Ryan Hartly (egg chaser)...

[Canaries Utd 0]

Sent off whilst playing for his club Northampton, for swearing at the ref and calling him a cheat.

Hartly now misses Lions tour.

I think the Football/Premier League could/should learn from this.

[crabbycanary 2]

Dylan Hartley, but I get your point, there is a lot Football could learn from Rugby, regarding the officials

[Joanna Grey 0]

Despite this being well off topic there is already a rule regarding dissent and players have been sent off for it.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Canaries Utd"]Sent off whilst playing for his club Northampton, for swearing at the ref and calling him a cheat.

Hartly now misses Lions tour.

I think the Football/Premier League could/should learn from this.[/quote]What do you think football/the Premier League could learn?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,105]

When and why did the dissent rule disappear.

I thought the rule that if a player showed dissent then the free-kick got advanced 10 yards was a great idea. Meant misbehaving players would not only have pressure from the authorities to clean their act up, but also their team-mates and manager.

Didnt really notice when they removed that rule though or why

[Aggy 766]

10 yard rule was not necessarily an advantage - either you were that far out that an extra 10 yards didn''t make much of a difference, or you were so close in that the extra 10 yards got you too close to the goal to be able to get the ball over the wall and back down again in time to hit the target.

The dissent rule is already there; yellow card. Personally, I don''t even see it as a major issue; if players want to mouth off at the ref, so what? The ref can book them if it''s particularly bad, or just ignore them if not. I never really have understood why dissent to refs is seen as such a bad thing. Yeah it would be lovely for refs if we didn''t have it, but I can think of far more pressing concerns than players running round a ref and saying that decision was s***.

[Yellow Wal 314]

The interesting point was that he was suspended for 11 games. (Apart from the fact his name is Dylan).

That is the sort of punishment that makes players sit up and take notice.

The paltry 3 match suspensions given out are quite meaningless when you have a squad full of multi-millionaire players one of whom commits a ''professional foul'' to save a multi-million pound goal.

Other fouls and subsequent sending offs are not treated seriously enough. As distasteful as it may seem Suarez was given a 10 match ban for biting. But however hard he bit Ivanovic it would not have threatened his playing career. Some of the fouls leading to red cards this season could easily have ended fellow professionals careers ...... but they earn a three match ban.

Get the thugs, cheats and fouled mouthed whingers out of the game (as well as the biters!) by giving them longer bans.

[crabbycanary 2]

Aggy -have you ever refereed a game of reasonable standard?

[Absent Friend 0]

[quote user="Aggy"] Personally, I don''t even see it as a major issue; if players want to mouth off at the ref, so what? The ref can book them if it''s particularly bad, or just ignore them if not. I never really have understood why dissent to refs is seen as such a bad thing. Yeah it would be lovely for refs if we didn''t have it, but I can think of far more pressing concerns than players running round a ref and saying that decision was s***.[/quote]

I agree that the 10-yard rule doesn''t work so well for football - rugby is a territorial game and being able to gain extra ground by taking a penalty shot (either for touch or goal) 10 yards forwards makes a difference.

If football wants to learn from rugby it should introduce sin bins - dissent automatically triggering a 10 minute penalty.

As for Hartley he wasn''t saying a particular decision was s***, but he had already been warned about making remarks that appeared to be directed at the ref and then seemed to call him a cheat - whilst claiming he was directing that remark at an opponent.  How stupid can you be?

Personally I do not think a football or rugby referee who is biased will be able to hide that for long enough to reach even the national leagues, in either sport.  They are in charge of lot of games long before we see them on our screens.  So to question the integrity of these guys is crossing the line and it ought to attract a serious ban (and in rugby clearly does).

And frankly if someone really does believe a particular official is a cheat then that''s easy - just refuse to play in games they are in charge of.  Because if there''s any justification for that view there will be a lot of people thinking the same, not just the odd one.

[Aggy 766]

Crabby, no. Don''t see the relevance though. At Sunday pub league level a ref may be influenced by a team full of 20 stone blokes getting angry. But at professional level, players giving refs stick should be like water off a duck''s back. Should we ban the fans from singing about refs as well? Don''t get me wrong - respect to the refs is a good thing and should be encouraged, but personally I don''t get too wound up by it when I see whole teams of players crowding around a ref. Let''s deal with the bad decisions they make, the lack of goal line technology and the lack of communication between off field officials who have seen the incidents and those on field who may not have done before we start to worry too much about refs crowding round players.

Let freekicks be taken quickly all the time. There will be very little dissent then as players will quickly learn that if the whole team is crowding around the ref, the opposition can pass through and score with ease.

[crabbycanary 2]

Why should players giving refs stick be like water off a ducks back? Strange comment that one. Why should refs just shrug their shoulders, when one or more people stand two yards away and shout at the top of their voices, expletives at them? You wouldn''t get that sort of behaviour in any form of day to day business from people, to someone who is managing their work place. Is it because it is ''just'' football, and is ''accepted'' as being the sport of the masses, so can be excused?

It doesn''t happen in Rugby, a sport that has FAR more tension running through it minute by minute. The respect that exists between refs and players in that, and many other sports, is huge, why cannot it be accepted in football? The financial rewards are greater in football, but that should not be used as an excuse. The financial rewards in other sports come with some big £s also.

Refs are human and , like players, make mistakes, (even with technology, a la Rugby League at the weekend), and the sooner the players are trained to learn that refs give decisions , as they ''see it'', from ''their angle'' etc and not because they are perceived as biased/corrupt etc, (some refs egos aside I would concede) then the game can move on. The fans see their players giving a ref an extremely hard time, and see that as a good enough reason to join in.

Your points talk about goal line technology , and a lack of communication between officials, things that are a problem in the modern game, and I agree need addressing, but not relevant to the stick that refs get. Is (swearing at a refs decision) a ''protest'', by the players, through the refs, to the likes of UEFA and FIFA for these things to be changed? I don''t think players are that calculating. Refs need more backing from the game''s bigwigs, to be able to introduce empathy/common sense, whatever you want to call it. They are being stifled by the controlling suits up top.

In another comment you say that respect should be encouraged, so why not learn from other sports like Rugby? Like with a lot of problems with football, (respect for officials, diving, feigning injury etc) start at the top, and very quickly the grass roots will pick up on this, and we would have a far better sport on our hands.

Refs are not the Devil incarnate, as some players/fans think, and as for the Sunday League refs, who give up their time for a bit of petrol money (it won''t be paying their mortgage anytime soon), they surely deserve the biggest dollop of respect going, and can do without the 20 stoners (who of course, make more mistakes than correct decisions during a game) bawling at them.

[Canaries Utd 0]

Great post Crabby, it wouldn''t be exceptable in any other proffesion where someone is officiating a situation, why should 90 minutes of football that is being watched by families and children be any difference. It''s what''s wrong with our country today, not enough discipline.

[Foghorn 0]

Looks like rugby is learning from football in this instance, in terms of players starting to be disrespectful.

When I refereed (at a very low level) I used to get the players together before the start, tell them that I would make mistakes, but that they would be honest mistakes, and affecting both sides, and that they could feel free to criticise me for them when they managed to play a perfect game - no mis-placed passes, no poor shots, no mis-timed tackles, etc.

Consequently, never had any problems with dissent.

[Yellow Wal 314]

Aggy - I would imagine if the referee ran past you after you had missed an open goal and shouted at you "You tosser, you cocked that one up, didn''t you" you would not be too pleased.

So why on earth do you think players should have the right to whinge at referees if they make a mistake?

In either case - it doesn''t really do any good does it?

[Aggy 766]

I don''t disagree with any of that Crabby, but I''m not sure you''ve really answered why respect towards refs is more important than any of the other things I mentioned. How does it make the game better if players don''t shout expletives at the ref? It makes the game more business like and professional? It sets an example for young kids? Ok, valid one perhaps, but not exactly a major issue imo - I''ve grown up seeing refs being verbally abused by players and I''ve turned out alright (I think!).

If they are bad expletives, he can already book them. They do it twice, they''re off. Powers already with the referee. If they''re not bad expletives, then he ignores them and plays on. Yellow Wall - no, I wouldn''t, but then I can''t book a ref and nor am I supposed to be unbiased during a game.

As I''ve said, in an ideal world we may all be playing like true gentleman, but that is far less important than other issues that actually effect the outcome of games. Not just mistakes made by the refs (although those and other issues such as goal line technology which would assist a ref are key issues which directly affect the outcome of a game), but also things such as diving or tightening the laws up on shirt pulling in the box, and giving a penalty when a player is fouled but doesn''t go down (and the fact that refs very rarely do give a penalty unless a player goes down is why they dive in the first place). Sort those things out and the outcome of the game will be fairer, and the match better as a result. Then we can start to worry about things such as not shouting at the ref.

I just personally don''t see it as an issue that needs to be at the top of FIFA/the FA''s agenda at the moment when, firstly, there are far more pressing matters to address which change the outcome and integrity of the game far more, and, secondly, the ref already has powers to deal with players verbally abusing him anyway!

[crabbycanary 2]

Aggy - it was because that was the catalyst for this thread!

It is a very important part of the game today I feel, nothing to do with ''business like'' but what is there not to like about giving and receiving respect? I feel you may be missing the bigger picture here, that the scale of impact,  ''respect'' changes we are talking about on here, would have on the whole game, from grassroots upwards 

Your other points are all worthy debating topics ,and I agree with you.

[Yellow Wal 314]

Aggy - I would wholeheartedly agree with many of the points you have made. Diving, tightening the laws up on shirt pulling in the box, and giving a penalty when a player is fouled but doesn''t go down (and the fact that refs very rarely do give a penalty unless a player goes down is why they dive in the first place) are very good points and I would hope that referees would grow some and give more penalties.

After the initial shock players, and more importantly managers, would soon learn that those fouls cannot go, as they do now, unpunished. Perhaps the referees would then get less grief.

But even if they do it still is not very productive. Unfortunately in grassroots football dissent is treated more severely than the professional game as it seems referees there can recognise being called a **** but often cannot recognise fouls!

crabbycrab - In the case of respect the FA missed the most important point. Respect is something that is earned not something to be imposed upon people. The time for handshakes is after the match not before, especially in grassroots football.

I was most impressed recently when in a very low standard of football cup final, all the players shook hands with their opponents after a very close match. That was real respect not the imposed, almost meaningless, handshake (or touching of hands) that the FA has imposed on many games.

[Aggy 766]

In what way do you think respect changes discussed would impact the whole game, Crabby? I just don''t see it. From the viewpoint of simply not liking the swearing at and surrounding of refs from a moralistic type view, I agree it should be stamped down on. In terms of not questioning the ref, again, I agree that it should not be taken too far, which is why refs can already brandish yellow cards. I don''t think a blanket ban on talking to a ref would increase respect - certainly at the level I play, a ref is far less likely to get abuse if they are willing to discuss the reasoning behind their decisions with you, and listen if you say something like "I''m being pushed in the back every header here ref, can you keep an eye on it?"

But what impact would it have on the game as a whole? Players wouldn''t suddenly stop diving or pushing an opponent in the back just before a cross comes in to get an unfair advantage in the jump, and you''d still get the nutters like Roy Keane or Joey Barton who go out to deliberately injure a player or punch opposition players because they are annoyed.

As you say, I might well be missing the bigger picture, I just can''t see what that bigger picture is in this instance!