R.Martin In PFA Team Of The Year

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

Why can''t you lot be glad for him and happy that one of our players has got a bit of recognition? Miserable b*stards.

Looks like his years of good service and love of Norwich City count for little. In an era where player loyalty is question, maybe it''s time to be loyal to the players that have given back a lot to our club.

[Move Klose 303]

I think people are just a bit suprised. If someone said "which norwich player got in the pfa team of the year" i dont think many would suggest russell martin. Do you think russell martin will be in our top 3 for player of the season because i dont. Do you think hes been our best defender this season because i dont.

[westcoastcanary 0]

[quote user="CJRV 2014"]I think people are just a bit suprised. If someone said "which norwich player got in the pfa team of the year" i dont think many would suggest russell martin. Do you think russell martin will be in our top 3 for player of the season because i dont. Do you think hes been our best defender this season because i dont.[/quote]Maybe what should surprise people is not that RM got into the PFA Team of the Year but the discrepancy between their opinion and that of more knowledgeable professionals in the game (not just Russ''s peers who play with and against him, but also his club and national managers who keep selecting him ahead of others at CB and have a big say in contract negotiations). If people can''t understand why RM is in that eleven, it suggests to me they should perhaps start questioning their own opinion.

[Move Klose 303]

I watched brighton saturday and i can see why martin gets a start ahead of gordon greer for scotland, shocking. I personally like Martin but i wouldnt want to see him at right back again and i think we can do better centrally.

[Molly Windley 76]

Firstly, congratulations to Russel Martin on his award.However I cannot personally see what his fellow PFA members in the Championship have seen from his on pitch performances that warrant it. I see him as an average Championship level defender, not awful but not great, just an average defender. But Im willing to be educated and informed by others if they can convince me through reasoned debate. Unless there are any current players on this board then any off field qualities that he does or does not possess cannot really be put forward to promote your views. To this end I have a list of attributes that would make a great defender, perhaps someone more knowledgeable can put them in order and rate RM out of 10 for each. I have given my ratings, what would yours be?Reading of the game 6Pace 6Tackling/shepherding players (strength, timing and agility) 6Out muscling opposition players  6Organisation of defence at set pieces  5Organisation of defence in general play  5Positional awareness  7Ability to mark 6On pitch communication 6Dominance in the air 6Closing down and blocking shots 6Distribution of the ball / clearing of the ball 6Ability to set the tempo of the game. 5Ability to motivate, direct and drive other players when team not playing well. 6

[nutty nigel 7,645]

Just so that we can get some perspective on your ratings Molly how would you rate his proposed partner Keogh?

[Molly Windley 76]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Just so that we can get some perspective on your ratings Molly how would you rate his proposed partner Keogh?[/quote]I could`nt give a detailed assessment on Keogh as I have not seen enough of him although he looked solid against us. Im not anti Russ Martin, its just that I do not see any stand out qualities from him on the pitch that would put him any higher than average. Or put another way, if he was playing for another club right now I would not have him as a transfer target for us in the summer.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"][quote user="CJRV 2014"]I think people are just a bit suprised. If someone said "which norwich player got in the pfa team of the year" i dont think many would suggest russell martin. Do you think russell martin will be in our top 3 for player of the season because i dont. Do you think hes been our best defender this season because i dont.[/quote]Maybe what should surprise people is not that RM got into the PFA Team of the Year but the discrepancy between their opinion and that of more knowledgeable professionals in the game (not just Russ''s peers who play with and against him, but also his club and national managers who keep selecting him ahead of others at CB and have a big say in contract negotiations). If people can''t understand why RM is in that eleven, it suggests to me they should perhaps start questioning their own opinion.[/quote]

What it displays, yet again, is a sheep mentality. One person voices an opinion, others read it and then repeat it without any apparent ability to have a personal thought. Been like that for years.

[nutty nigel 7,645]

Well that''s my point really Molly, even in your opinion Martin could have been a worthy member of that team of the season.

[Ray 111]

Nutty,

Re Keogh, perhaps a way forward would be to say the best CB in England scored 10 in all categories, which I suspect noone would do but I guess John Terry (or a combination of him and one or two others) would be the one(s) to judge all others by, then I think my scores woul be as follows (assuming a Sunday league pub player would score 1 in evry caregory).

Reading of the game 8.0

Pace 7.5

Tackling/shepherding players (strength, timing and agility) 8.0

Out muscling opposition players 7.0

Organisation of defence at set pieces 7.0

Organisation of defence in general play 7.5

Positional awareness 8.0

Ability to mark 7.5

On pitch communication 7.5

Dominance in the air 7.5

Closing down and blocking shots 8

Distribution of the ball / clearing of the ball 8

Ability to set the tempo of the game 7.5

Ability to motivate, direct and drive other players when team not playing well 8.0

Remembering based on the previously mentioned criteria a score of 7 means he is 70% as good as JT or the hypothetical CB who scores 10 in every category and that the overweight Sunday pub player is 10% the player JT or hypothetical player is.

Given RM is playing in the second level of football nationally then it is almost inconceivable he could score anything less than a 7 in any category.

If you use another criteria, let’s say the best CB in the Prem scores 10 and the worst CB in the Champs scores 1, then of course you may get different scores for RM.

If however you were to score RM against his own ultimate best performance, then throughout the season you would probably have to be at 9 or 10, because he gives his all consistently and is never left wanting when it comes to fighting for the cause.

Good luck on this one, it''s a minefield.

[nutty nigel 7,645]

I agree Ray. That''s far better than my Keogh example. Or you could ask how many championship centre backs you''d swap for Martin. Assuming theres 50 in total if the answer is none he scores 50 but if you''dswap 49 he''d score 1.

Alternatively you could use independent ratings or even the opinion of his fellow professionals...

[ruthers1 0]

Is this a wind up Ray?

Do you actually watch our games live or do you just listen to Radio Norfolk - or as you probably call it Radio Normal for Norfolk?

Are you seriously telling me that you score the below categories for Russell Martin (or Russ as you affectionately know him) as follows:

On Pitch communication 7.5?!

Dominance in the air 7.5?!!

Closing down and blocking shots 8?!!!

Ability to motivate, direct & drive other players when team not playing well 8?!!!!

Seriously Ray? Nurse!

[Molly Windley 76]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Well that''s my point really Molly, even in your opinion Martin could have been a worthy member of that team of the season.[/quote]Martin is a worthy member of the team because those that had the right to vote, voted him into it.My point was that I personally could not see the footballing qualities in him that would raise him to such a level.

[Ray 111]

ruthers1,

My answers in the order you posed the questions.

1) No.

2) Yes ,every home game as a minimum and I do listen to some away games on the radio or watch on stream if possible. I also attend many other games, so see many players from varying levels.

3) Yes, given the criteria outlined, it would almost impossible to give any Championship player a score less than 7. Let me ask you a question, did you read and fully understand the criteria?

4) Yes, seriously

ruthers1, so far I have not called your opinions into question, they are yours and you are entitled to them, just because I have differing opinions doesn''t mean I need a nurse any more than you do.

[nutty nigel 7,645]

Now about this nurse....

[Ray 111]

In my mind''s eye Nutty she''s..... think it best I stop there, but I aint sharing her with anyone, including ruthers1!!

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

Extracts from a November thread for those requesting a resume'' of why Russell Martin is an accomplished, modern centre back meriting the respect of his professional peers:

Russell Martin is a Centre Back

In light of his excellent performances at centre back at International level for Scotland, David Powles in the EDP asks whether it is the Captaincy at Norwich that weighs Russell Martin down. The following is from August:

"There is a difference between better-than-the championship and good-enough-for-the-premier. They are not necessarily the same thing, and one does not necessarily prove the other."

We are also learning about the players we have and perhaps better able to contextualise their abilities and strengths in a more balanced way than when in the maelstrom of premier decline.

Arguably the best player so far this year is Michael Turner. I think it is interesting and instructive to compare and contrast him with Russell Martin in respect of the above phrase and in terms of what fans do and don''t see.

Turner himself has stated that he feels comfortable and well suited to this league. He is dominant and has weapons to defend against the adversaries he finds here. Opposition attackers are typically big, strong and attack central areas, looking to burst through channels, feed off knock downs and second balls and get on the end on frequent, high crosses. Balls cone into the box from (sometimes well) outside it and even the best championship players he is up against (say Rhodes) stand on his toes and knock up against him. He has all of the attributes to deal with this and his performances grow in line with his confidence. Expect him to return to scoring ways from set pieces in the near future and score half a dozen during the season.

Russell Martin divides opinion. Many feel we require further defensive recruitment in the centre and on the right side. He is respected as steady, reliable and a good club captain.

I feel he is a great example of the reverse of the quoted phrase.

Whereas Turner is an example of the best model that existed as a template for British defenders five or ten years ago, Martin is a reasonable example of a modern defender moving into the future. Contrary to what many believe, Martin is undoubtedly a centre back.

His skills - positioning, fluidity of movement, comfort on the ball, playing between the lines in a defensive sense - is the benchmark for better premier defenders. He allows teams -regardless how they are set up tactically - to play with three players in the defensive line (or even two depending on the midfield screen, but that''s a more advanced chapter). He covers the crucial space between centre back and full back naturally and instinctively, moving even wider if necessary. He also steps and tracks players into 3/4 areas, which old-school centre backs fear.

Thus Martin may be considered a better footballer, but can contemporarily be far less effective than Turner at this level. Conversely Turner may make more notable (eye-catching clearances, last-ditch tackles) contributions in the Premier, but be less beneficial to tactical shape than Martin, who is better suited to dealing with the positions taken up by an Aguero or Silva. Such players do not come and still on anybody''s toes.

Thus - thinking forwards - we should maintain Martin at Centre back, even though he may get caught out in 2D strength and height battles against an Assombalonga for example. Turner will mostly take care of such players and few sides will have two of them. I would thus encourage Martin to not only follow strikers into 3/4 areas, but use the lower level of the second tier to step into these areas with the ball and develop his distribution.

Parma

Sent from my iPhone

Sent from my iPhone

Re: Russell Martin is a Centre Back

Strangely it is hard Mrs M,

Human psychology ensures that we revert back to our default settings when under pressure or in stressful situations.

So it is with footballers.

They all have instinctive tendencies for positioning, grooved movements, danger or opportunity awareness, plus (and sometimes most importantly) their natural overriding personality traits. Selflessness might be ideal in the disciplined deep midfield pivot, whilst the opposite might be a good trait for your poacher.

Knowing all of this, understanding the very essence of your players adds huge value, whilst ensuring (in the best managers) that they assign the right jobs to the right characteristics, not merely the apparent ability to do

It''s a re-hash truthfully Ron, but EDP journals have a tendency for the simplistic... So thought it worth a re-visit even though it''s half a year old...it''s a direct answer to Powles'' question...

Re the Captaincy point, I see where you are coming from, but there is an element that players see/feel that is hard to gauge from the sidelines... Much like animals, players instinctively know their place in the quality pecking order.. Martin has a pedigree game suited to a higher level, other players respect this. Let''s not exaggerate, he''s not Ferdinand or Pique or Cannavaro, but the way he plays is Premier League suited. It is to the great detriment (I would say embarrassment) of British football, that we don''t make many defenders like him.*

(*by like him I mean the ability to play between the lines as a counterpoint to the kind of fluid forward I like to see / England is trying to create).

That this has limited currency in the Championship is accepted.

In answer to your multi-centre back purchases point, I must say I have no real answer. There are some on tee weight arguments: only 1 recognised right back in Whittaker so need cover, Whittaker not great so Martin may need to play there, Bennett injured, Turner the only Champ-style defender so need cover, Hoiveld good added goalscoring option, Ignasi likely to increase in value with some (even a few) games....

However not sure any of this couldn''t be solved by buying a Good right back in the first place...

...so 1-0 to Ron on that one I would say....

Parma

Re: Russell Martin is a Centre Back

GJP, what you see is Martin drifting into between the line positions, often fruitlessly in this league admittedly, often to cover for Whittakers forays forward, where he often overlaps and shuts space down for Redmond, or even encourages him to slow to wait for the overlap.

Not only is this not necessary, Redmond is a better attacking weapon from deeper. We are / would be more effectively in attacking sense by allowing teams onto us a little more and counterattacking ourselves.

Thus Whittaker does work that doesn''t need doing, while Msttin covers for problems that don''t need to be there...

Parma

Re: Russell Martin is a Centre Back

...and all of that would matter less if we retained a disciplined deep midfield central pivot at all times....

... Instead the combination of the former attacking shape, plus the lack of autistic adherence to the midfield role above, plus Redmond''s tactical weakness, leads us to bring counterattacking regularly through that shape by inferior sides...

Parma

Re: Russell Martin is a Centre Back

...and none of that implies that Martin isn''t also the best right back we have, he is....

...just that some are conflating cause with effect...

Parma

Sent from my iPhone

Strangely it is hard Mrs M,

Human psychology ensures that we revert back to our default settings when under pressure or in stressful situations.

So it is with footballers.

They all have instinctive tendencies for positioning, grooved movements, danger or opportunity awareness, plus (and sometimes most importantly) their natural overriding personality traits. Selflessness might be ideal in the disciplined deep midfield pivot, whilst the opposite might be a good trait for your poacher.

Knowing all of this, understanding the very essence of your players adds huge value, whilst ensuring (in the best managers) that they assign the right jobs to the right characteristics, not merely the apparent ability to do the job.

Parma

[Ray 111]

Thank you Parma, thank you.

Hadn''t seen this before, but IMO it is very insightfull, but that''s because I agree with pretty much all that is written, others no doubt will take issue but that''s one of the things that makes exciting.... isn''t it?