Lavanche

Holtamania I stated in other thread that even thought Howson was very poor building up our attacks he did do better job defense wise that he did previous season after Tettey injured. And I dont love statistics. I just check them over after a game to see if my eyes saw everything right. Howson didnt create chances by himself. He didnt get the ball in good crossing positions. He didnt get our unit moved forward. He didnt create space for other players. Still he is playing in a role where this is his duty. Johnson didnt make big errors in defence and even thought he wasnt at his best he didnt "fail" in his role. This is reason why I think Howson was very poor saturday where Hoolahan and Johnson were average. I dont want to slack Howson, he wasnt utterly bad and I dont say he shouldnt ever play again for our shirt, but he was worst of starting trio in the middle. Even when Tettey came to bring energy he didnt do anything in that advanced role, dont know if it was asked from Hughton to not play in the pocket, but he was all the time in wrong position if he was supposed to link RvW with rest of the team. He even made us miss create counter attack 3 vs 3 by making poor choise. (thought the support of Tettey and Johnson wasnt probably the optimal combination anyway)

Elmander is capable of playing n 10 spot as is Toivonen and Quags, but he isn''t fluent passer as Toivonen and doesn''t have long shot of Quags. Best about Elmander is that he has always been quite cool headed professional what comes to playtime and role. Where Toivonen and Quags are bit of divas by personality. I still think we should have signed more profilic 10 than what Elmander can be and dont know what Hughton is planning with him, but doubt we will get anymore reinforcement for our four attacking spots in this window. Anyway nice chap to have in a team and if nothing else can give us quite much improved version of Wilbraham type player who will fight for every ball for those few minutes he gets . At best he can be our new Holt with 15 goals tally ^^

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]-- Lavanche wrote: In my opinion goal scorers should be RvW, Pilks and Fer in open play. While delivery is handled mainly trough Hoolahan, Snoddy and fullbacks. While third of the midfielders will stay in holding role. What about Snodgrass for goals? He had more chances than Holty last season. In the formation we played last season (and look like playing this season) the striker and two wingers pushing inside are the main source of goals. We can''t expect much from the DMs as they are not given license to push forward often. Wes should probably score more but doesn''t get many chances.[/quote] I would love to see goals from Snoddy, but as with Hoolahan the finishing seems to be problem. In my opinion he should score more often as he has license to push far as he wants. and what comes to our DM''s and goals Johnson shooted outside of the box about 10 times previous season, Tettey did same and Howson scored few. Fer is quite much improved version of them all what comes to going forward and something we need is player that can roam from behind when passing forward isn''t option. A bit like Lampard does for Chelsea, but slightly more defensive player. He can easily score 5 goals in open play during the season if we get our tactics right.

[quote user="Rock The Boat"]The software seemed to have chewed up my last post. I''ll try again. I always enjoy reading your analyses and summaries, Lavanche. In your opinion, how far off do you think Hughton is in getting the side that he wants?[/quote] Well it quite much depends how our middlefield can get things running. Arguable I think at some point he would like to have a bit faster winger on right than Snoddy is. Or this can be just something I would do. In balance wise our right side is always trailing a bit when we start attacking. In Everton game our counters were more threatning with Whittaker and Bennett there. So faster version of Snoddy would be quite much what we need. I in some fantasy thread said that someone like Alessio Cerci would be optimal. Can score, can outskill and outrun most defenders and have decent delivery from wide. Something worthwile looking was that Baines couldnt get much forward when Bennett wasn''t pulled to defend as they knew that their central defenders wouldnt stop him and RvW if we would get break from his side of the field. This is something that teams dont have to take account when we play with Snoddy. Also it is quite clear as said he wants new 10 spot player or at least option for Hoolahan and centre back that is better with the ball than Turner is. With those three changes I think Hughton would be near what he wants from that team, but as I''m not Hughton I cant be sure. I personaly would like some big hard tackling regista in place of Johnson, but Hughton at least this far seems to prefer that we build up in safer positions than front of our centre backs. And at the end it is endless process to build up team. You can always improve and even thought we start to have quality depth in some positions we could use more of it.

[quote user="GJP"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]And to complete the picture Wes made just one less tackle in the game than both BJ and Howson and the same number of interceptions.[/quote] Doesn''t really complete the picture though, does it? Stats are useful to an extent but there is more to a game of football than that. The picture is a lot bigger than the stats. If stats were everything then you''d never need to watch a player before you sign them. You''d just have a look at whoscored.com or similar and go by that. [/quote] You would surprise how much statistic is used when signing a player. For example for me in non-professional level when I was offered contract they had all the charts of my passing routes and movement etc. with smart vests on me in few training matches and never had seen me play out of youth national camp. ( so all they knew about me was stats and few random training sessions ) In professional level scouting is ofc a quite much better and they go to see few competive games before signing, but at the end scouting is quite much looking heat maps etc in modern systems. Scouts are sent these days to learn in american football and baseball scouts as they have quite much completely scout system that is based on stats and numbers. We in big league have a bit more luxyry as we can sign proven players that are not only profilic in one area, but for example teams like Celtic, portuguese teams and eastern europe teams have to sign players a bit "blind" and out of radar and their system is quite much based american systems. There was a great article about it in kicker few years back. (German football magazine) Have to see if I can find it. And really if you take anti-Hoolahan classes off your eyes and start looking what he does on the field he truly does lot of work effort for defending side and tries to keep passing routes cut off and tackle when ever he gets near the ball. He also doesnt mind to run fast down to defend our own box if we are out of formation. So I''m not at all surprised he get good statistics on defensive area too. Stats are not everything, but for me those stats just proves what I saw saturday and which was that our holding players had a bad day and Hoolahan had to play too much out of real position to be effective as he can be and we lost the battle in middlefield and you really cant prove anything else as stats almost every area show that Howson was very poor and other two were average. I would say that Johnson was poor too, but if you take count of his role and his passing ratings before Everton match, he had average day in his standards. God damn if he could pass the ball like Fox...

In my opinion goal scorers should be RvW, Pilks and Fer in open play. While delivery is handled mainly trough Hoolahan, Snoddy and fullbacks. While third of the midfielders will stay in holding role. Ofc if we sign Elmander or Quags/Toivonen change their mind they can give us more goal threat in 10spot too, but with current state of squad roster this would be my answer.

[quote user="star_manic"]Wes is supposed to be the attacking creator of the team. For me he plays too sideways, meaning the wide players are the ones to supply the striker. Howson is more forward thinking and is more likely to score himself. But he must be played as AM.[/quote] His duty in current tactic is get the ball between lines and give wide players time to get in positions and supply them. Cant really find out how the hell he would alone with RvW make lots of situations. Look for example that pass he gives for RvW''s first heading chance that is crossed by Bennett I think. No-one else makes those runs and passes than Hoolahan. Mayby Pilks when he has a good day. Also in counters his job is make that space by getting front of one or two players with his dribbling. Yet again we dont have too many players that can almost certain get past of players like Fellaini like Hoolahan did several times in the game. And this was him having a average day in the office. Like zipper already stated rest of middlefield were worse and they shouldnt give up more balls than attacking middlefielder as they are in more comfortabe zone with more options. Only big fault in Hoolahan is that he dont score enough, but at the end neither does Özil for Real Madrid standards, but thats why they had incutting wingers previous season. We need in my opinion option for him as his style doesnt always work and we could use sometimes more threat from distance, but stop slacking him fulfilling his role when players around him are not doing what asked. He keeps himself playable and he gives good game advancing passes near box and loses ball there less than our other centre midfielders. You really cant ask him more than passing for good crossing situations for wide players, if RvW is holded by two players, he isnt confident enough to shoot and players behind him wont make runs forward. Great link up player and playmaker, not so great shadow striker, but first is his role and we are looking player for that second role at least if you believe what tabloids are writing.

[quote user="Highland Canary"]One of the significant differences with the West Brom game Herman is that we were knocking on the door of relegation. The game was a ''must win'' and the team came out with a win-first attacking mentality as a result. This is simply not Hughton''s preferred approach to matches as Holt, for example, discussed recently in the media .[/quote] For a last time. We didnt change any major tactics between those 10 unbeaten and WBA & Man City games. We played exactly same way. This is just something peope want to make up in from the thin air that they could keep on with their agenda. Quite similar as "Howson and Redmond are so talented lad, but we didnt get nowhere because of that old bastard Hoolahan who lost all the balls" Stat proves both of these false. We have small problems with delivery, but that is one reason we wanted a striker of his level. He is quite much more clinical that what we had previous season. Also in Everton game we showed quite much improvement of getting forward a bit faster than previous season. Mayby it was because we had Bennett instead of Snoddy, who knows, but Hughton is trying to work with issue. That is reason we also bought Fer to play as other of our deeper middlefielders as he has the skills to get that ball onwards fast. Anyway people need to stop modifying facts for their own agenda. Sometimes you are wrong and sometimes you are right, Just learn to live with it and stop twisting the truth. And sorry Highland this is not pointed only to you. You just gave me good example.

Well we have two holding players to make overlapping and incutting wingers possible. So that is reason why I called it deep middlefield. Our unit got up quite fast and we had more than tree or four players supporting the attack near the box. We really didnt sit that deep all the game along, just lured them bit further on the pitch and made their attacks quite comfortable for our defence. But yes I agree to disagree ^^

We tried to press and get the ball at first 5-10 minutes. It didnt work. Not that we would have pressed very high or with lot of men power, but we started pressing when they got over middlefield. After that I think we just tried to pull them enough high that we could counter trough the wings as Howson and Bradders couldnt open the game with short passes. In my opinion tactic worked quite well and we used pressing few times after that when whole unit was up in the positions. This is something that Hughton wants. Strong solid formation that our defence wont get in too many 1 vs 1 where bigger teams will punish us because of quality difference. I would love us to have more posession, but without improvement of passing in our deep middlefield it would be useless to use our legs for pressing and then just lose the ball again. Better get the ball deeper in our own area and use Hoolahan or whoever plays in pocket to link up with wingers when short passing is working bad as saturday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAtdPAENJwg if I compare it to this, the tune is so much better and it sounds as it should sound at 2012. I dont know if people mean 1950 version of song as this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPVn9eLOkF0 In my opinion that is better what we sing now, but still I would take Isaac''s version. It just have that "lets sign together" tune from start to end. I woudln''t touch lyrics thought as that will always be hard for the fans ^^ even if new lyrics would be better. It is not perfect, but right way to go in my opinion and it would sound amazing if we would get +10k of our fans sing it around the CR :)

By the way to the add that Wes lost ball less than Howson and Johnson his passes and dribbles created more cross, free kick and shooting situations than any other player from our starting 11 at saturday. So even thought he wasnt effective as normaly he was better than rest what we had. Ofc you could say that is his job to create those, but when you add his tackling record and passing record on that same role you can do the math and think again who failed and in what. Anyway as much I would like to see Fer and Tettey on the middlefield I doubt Hughton would drop Johnson after one poor game. Also as we struggled in playmaking I doubt we have two strikers against Hull on the field at same time if not trailing. So if Snoddy is fit and Hughton trust Bassong is already in 90 min shape I think we will have formation like this. ------------------------RvW---------------------- Redmond ------ Hoolahan ----- Snoddy -------------Johnson---------Fer -------------- Garrido - Bassong - Turner . Whittaker Redmond can be changed on Bennett, but Elliot isnt at his best on left and neither is Snoddy so I think this is stabile. Olsson could play there too, but I think that as he is saved for a tactical sub as he was bit behind in fitness in pre-season. Had a hard time to chose between Turner and Martin and I personaly would prefer Martin as his positioning is so good and he is good with ball too, but I think Hughton has huge trust in Turner and his raw strenght.

Yeah I agree we will at least need one player this summer to give us some depth for pocket role and no need to leave it for winter as quality players are very rare then. Also I agree that we should get that CB. We ofc have 4 fit centre backs plus Martin next week as Seb is comming back and there we mayby could take a bit risk if we cant find any suitable with reasonable price this summer.

[quote user="mrs miggins"]4-4-2 with fer and howson in midfield, hooper and RVW up front if fit enough. Thats what i''d like to see us try. (people who say we tried that last season- we didn''t have Hooper and RVW or the beast that is leroy fer then did we.)[/quote] Yeah we didnt, but that doesnt change a fact that Howson isn''t playmaker and neither is Leroy Fer. If we struggle to make play with 3 middlefielders when there is Hoolahan and Howson on at same time, we will struggle quite much more with Hooper placing other of them. Ofc we can try and see where it leads us, but I''m quite confident with 4-2-3-1 with Fer and Snoddy comming to strenghten it. I''m not also so sure that our wingers are at best in 4-4-2. Olsson and Bennett probably would prefer that formation as they are both fast enough and prefer crossing instead of cutting in, but Snoddy and Pilks/Red are different case.

They really sign big names. Osvaldo is great player at his best, but luckily for us he has terrible attitude and personality which can be other side of the coin and really cause some troubles in the team and with the fans and staff of the club.

Change Hoolahan and Howson and I agree ^^ To put it simple our middlefield formation started game like this O----------------O--------------O ----------------------------O------- --------O---------------------------- We didnt get no where as Howson and Johnson couldnt get trough the first press. First Bennett dropped a bit down to help Howson. Didnt help. Then Hoolahan started to drop down and BRING the ball trough the press and our formation looked like. O----------------------------------------- ---------------O------------O----------O ----------O-------------------------------- Only way to pass there from our creative players was either Redmond or try long ball to RvW. Still Hooahan got trough that many tmes even thought he lost the ball few times too, but really if he has to play so much out of place and still can get the job done, you really have to blame someone else than him. When he played where he should play he just looked isolated as RvW even thought there was passing routes that Howson just couldnt find. Also Howson didnt do anything better when he got to play in the pocket. for example that one counter where he had ( I at least assume it was Howson) Tettey on right and Johnson comming behind left. He just made the wrong choise when Hoolahan would have been more comfortable in that situation. You really cant expect Hoolahan to wrestle against Fellaini & fellows and not lose a ball once in a while. He didnt have his best day, but still as our whole middlefield was average with execption of Tettey who was really inspiring with his energy, you cant put the blame on Wes. He moved well, he was availeable and he started few very good looking attacks and made some room for that middlefield with his dribbling that was so hard for us to pass by. I know that for some of you small player who is good only in dribbling and passing is luxury to have, but see where and how many times he lost the ball and what kind of passes and dribbles he made and you start to realise what he did for us in Everton game when you compare that for Howson or even Redmond who got praised even thought he lost the ball equally easy few times and had hard time with positioning when we defended. Still both of these players with were straight after Whittaker as my man of the match as without them we wouldnt have that needed creativity what sometimes loses the ball for us, but many times give us the goals we need. Okay Howson didnt have easy day as Snoddy was away Snoddy is nice guy to have on the wing as he wants to make plays where Bennett would like to get those balls behind fullbacks and Johnson had awful day even his standards what comes to short passing so he was quite lone if Wes didnt come down to help him. If he wants to get that third middlefeld place on our starting line up he needs to start learn how to give that simple pass, move for better position and get it back. This is area where both Tettey in deep slot and Howson in forward slot are light years ahead of him. That dull sideways pass for Whittaker, Bennett or Johnson or even our center backs and bursting move for free space is something that his game lacks badly and same time it is key for succesful playmaking if you dont have huge variety of long passes to make opponent pay for getting too close of him.

Oh yeah and for those who want Hooper for 10 spot, if we struggle to make play with 3 middlefielders, imagine only two on the field. Hooper isnt creative player.

Hoolahan was best of our starting middlefield trio. Only reason he "had a bad day" was that he had to drop down to get the ball from the feet of or two other middlefielders who couldnt find a way trought Everton''s pressing. All the minor chances came trough to him. Clever passes behind fullbacks and getting us trought that first press. Cant really say he was in worst 5 of our players today. Lost ball few times, but so did praised Redmond and imo both had good game. Not that any of our players would have done abysmaly wrong Then to added that that we dont have really other playmaker I would strongly advice us keeping him on the field. Johnson was worse from our todays middlefield and Tettey was inspiring when he got on the field. Also cant see us playing Howson - Hoolahan - Fer at same time so hopefuly in next game we see Tettey - Hoolahan - Fer. Both Fer and Tettey are players that can play many roles and both of them have played in pure holding role before, so it really isnt that hard to fit them behind Hoolahan. Fer could take the holding role, but he offers so much more forward than Tettey so would be waste to use him there. Ofc if we sign new 10 in next week, mayby we can see him on the field.

Not that I wouldn''t smile as they are losing, but they have played quite well and dominated before ManU''s first goal. Difference between talent is just too much for them and lack of second plan makes them lose these games.

Other than Hoolahan part I agree. Hoolahan in my opinion was great in first half. Few times he runned to the tackle, but had 3-4 great passes that gave us chance to attack and got over quickly Everton''s pressing. From 3 starting middlefielders he was way over other two. Barkley''s goal was great hit, but Howson hesitated a bit at first when closing up which gave him that time to shoot.

I talked with Villa fan while watching our game and heard they got 2 penalties which only 1 was really penalty and Vermaelen was given unjust red card ^^ could explain a bit why they won. Other than that our guys had a good game and only reason we defended so much was that our middlefield gave ball away too many times. When we had the ball we attacked with full strenght. Also by looking our sub bench before the game those subs would have been my choise too after Redmond started to fade and Johnson - Howson had problems with defending our back four. Anyway as someone already stated here, go support Aston Villa, if you cant watch us play without complaining ^^

Decent game as I said at half time. Great to see Whittaker in shape as he give us more threat on right side than Martin does. Our passing game needs to improve or we will have hard time against those sides we should be able to beat. Johnson didnt seem to be in form at all, but after Tettey came on the field our cover for centrebacks was so much better as he covers a lot of area. I would hope we try next game with Tettey - Fer pairing to give us more mobility and better passing. Anyway happy for the point and most of guys did well on the field even thought we had to counter more than play our own game. Cheers lads!

Wonderful header from wolfie! Also first good building up from Redmon and we score immediately. Great job from both of them.

That is how you play fullback! :D Damn he has good two feets

God Johnson''s and Howson''s building up play was frustrating. Bradders literaly gave ball away few times with good counter chance and Hoolahan had to drop at they level too many times to get our unit forward. Other than that decent half, but lot of room for improvement. Redmond and Bennet both have been good, but Redmond''s final ball comes either too late or he makes wrong choise. If he can start to find his teammates better he will be great addition for us. Hoolahan and Wolfie were bit isolated at times, but Hoolahan at the moment is so important player on the field when we miss Snoddy. All of our chances and half chances came trough him. Wolfy makes good runs in channels, but other than that he has been bit out of game. Both centre backs played quite well. Turner even took few risks with the ball to maintain posession, but few times kicked it out where it wasnt needed. Martin took unnecessary card, but other than that good game from him. Both fullbacks were a bit in trouble at some times. Whittaker made couple of few good tackles, but lost the ball ankwardly couple of times. Garrido was too easy to beat when 1 vs 1, but when unit was in formation he was solid. Have to raise thumbs up for Whittakers eager to get forward and shoot when opportunity. His forward runs gave us lot more options and forced opponent to defend him a bit closer. Anyway a bit dissapointed our middlefield and hopefuly we can make better second half, but as said decent game thus far. Didnt remember how much I have missed football at weekend ^^ OTBC