EU In or Out ?

[MooreMarriot 312]

" Wrong MooreMarriot...".

No , i am correct. The facts are easily checkable , if you could be bothered.

The salary of a EU employee is taxed by the EU, rather than at the local level. Taxation varies between 8% and 45% depending on individual circumstances. This is paid into the Community budget . What some woman told you in a bar in Sachsenhausen in 2004 is not really worth bothering with.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Could not make it up better could you Paul Moy, what utter rot, that some of the EU functionaries are equally fond of Lichtenstein''s melange of financial services for not very much tax, it is well known, but the majority of EU employees pay tax, full stop, were would we come to if we all act like irresponsible cowards.The EU needs reform, so don''t expect much attention for what goes on outside its periphery. Far from the pathetic predictions that this will break the EU''s back, this will galvanise those who want to make it work, with and despite off the generous British gift, never ending, thanks to Libya, of refugees that are fleeing countries that have been beset with chaos.The EU could probably make a case for throwing the UK out for such irresponsible military actions, but its boring to be at each others throat when you have stuff to get on with, being positively involved is a much better idea. For that you have to be in.The mutualities we have developed over decades are engrained, strong and intrinsically linked, from social structures to trade and environmental, infrastructure, air control, police cooperation, a myriad of mutual connections.I merely regret that as a EU citizen resident here I have no vote in this EU referendum, but immigrants like me are paying their share of taxes for both their advertising campaigns, quiet hilarious really because it epitomises the UK ''s ancient political system which only ever serves the rich in the City, vested interests,and off course, the famous. Were would we be, what would we talk about if we had no celebrities to swipe our brains with.but I digress, we can only hope that it does not rain, one would not want to leave such an important decision come down to a minority vote, just because some poor darlings absence from the ballot box due to fear/laziness of dissolving in water.

[paul moy 235]

Immigration is not necessarily a bad thing but the current unfettered levels over the past decade are crazy, placing untold pressure on all of our infrastructure, not least housing, schools and NHS which are now creaking at the seams. Merkel naively invited virtually the whole world to Germany and thus the UK last year and and look what is happening. We are being overrun by third world sexual aggression, crime, religion and superstition.

Immigration cannot be controlled within the EU and they have told us this so many times, as it is the basis of the so-called ''free market'' so we have to vote OUT to maintain our culture, standards of living etc.

...and there are many other reasons to vote out as most older people well know.

[Herman 9,825]

"paul moy""...and there are many other reasons to vote out as most older people well know.

"Like what?

[paul moy 235]

OK Herman:

Costs of membership can be used to support our own services such as the NHS rather than the smaller states. Our membership costs increased by almost 2 billion pounds last year because of our booming economy relative to the rest of the EU.

We can stop paying child benefit for children that do not live in the UK.

We can get our fishing industry back.

We can support the steel industry and reduce the crippling EU green taxes that currently add 20% or more to our fuel bills.

We can deport criminals without the EU Court of Justice etc overruling us.

Basically we get our sovereignty back and can govern our country for our best interests which we cannot do at the moment in the EU.

We will not be further taken down the schlerotic EU socialist route.

We will not have to bail out the Euro etc as the Euro inevitably continues its collapse in the ''PIGS'' countries.

... and there are even many more positive reasons to come out !!!

Give me one good reason why we should stay in because all I have heard from the ''INs'' is clearly scaremongering.

[SwindonCanary 455]

It''s

interesting why we are having a referendum. During the last election

UKIP looked very strong and Cameron didn''t think he would get an overall

majority, he thought he''d be in a coalition with the Lib Dems again. So

to quell the rise of UKPI he said if he got in he would hold a

referendum and use that excuse he''d been using throughout by saying the

Lib Dems stopped him. It came as a complete surprise to all that he won

outright ! This left him with no option, he had to hold the referendum,

which he never wanted.

[ricardo 7,401]

[quote user="Herman "]"paul moy""...and there are many other reasons to vote out as most older people well know.

"Like what?[/quote]There''s really only one reason Herman, can we kick the buggers out if we don''t like them?Westminster..............YesBrussels....................No

[Herman 9,825]

We can. They''re called MEPs. And if you feel as if they are not repesenting your views you can vote them out. The fact that not many people vote for or even know their MEP is a different matter.[:)]

[Herman 9,825]

[quote user="SwindonCanary"]

It''s

interesting why we are having a referendum. During the last election

UKIP looked very strong and Cameron didn''t think he would get an overall

majority, he thought he''d be in a coalition with the Lib Dems again. So

to quell the rise of UKPI he said if he got in he would hold a

referendum and use that excuse he''d been using throughout by saying the

Lib Dems stopped him. It came as a complete surprise to all that he won

outright ! This left him with no option, he had to hold the referendum,

which he never wanted.

[/quote]That''s pretty much how I see it. And he desparately doesn''t want to be the PM that took us out of Europe.

[paul moy 235]

Rest assured that if we vote ''IN'' UKIP will be a major party at the next election/s after we are flooded with more millions of non-integrating anti-west muslims and even more voters become disenchanted with Lab/Lib/Con EU-subservient governments.

''OUT'' will eventually come but the cost will be many more billions if we delay as well as potential civil strife.

The lies by the desperate INNERS know no bounds as today''s news highlights with their incredible estimate that we will each be 4300 pounds a year worse off. Coming ''OUT'' is not mainly about money anyway though is it !!!!

[ricardo 7,401]

[quote user="Herman "]We can. They''re called MEPs. And if you feel as if they are not repesenting your views you can vote them out. The fact that not many people vote for or even know their MEP is a different matter.[:)][/quote]Irrelevant because with the rest of the EU headed down a path that we don''t want to go it means we are continually out voted. We only have to look at the way the EU made the Irish and Dutch vote again after first rejecting the Lisbon agreement to see that this is not a democracy.The EU is not a Demos and it will never be one despite the urging of the Euro elite. It won''t work because it can''t work.

[Herman 9,825]

[quote user="paul moy"]OK Herman:

Costs of membership can be used to support our own services such as the NHS rather than the smaller states. Our membership costs increased by almost 2 billion pounds last year because of our booming economy relative to the rest of the EU.

We can stop paying child benefit for children that do not live in the UK.

We can get our fishing industry back.

We can support the steel industry and reduce the crippling EU green taxes that currently add 20% or more to our fuel bills.

We can deport criminals without the EU Court of Justice etc overruling us.

Basically we get our sovereignty back and can govern our country for our best interests which we cannot do at the moment in the EU.

We will not be further taken down the schlerotic EU socialist route.

We will not have to bail out the Euro etc as the Euro inevitably continues its collapse in the ''PIGS'' countries.

... and there are even many more positive reasons to come out !!!

Give me one good reason why we should stay in because all I have heard from the ''INs'' is clearly scaremongering.[/quote]Your own government is desparately trying to privatise the NHS,(which nobody seems to be that intersted in, unless you can bash the EU) so no, any extra money will not go into funding it.The fishing industry is in a terrible state mostly due to overfishing and a serious lack of stock. The current quota system needs reform, but even if we pull out of the EU, we won''t be going back to the industry of yore because we will still need some form of quota and sustainablity systems.We could have helped the steel industry, but our government decided it was more important to keep the Chinese sweet. The green taxes are only a tiny proportion of energy bills.We can deport criminals, and are doing so. A small minority are using human rights laws to stay. But this is separate from the EU.Personally I don''t think you are prepared to listen and will vote OUT no matter what. Some of the OUTers have come up with genuine thought provoking and interesting points, but there have been a lot of half-truths, scaremongering and downright lies.

[paul moy 235]

Herman, we handed over our fishing industry as part of the common market deal in the 70s. Keep up.

Also, fishing stocks are now good, especially cod if you follow recent news due to a moratorium. Come out and we could have a booming industry back under our control.

We cannot support steel because the EU deem it state support which is illegal under their rules and as I said before we are uncompetitive because of the EU and their green fuel taxes on industry which China do not have.

It''s not a case of not listening, just that your points are illogical and naive.

[paul moy 235]

... and Herman, your point about privatising the NHS is pure negative propaganda by the left wing who themselves cynically privatised parts of the NHS under Blair. As we know the left are experts when it comes to hypocrisy, but this has zilch to do with the EU debate anyway.

The NHS will never be totally privatised and you should know it, but there are good reasons to take certain parts private to make efficiencies and savings so that more money can instead be directed at patients rather than overheads.

What you should consider though is the burden and extra costs that immigration of almost 10 million people from the EU and elsewhere and the consequent soaring birth-rate have added to our creaking NHS. Controlling our borders and repatriating our billions of pounds in membership fees will help for sure and we cannot do that in the EU. Vote ''OUT'' !!

[ricardo 7,401]

[quote user="Herman "]Your own government is desparately trying to privatise the NHS,(which nobody seems to be that intersted in, unless you can bash the EU) so no, any extra money will not go into funding it.

[/quote]We have the power to vote our own government out and often do when they run out of steam.In a Union of 28 countries we will always be outvoted.That alone should be enough to vote Out.

[Herman 9,825]

It''s not about that Ricardo. It''s about the OUT gang using the NHS for their propaganda when it''s quite clear they don''t give a toss about it. It stinks.

[Herman 9,825]

[quote user="paul moy"]... and Herman, your point about privatising the NHS is pure negative propaganda by the left wing who themselves cynically privatised parts of the NHS under Blair. As we know the left are experts when it comes to hypocrisy, but this has zilch to do with the EU debate anyway.

The NHS will never be totally privatised and you should know it, but there are good reasons to take certain parts private to make efficiencies and savings so that more money can instead be directed at patients rather than overheads.

What you should consider though is the burden and extra costs that immigration of almost 10 million people from the EU and elsewhere and the consequent soaring birth-rate have added to our creaking NHS. Controlling our borders and repatriating our billions of pounds in membership fees will help for sure and we cannot do that in the EU. Vote ''OUT'' !![/quote]No, it is fact.Blair wasn''t left wing.You''re the one that keeps bringing up the NHS.Where on earth has that figure come from? Maybe the aging and increasingly obese population, and the fact that hospitals are still closing has a lot to do with it creaking.

[Herman 9,825]

[quote user="paul moy"]Herman, we handed over our fishing industry as part of the common market deal in the 70s. Keep up.

Also, fishing stocks are now good, especially cod if you follow recent news due to a moratorium. Come out and we could have a booming industry back under our control.

We cannot support steel because the EU deem it state support which is illegal under their rules and as I said before we are uncompetitive because of the EU and their green fuel taxes on industry which China do not have.

It''s not a case of not listening, just that your points are illogical and naive.[/quote]Where did I say we didn''t?So the quota system works.This last paragraph is complete bollox.

[ricardo 7,401]

[quote user="Herman "]It''s not about that Ricardo. It''s about the OUT gang using the NHS for their propaganda when it''s quite clear they don''t give a toss about it. It stinks.[/quote]In fairness Herman, both sides have been guilty of using the NHS in scaremongering. According to Osborne, if we leave, the NHS will collapse and we will all be four thousand quid poorer. I don''t believe a word of it and you can''t put a price on democracy.

[Herman 9,825]

True Ricardo. I think the people deserve some real facts for such an important vote. Luckily the internet helps provide some answers, if you have the time and patience to trawl through pages of stuff and a lot of guff.[Y]

[paul moy 235]

Herman, you don''t seem to want the facts as you clearly are not listening.

I asked you to list reasons for us to stay in after my long list of reasons to come out. Please give us your long list of reasons !!!!

[Herman 9,825]

[quote user="paul moy"]Herman, you don''t seem to want the facts as you clearly are not listening.

I asked you to list reasons for us to stay in after my long list of reasons to come out. Please give us your long list of reasons !!!![/quote]You haven''t given many facts.Put it this way, and this is from a purely selfish point of view, although some may feel the same way . Since joining the EU:Has it had any adverse affects on my life? NO. Has it lead to a poorer standard of living? NO. Has my work been badly affected.NO. (That''s with the Dutch, our main rivals in my trade, having free access to our markets)?.Has the cost of living risen to terrible levels? NO Has immigration had any adverse affects on me or my family. NO (except an annoying Polish bloke I had to work with). Have I been able to travel cheaply and visa free throughout Europe. YES. (10 so far). Have I been able to buy and sell in Europe freely. YES.Life in the EU is not perfect,everyone will admit, but I am not going to risk a reasonably comfortable life, also not perfect, on a gamble that it MIGHT get better if we leave.

[SwindonCanary 455]

It astounds me why people still want to remain, It''s a sinking ship. look at this report BBC about the EU.     http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36090188

[paul moy 235]

Keep burying your head in the sand if it makes you happy Herman.

BTW EU have added 20% to energy bills agreed by Milliband which is helping to kill our steel industry. China do not apply this tax to their fuel so it is so much cheaper to produce steel in China than in the UK.

So the EU DOES make things more expensive.

Good luck in Jihadi Europe !!!

[MooreMarriot 312]

".....BTW EU have added 20% to energy bills...."

Just like your claim that EU employees pay no income tax this is complete cobblers.

EU green targets add about £8 to the average energy bill. Other , and larger ,  green levies are imposed by the government and are likely to remain in or out of the EU.

[ricardo 7,401]

[quote user="Herman "]Life in the EU is not perfect,everyone will admit, but I am not going to risk a reasonably comfortable life, also not perfect, on a gamble that it MIGHT get better if we leave.[/quote]

That''s the same argument as "My wife/girlfriend may be a bit of a dog but at least I get the occasional shag".

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="MooreMarriot"]".....BTW EU have added 20% to energy bills...."

Just like your claim that EU employees pay no income tax this is complete cobblers.

EU green targets add about £8 to the average energy bill. Other , and larger ,  green levies are imposed by the government and are likely to remain in or out of the EU.

[/quote]

Rubbish !!! Green taxes have been imposed by the EU.

[Herman 9,825]

[quote user="paul moy"]Keep burying your head in the sand if it makes you happy Herman.

BTW EU have added 20% to energy bills agreed by Milliband which is helping to kill our steel industry. China do not apply this tax to their fuel so it is so much cheaper to produce steel in China than in the UK.

So the EU DOES make things more expensive.

Good luck in Jihadi Europe !!![/quote]China has no workers rights and a endless supply of very cheap labour. China has no enviromental protections so will use whatever cheap, nasty fuel it can get, hence the city-stopping pollution. China can produce steel so cheap that our workforce would have to go without a wage just to get near their price. It has little to nothing to do with ''green taxes''.I feel we are getting to the crux of your problem so i will leave it there.[:|]

[Van wink 2,994]

The social dimension of Europe is not a good enough reason to keep us in.

We have lead the world in Health and Safety regulation as an example, we don''t to be part of EU to continue our good work in this respect.

[MooreMarriot 312]

"......Rubbish !!! Green taxes have been imposed by the EU..... "

You are getting confused. I suspect in your confusion you got the 20% from the EU''s climate change target of reducing carbon emissions by 20% by 2020. If you think your energy bills will reduce by 20% if we left the EU you are off your rocker. The biggest green tax on your energy bill was  home improvements to the fuel poor which adds £47 to the average bill , then there are smart meters and other add ons......none of which have been imposed by the EU. The Tories are reducing the onshore wind farm subsidies.....did they need the permission of the EU ? No.