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[quote user="rieg77"][quote user="1st Wizard"]Bang another nail in the managers pine suite.[/quote] I''m sorry Wiz, you''ve gone too far this time. You are honestly stating that you want Norwich to lose this weekend?? What a wonderful supporter you are! Doubtless you aren''t even bothering to go and will take delight if we lose. And all this on the assumption that someone else would do a better job.[/quote] Gone too far this time? He ALWAYS wants us to lose. And listen, does ANYBODY honestly think that if we change manager, everyone will stop moaning, the River End will stop whinging, and everyone will be behind the manager? The most depressing thing is that this will never happen. As long as we live and follow football there will be a section of fans as at every club who want to oust the manager. I don''t believe for one minute that Wiz will ever stop his campaign to destroy all things NCFC, even if we change the manager. Which is precisely why the Board pay as much attention to him and his views as he deserves. I trust Wiz will be sitting with the home fans at Crewe - what use is he to us in the Norwich end...?

Although George Burley is supposedly a good manager, how on earth can we spend years chanting abuse at him and then welcome him to our club? Some people are suggesting Martin O''Neill. For me this just confirms how deluded and unrealistic some fans are. George Graham? Bobby Robson? No, we need a young, up and coming manager with a proven track record of getting a Championship club promoted. Surely the likes of Paul Jewell would give their right arm to come to Norwich. All Delia has to do is give him a call.

[quote user="DumbleDelia is Magic"] Give him a chance!?  It''s December 8th!  He''s been given 22 games and we have been woeful (not to mention our failure to stay up in an easier Premiership last season).  Of the 11 clubs you mention who have ''struggled'' 8 those have had big financial difficulties which have hampered their chances of getting back in the top flight.  We don''t have those difficulties.  If we give him many more ''chances'' we''re going to find ourselves staring at 2 successive relegations in a row [/quote] If the Board have screwed things up as badly as some make out, how come WE haven''t got big financial difficulties? Just because it''s difficult for everyone else to re-motivate their players after relegation (how many of the relegated clubs are currently sitting in the top two places?) doesn''t mean we shouldn''t sack Worthington for also having the same problems. We should emulate Ipswich - sack our manager for not taking us straight back up and then hire a lesser manager and have even less success.

No, no, no, don''t cloud this oblique swipe at Norwich with facts about West Brom. If we want to believe that they kept all their relegated players then let us believe that, it helps validate the idea that what Norwich have done is utterly wrong. We should have prevented players from returning to their home countries... I dunno, by confiscating their passports?

[quote user="DumbleDelia is Magic"] This is what he is basically saying.  I find this an appalling statement.  Why haven''t we adopted the "hands off" approach which Palace have with Andy Johnson?  It looks to me like we''re looking to offload Deano in January and are trying to get a good price. Thoughts? [/quote] I see what you mean. A bit like Jordan''s "you have my personal gurantee that we will be promoted as champions"? Which player (at any club) ISN''T for sale if the price is right? Any anyway, Deano has a pretty large say in it. By all accounts, he himself turned down the moves in the summer. If he''s now saying "actually, I want out of here" then perhaps we''d better start getting used to it, as the club won''t keep a player whose heart isn''t here. He IS replaceable - there are lots of other strikers in this division who are scoring goals but with lower price tags than Ashton....

Why should Worthy be sacked for carrying out the strategy of the Board? Judging by this article, he is doing a fine job of emulating Charlton! Check it out: http://football.guardian.co.uk/Match_Report/0,1527,1657775,00.html

[quote user="1st Wizard"] Yeah, keep the faith, snigger, laugh, giggle and lol, yet another defeat or at best, a draw, when will you all learn?. Worthy = rubbish football, tactics and potential. [/quote] Wiz, why do you bother? I mean, really, why? If you hate the team, the players and the club that much, and have so a low opinion of it all, why do you bother? There are hard-core Ipswich fans out there with a higher opinion of our club. In what way exactly do you support Norwich?  

I see where you''re coming from, but I disagree with some of your conclusions. If you don''t keep ''plugging away'' - i.e. trying to improve, what is there? ''Give up''? All that phrase means is that the players and staff are sticking to their guns, trying to work through the slump we are in. Worthy''s never been known for his sparkling interviews has he, but who cares about that, really? How do you now that Worthy has refused to sign any flair players as you claim? We''ll never know WHO he tried to sign in the summer, but wasn''t able to get. Players like Hux, willing and available to come to Norwich must be very few and far between, and with plenty of clubs chasing them. I wouldn''t call our players cloggers either, if anything one criticism has been that they haven''t got stuck in enough, which is why he was after players like Etuhu, surely? Why did we go 2 down at Coventry? The second goal was an individual error by Davenport. I don''t see how you can blame the manager for that?!! But other games like Wolves and QPR yes, that would be a fair criticism. I always think you can criticise the manager for a lot of things, but to suggest that under a different manager a player wouldn''t make individual errors...? But anyway... Worthy Out? OK, who do you want to replace him? Perrin, Souness, McLeish, McCarthy? They''re all or soon will be available I guess. We can start all over again and go round the loop one more time. Worthy will go to one of those teams and so it goes on. Or better still, Hamilton''s not at a club at the moment is he? He has experience in this division!

[quote user="DumbleDelia is Magic"] Once again, the one''s who want Worthington to stay are drawing on past glories.  The last time I checked I thought we were trying to be a progressive, forward thinking club?  How can wanting a manager to stay based on what he did 2 or 3 years ago be forward thinking?  At the end of the day, Worthington has offered little in the last 2 years to suggest he is the man to take this club forward.  Relegation in the easiest Premiership since it was formed, woeful performance after woeful performance this season and embarrassing signing after embarrassing signing.  Oh but lets not forget, he saved us from getting relegated 5 years ago!  ALL is fogiven  [*-)] [/quote] DD, there''s a small flaw in your agrument though. Even Pompey (in the Prem, so can attract higher profile manager and pay higher wages) can''t attract managers like Dowie, Rednapp, McLeish, all of whom'' sucess is in the past follwed by more recent failure, or Warnock, who has never really had success. Given that, you name me a manager who is enjoying current success and who we could attract! It would have to be someone doing it at a lower level, ergo unproven at this level. If Worthy goes (which he won''t this season), who would replace him, other than a manager with more recent failure than success at our level? You think through as many managerial appointments as you can remember: how many of them were enjoying success when they moved. How many were out of work (because of previous failure) when they joined a club? EVERY manager will eventually fail! One day, Chelsea fans will call for Mourinho to go because "he''s taken the club as far as he can and it''s time for a younger fresher manager". If we change, all that does is keep the merry-go-round going, it rarely guarantees success or failure. Controversial point: if Rioch or Hamilton had had the money that Worthy has had, would they have had the same success as we have in the past few years?

[quote user="1st Wizard"] Sorry, but I have a right to question decisions made by our overpaid fool of a manager, and I will continue to do so whether you like it or not!. [/quote] Wiz, please explain what you term ''overpaid''. Personally I don''t know how much he earns, so I''d welcome your insight. You clearly know how much he is paid and how much other managers are paid in order to reach your view that he is ''overpaid''. Please carry on questioning his decisions though, that''s fair enough.  

I guess the players'' support for the manager hinders some people''s mission to unseat him. Clearly they must all be lying, so it''s very unhelpful. When the media need an interview every-other-day to fill the back page, what do you expect the players to say? It does end up being a bit repetitious, I agree. You''re right, our results have been poor this season. How big a part of that picture do you think the manager is? Take Burley for example. Ask any Ipswich fan circa 2001 and they''ll tell you he was a brilliant manager. Ask them again circa 2002/3 and he was a rubbish manager. Hearts fans will tell you he was a brilliant manager. In fact, look at most clubs. Those doing well "have a great manager" and those doing badly have a "rubbish manager" according to their fans. Sunderland fans think McCarthy is rubbish now, saying "he''s signed all the wrong players". But 15 games ago he was a brilliant manager and had got all the right players. Now they''re ''in crisis'' and ''in terminal decline'' according to their fans. What do you think: McCarthy: good manager or crap manager? Worthy: good manager having a crap season or crap manager? And when you were standing outside City Hall in May 2004... good manager or crap manager? There are very few managers that have consistent success or consistent failure, which suggests there is another factor involved.  

All very true. I also look at other clubs at the moment to gauge what''s going on here, and to get some perspective. At the moment, fans of Newcastle, Birmingham, Sunderland, Villa are all calling for the head of their manager saying "he''s taken the club as far as he can" etc etc. You get the feeling that the managerial merry-go-round is only just starting up with the sacking of Perrin. They''ll all change. Some will be better off, some not. Had they not changed, some would improve, others not. The manager of Doncaster is top dog at the moment and I''ve heard some commentators say "he wouldn''t look out of place in the Prem"... and yet Donny are 9th in the Conference or something. I''m becoming more and more convinced that the manager''s role in the success of the team/club is a lot less than people think. It''s still big, but not as big as people think. The performance of my staff at work has more to do with their own skill and motivation than it does my managerial skills. Sure, I have a role, but it''s really down to them, they''re the experts in their respective fields. Has Warnock suddenly become a good manager after 6 years of mid-table averageness at Sheff Utd? I''d say probably that the players have got the bit between their teeth, are on a roll, and are fired up now that they can see a chance of promotion. Whereas our players still think they''re too good for this league and aren''t giving 100%. It''s funny how in-demand Burley is now. People say "he''s really a good manager". But most Ipswich fans couldn''t wait to ditch him when they came down saying he''d taken the club as far as he could. They panicked, sacked him and... carried on downwards. Maybe it wasn''t him, it was mainly the players who''d gone as far as they could at that club and had lost heart. Just a thought or two.

I disagree with some of the responses - based on our overall performance last season, we do belong in the Championship right now - i.e. we were not good enough to remain in the Prem. We aspire to be in the Prem, that''s the difference. It''s an attitude, a state-of-mind thing.  

I listened to Canaery Call last night and one caller was talking about getting back to the Prem where we ''belong''. We''ve been here before, have we not, for 9 of the last 10 seasons? I think it explains our current position. Many of the fans, and the players, think we belong in the Prem. You can see the same mentality at Palace and Soton, and Wolves etc. and it really is an achilles heel. Commmentators on yesterday''s Wolves game were talking about how they''re a big club with a good stadium and training facilities and belong in the Prem. Yeah, tham and many other clubs at this level... Changing manager only works if it changes the players'' attitudes and expectations, and the fans'' too. Right now, I reckon many of the players think they only have to turn up at places like Millwall and we''ll win. The fans certainly think so. And that attitude has NEVER worked here or anywhere else. The sooner we and the players start believing that we''re only better than other teams in this division if we work and aspire to be, and that we belong wherever our results say we belong, the sooner we will start to perform like Reading or Sheff Utd or Luton, none of whom think they ''belong'' in the Prem. Coincidence?

"Whoever gets the job (when a change is made) will, I am sure, get plenty of time. Unlike fans of other clubs I think that we City supporters are a pretty pragmatic and fair minded bunch. " You are joking, right? The new manager would get about 5 games. If there was no improvement half the ''supporters'' on here would be saying they never wanted him anyway, he was the wrong man for the job. As for us being any different from other clubs'' fans... some other fans can hardly believe that after all the success Worthy has brought to this club, after just a handful of defeats there is a clamour to have him sacked. When you look at it objectively, it is ludicrous. A touch of ''what did the Romans ever do for us?''. Anyhow, I''m hoping that we can put this whole manager change thing to bed for a while now - he''s not going and the Board are not going to sack him. Let''s focus our debate on how the players and manager we have can turn things around. Who should be played where and with what tactics, how we (the crowd) can motivate the players back to winning ways and the confident quality play that we know they are capable of....

Yankee - I would say that we were very quiet on Saturday. There were a few moments of noise, but everyone seemed very subdued. Last night was different. Despite feeling utterly demoralised by recent results, it''s as if the fans were determined not to sit on our hands, and seemed to say "we''re going to push you players over that damn winning line if it makes us hoarse doing it!" Although not the loudest, it was the most determined and sustained chanting that I think I''ve been involved in this season. Did they perform well? In parts, yes. We''ve played better this season and got nowt, and confidence was clearly low, but we created some decent chances and looked solid at the back.

Why is an own goal a negative? Who cares how it went in? I''m sure some people will see us winning as a negative, but there you are.It was a solid performance built on fragile confidence. But the team kept going. There were some good individual performances from players with things to prove such as Jarrett, Hendo and McVeigh. Plus the defence looked really solid - and Cardiff are a half-decent team.

Yankee - at about the time you were writing the post about us ''forever moving towards the bottom of the league'' I was in the Barclay taking part in one of the best acts of supporter determination that I''ve seen in a long time. And we''ve moved up the league as a result.I know it hardly helps your cause when the team and manager begin to dig themselves out of the hole we''re in, but with the tremendous help of the 12th man tonight we started to do just that, and I was proud to be a part of it....

Balham: "After the Birmingham game, we were apparently back to the way we have performed 99% of the time over the last five years (which presumably is something he is happy with) - this being a period in which we''ve won 11 games out of 55 and failed to win away all season." I think you''ll find that the stats ''over the last 5 years'' are not those. Can anybody explain why the benchmark for form is now ''the last 55 games''. Seems an odd number to me... unless you''re using that stat just to back up your argument? Plus, I must have dreamt the away wins at Ipswich and Brighton then! Can we start using ''the last 100 games'' or something, just to give it a different perspective? Or the last 8 games, as is more normal. And I agree, over the last 8 games we have been rubbish. Following on... whoever said the Board have their heads in the sand must themselves have their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears singing ''la la la''. The Board/Delia etc. have said on numerous occasions that they are not happy with the results. I don''t think anyone disagrees that the results are appalling. We, the manager, the Board, etc. just all have different opinions on what we do about it. Some fans say make the manager a scapegoat and sack him. Others say support the team and give him a chance to dig us out of this mess, even if he did create it. By all means let''s have this debate, but please don''t suggest that just because I disagree with how to resolve the problem means I don''t think there is a problem.

Hmm, I''m suspicious now of new users with few posts to their name coming on here just for a bit of flaming... but at the risk of biting when I''d do best to avoid: I think Worthy''s quite right. Exactly how are the fans supporting the team at the moment? There were people around me in the Barclay block C on Saturday (and I expect it will be the same tonight) trying desperately to get some chants/songs going, but were met with a lacklustre response. Many perhaps felt too despondent to join in I guess. Of course we ''pay our money and have the right to our opinions'' but with a deafening silence from the fans we can hardly be claiming to be supporting the team. We all know what the fans can do if we get behind the team, and Greeno was doing his best to urge us to do just that, but we didn''t. Is it the fans'' job to motivate the team or vice versa? Say what you will, but I suspect the Wednesday fans and players were the beneficiaries. And that''s hardly what we wanted... was it?* *1st Wiz and one or two others excluded - that''s precisely what they wanted.

How likely is it that after a change of manager, everyone would be eternally happy. We would win every game, play the right players, formations and tactics. Fans would agree with every substitution and every player loan would work out. For the forseeable future the Board will not sack Worthy. Worthy will not resign (viz. Bruce, Moyes et al.) So we have a choice. Support the team, or don''t support the team. Go figure which is more likely to get us moving up the table.

Wiz, I believe you are now so far up your own backside that you''ve completely lost sight of what this football lark is all about. Exactly in what way are you a ''supporter'' of Norwich? When who runs/manages the club becomes more important than the football that the team plays on the pitch, I respectfully suggest that you are losing the plot.

Over here... in the Barclay, not the moaning River End!

Ahh, if only we had loyalty like Ipswich. Sigh. After all they''ve been through, and still getting 18k season tickets. It''s a shame that we''ll never measure up to them I guess. Yankee, you must be right, we are the least loyal supporters in the world.

OK, bye. Can you hand your ticket to someone on the 2000 long waiting list then? Maybe they''ll ''support'' the club. I''ve paid for my ticket (not £30... where did you pay that much for a Sheff Wed ticket?!) so I''ll be there, cheering and enjoying my football. If we play well and win I suspect the mood will be very good. Who knows. Ah yes, if only we''d listened to the doubters sooner.... say, early in the 2003/4 season when they were saying ''Worthy is not the right man to get us promotion''. No, not then I guess. I also told everyone we''d get relegated. See, I was right.