chelsea) make the step up.

That does assume that they want to make the step up though, being a football manager is an incredibly stressful job and if you are sorted for life financially and feel that you achieved all you wanted as a player (Toure almost certainly can tick both of those boxes) you may decide that you don't want that level of scrutiny. Should imagine being a football manager under pressure puts a lot of strain on marriages and family life!  

[Michael Wynless Jones 161]

I can see Tettey going into coaching after he retires next season. I wouldn't be adverse to us putting him through his badges and giving him a start, should that be what he wants of course.

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

Just now, Michael Wynless Jones said:

I can see Tettey going into coaching after he retires next season. I wouldn't be adverse to us putting him through his badges and giving him a start, should that be what he wants of course.

If he does go into coaching it will be in Norway I would think 

[Uncle Fred 526]

6 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

If he does go into coaching it will be in Norway I would think 

Hilarious 

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I think there was a study done on it and there is some truth to it. Black players are often much more praised for their physicality than their skill or their mental attributes. I don't think Lee is saying that all commentators are openly racist, it is just more of an unconscious bias.

Ita definitely an issue in American Football where people were openly convinced for years that black quarterbacks couldn't succeed in the game as they didn't have what it takes "above the shoulders."

So I don't think its quite as silly as it sounds.

Good context here, thanks. Will take a look at that PFA study later.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

57 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

If he does go into coaching it will be in Norway I would think 

His wife wants them to return to Norway, Tettey had to persuade her to let him sign one more contract here.

He'll be gone in summer 2021 back to Norway.

 

[king canary 7,606]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

That does assume that they want to make the step up though, being a football manager is an incredibly stressful job and if you are sorted for life financially and feel that you achieved all you wanted as a player (Toure almost certainly can tick both of those boxes) you may decide that you don't want that level of scrutiny. Should imagine being a football manager under pressure puts a lot of strain on marriages and family life!  

Very true but the proportion of black players to the proportion of black coaches is pretty out of whack right now.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

Very true but the proportion of black players to the proportion of black coaches is pretty out of whack right now.

I think this is a cause-and-effect argument. Forty years ago, black players were systematically discriminated against, and as such signing a black player was seen as more of a 'risk'. As time went by, though, black players became commonplace, were accepted by everyone and as such a lot more black kids would have seen football as an attainable or desirable profession.

I think it would be fair to say that nowadays the colour of a player's skin has little bearing, if any at all, on their likelihood of being successful as a professional footballer.

However, as far as coaching goes, we're still three decades behind the curve. In the same way that boardrooms have been ridiculously underrepresented by women and BAME groups, it takes time for that paradigm shift to occur in the highest echelons, as traditionally that rarefied air is the province of the upper-class white male.

The agenda is late in arriving, but it seems to be gathering momentum. I would hope that within another 20 years, a far higher proportion of black players will see coaching as a natural next step, and clubs will keep working to break down the barriers of systemic and subconscious bias that have resulted in a disproportionately low percentage of BAME managers and head coaches.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Feedthewolf

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

I think this is a cause-and-effect argument. Forty years ago, black players were systematically discriminated against, and as such signing a black player was seen as more of a 'risk'.

That attitude still exists to some degree.

The West Ham head of transfers sacked a couple of years ago for stating that he didn't want to sign any African players (he said that to several agents).

Interestingly, when David Moyes was trying to save Henry's job he stated that they'd attempted to sign Ibrahim Amadou on loan in that same window.  

Edited July 12, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

7 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

That attitude still exists to some degree.

The West Ham head of transfers sacked a couple of years ago for stating that he didn't want to sign any African players (he said that to several agents).

Interestingly, when David Moyes was trying to save Henry's job he stated that they'd attempted to sign Ibrahim Amadou on loan in that same window.  

Sure, that's fair comment. But those kinds of attitudes (the West Ham guy) are increasingly rare, almost universally derided, and will rightly cost you your job. I would guess that black players are significantly overrepresented in professional football compared to the proportion of the population, which would indicate that football as a whole really doesn't tolerate racial discrimination.

For this concept to penetrate the boardroom will take time, and something similar to the 'Rooney rule' to accelerate that process would be useful.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

39 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Sure, that's fair comment. But those kinds of attitudes (the West Ham guy) are increasingly rare, almost universally derided, and will rightly cost you your job. I would guess that black players are significantly overrepresented in professional football compared to the proportion of the population, which would indicate that football as a whole really doesn't tolerate racial discrimination.

For this concept to penetrate the boardroom will take time, and something similar to the 'Rooney rule' to accelerate that process would be useful.

Worth noting as well that it was borderline as to whether it was strictly racist or not. 

He didn't say "black" players, I think he meant players that were actually born and schooled in Africa.

I know its dodgy ground trying to draw a distinction here, but I think it was because of cultural differences and related discipline problems that he'd had with previous African players rather than him being some sort of white supremacist. He could have applied the same concerns to signing players from South America (if work permit problems didn't put up a big barrier to that already) and that wouldn't have been racist due to some of those countries being very multi-cultural (Brazil for example),. 

Amadou, who he did try and sign, was raised in France from the age of 4. And I kind of understand where he was coming from. It wasn't the colour he had a problem with, it was his wariness of a complete difference in culture (particularly footballing).

So in his eyes Amadou was a European, Diafra Sakho who he'd had a problem with was practically an adult when moving to France was an African.

Another example, Drogba raised in France from 5 and he probably would have viewed him as being French not African, but El-Hadji Diouf was brought up in Senegal as part of the aristocracy. 

He was definitely guilty of being an idiot though, and of generalising / stereotyping and his words were only ever going to be perceived badly. Being risk averse would have been a big part of his job though and he would have been fearful of bringing in a complete live wire with discipline problems after just shifting a couple.  

Same applies to the risk of signing South American players I think, Buendia is pretty tame by their standards! Luis Suarez took a lot of taming, same with that Colombian bloke at Rangers.

Its cultural differences and more importantly differences in what you can get away with on the pitch, many red card challenge today in England were yellows in the 1990's and are perhaps still yellows or less in some parts of the world. Brazilian domestic football is completely insane sometimes, in some countries the refs are scared to give a card for fear of reprisals and matches make the Old Firm games look tame.

In some countries football is almost a combat sport and a match is a war, and in Europe its more of a chess match. 

At a club like West Ham who can go down any season they can't afford the time it takes to nuture and tame players or adapt their style to fit the European game,, they need them with the right temperament from day one. Liverpool can persevere with a Suarez and Rangers a Morales... getting it wrong isn't going to relegate them. 

I think Henry's point was that he couldn't afford to have to try and nuture an El-Hadji Diouf, but would happily have signed a Drogba (he wishes, but you get my point). He deserved the sack for communicating it the way he did though and should perhaps have not attempted to communicate that at all.

Edited July 12, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[hogesar 9,671]

Only on the PinkUn does a thread about Cantwells hairstyle, end with a mature, detailed conversation about Black players and managers opportunities and discrimination in football 🙂

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Only on the PinkUn does a thread about Cantwells hairstyle, end with a mature, detailed conversation about Black players and managers opportunities and discrimination in football 🙂

...via people calling each other c*nts and threatening to hit each other.

Classic Pinkun vibes.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

5 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

...via people calling each other c*nts and threatening to hit each other.

Classic Pinkun vibes.

I didn't threaten to hit him, I offered him a straightener. There is a difference! 

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

2 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I didn't threaten to hit him, I offered him a straightener. There is a difference! 

Shut up, or you'll get a clip round the ear.

[Michael Wynless Jones 161]

I think I'm going to like it here 😁