Defensive Problems - It's not the back Four Fault!

[Ulf Ottosson 0]

 

I have seen a number of posts blaming Fleming, Doherty, Louis-Jean etc.. and it was the same last season. The bottom line is that we are not playing well defensively as a team. The key problem as I see it is Huckerby on the left wing. It just throws the rest of the team out. Central Midfield cover across creating gaps in behind which the CBS have to come out and cover. Don''t get me wrong he trys to play defensively and works hard but he''s just not a left winger. It''s hard for him to both play a defensive role that is needed by every midfield player and be are main creative outlet.  We were rock solid at the back when he played up front - ever since Worthington started playing 4-4-2 with him on the left we have leaked goals - it got better in the prem when we played 4-5-1 but it just doesn''t work in a 4-4-2. This also link in to Drury loss of form. 

The solution is obvious drop Leon and play Hucks up front with Deano with two solid banks of four behind them until Worthy does this we WILL ship goals.

 

[no1canary 0]

but football is about scoring goals ultimately. so our aim then, is to score more than the opposition do. i''d rather a 2-2 than a 0-0.

and i think this season, we will score than we let in, so therefore, tactics are fine.

[sheded 0]

I`ve always said that Hucks is out of position on the left wing Ulf ...  and your analysis has  a logic to it !  I also think he should  be free to  roam  around a centre forward area  ,  where he will be a constant worry  to any defence  , Nigel is NOT  utilising the assets  of a player like Hucks  , period !

[LinkNR9 0]

Ulf - both of the goals so far have been the result of moves down the right / centre, and nothing to do with the hole on the left side of midfield. The right side of defence (MLJ and Flem) looks frail and will be the source of many more ''goals against'' this season.

You''re right when you say that we must defend as a team, but you need (in particular) intelligent midfielders working together as a unit to achieve this. Jarrett will doubtless settle down, but Andy Hughes can only see one pass ahead, and not the two or three passes in advance that quality defenders / midfielders can see and move into position to deal with. 

[DumbleDelia is Magic 0]

Sorry Ulf I don''t agree with you.  The problem is we are missing a Malky type figure.  Someone who can shout and bellow and organise the back four into a decent shape.  We have got good defenders.  They just have no organisation

[ZLF 286]

[quote]I have seen a number of posts blaming Fleming, Doherty, Louis-Jean etc.. and it was the same last season. The bottom line is that we are not playing well defensively as a team. The key problem as I se...[/quote]

It is a good point that the three working midfielders can not give the same cover as a 4 man version of the same.  However i would change your title to its not Just the back four fault, for whilst the midfield is again overstretched the posiotional play of theback four has been poor too.

Like you I do not want to see Hux waste his energies defending as a midfielder, it takes himm too deep, he is not good at it and I would rather he scare our opponents rather than shuffle between players pretending to provide cover or thinking about a header...

IMO it is one of worthys biggest challenges, who to play hux in midfield without exposing the defence  - other than hux as a striker , which even I have given up on now, the only alternative is for city to go to a 5 man defence; bearin g in mind a 4 man version cant organise themselves a 5 man version would be a communication disaster waiting to happen.   

OTBC

[Evil Monkey 52]

Your title is right in that the goals leaked so far (all two of them! CRISIS!!) aren''t the fault of the back four - both have pretty much been a combination of MLJ and, to a far lesser extent, Flem... so the back two would be a more accurate description... and, as someone has already pointed out, those back two play on the right side of the pitch!

Its not fair to blame the defensive problems on the likes of Hucks - he does a bloody good job on left wing, and has improved the tracking back side of his game.  But Hucks has been there for a long time, really, pretty much since Worthy decided to throw Svensson, Leon and Hucks on together, and it has got us goals! Who can say that scoring five goals against both Burnley and Walsall in that season is a bad thing????

Considering his tendency, when playing up front, to wander onto the left wing, leaving the other striker on his own, it makes perfect sense to play him there and put another striker in the middle to partner Leon. And also considering that Hucks has a natural ability to play either position, to say he is being played "out of position" is simply wrong.  Has Hucks ever complained about it???

[Tumbleweed 106]

Blaming Hux for our defensive problems? Extraordinary.

I''m with DD, we have no organisation at the back. The defenders have little idea of who is where and which opposition player to cover. It results in two players going for the same man leaving one unmarked. A little through ball and you have someone unmarked with a clear shooting chance. It happened time and time again last season and is already in evidence this season.

Apart from a better defensive coaching which I have been banging on about for nearly two saesons, we need that Malky replacement and midfielders who can actually track back properly and be aware that they need to support the defence or cover when someone gets dragged out of position.

I even saw Ashton clearing the ball on Tuesday- from moves resulting from open play too!

[Putney Canary 0]

Interesting thread - I think to an extent you are all right (judging by radio commentary, your comments on other threads and what I saw last season).

- Defensively last season we improved when Safri came in

- We want Hucks sharp for attack, not expending energy tracking back, he is our only link to attack (Marney could be an option on the left when settled into the team). He isn''t a natural left winger, but when played as part of a front two he drifts left and doesn''t support his partner properly.

- It sounded like Crewe counter-attacked us effectively in the second half and we were lucky not to concede another, as our full backs pushed up too much (especially MLJ, sounds like he was out of position a lot?).

Presuming that we aren''t going to get another defensive coach in, what can we do better with what we have today. Is there a formation other than 4-4-2 that can make the difference?

Now I am no formation tactical expert, but could a 4-1-3-2 work?

--------------Green-----------------

MLJ-------Flem-----Shacks-----Drury

---------------Safri-----------------

----Marney----Jarrett------Hucks----

---------Leon---------Deano---------

Safri linking up defence to attack, he can break up play (protect the defense) and distribute well, enabling the defense to push forward more quickly (we defend too deep). Marney/Jarrett/Hucks to push forward when we are in possession to feed Leon and Deano (take advantage of their pace). They pull back when we are not in possession. If we are struggling to get possession in midfield (other teams will play us by stuffing the midfield) we can drop Leon and play Hughes to win the ball there, turning to a 4-1-4-1. Or put Hughes next to Safri making a 4-2-3-1. Or drop Leon back to make 4-1-3-1-1. Would these formations serve us better than the old 4-4-2? Would we be sacrificing width? Or have I been playing Football Manager too much?

[sheded 0]

[quote]Your title is right in that the goals leaked so far (all two of them! CRISIS!!) aren''t the fault of the back four - both have pretty much been a combination of MLJ and, to a far lesser extent, Flem......[/quote]

Nope ! but then again, Hucks rarely complains about anything LOL ...  at the risk of repeating myelf though , he shouldn`t be continuously stuck deep on the left wing !  this has to be Worthy`s orders ,  and just leaves Hucks  always having to battle through the regulation  2/3 defenders   , who don`t mind conceding  free kicks  way off the penalty area  , whereas  they would think twice about tackling him anywhere near the box !!! 

[Robbo007 0]

Your formation is pretty much what we play Putney Canary.

Can anyone remember Hucks playing up-front?! It didn''t work as we had no-one to make chances (think we got turned over by Bradford or someone when Hucks played up-front a while back)

I''m of the theory that its lack of organsiation at the back where hte problem lies. We need someone who can grab the defence by the throat, and when needed, shout "get out of the ****** box"

Drury doesn''t speak (god knows how he became captain). We need someone in the mauld of big Matt Elliot of Leicester in their heyday

[Salopian 1]

Hux being attack-minded is not the problem - a lot of teams, such as Manure, play a 4-3-3 formation. We can count Hux as one of the three front men. But it means that the three man midfield must realise that they have to keep their shape and position. If one of them does a Francis and spends a lot of time well forward, the other two must cover.

Obviously this is all predicated on three good players in the midfield, and means that Marney is a midfielder who has to track back, when he is fully match fit. It means also that we need someone who can tackle and then pass accurately.
This is where we seem to be failing at the moment. JJ may have similarities to Francis, but Marney and the other midfielder (presumably Safri)must link defence and attack fluently, and cover for JJ when he goes forward. This seems to be something that Safri is well able to do.

Otherwise we shall have the spectacle of a panicking defense hoofing the ball over the midfield.

[Ulf Ottosson 0]

Some good points made here are some responses :

Hucks does ver to the left wing - but so does Henry it doesn''t do Arsenal any harm he can still do this up front as long as the rest of the team know what he is going to do.

I agree a 4-3-3 with flexible good be good but we''re not Man Utd I say stick to a tried and tested 4-4-2 I would play against Palace - Green, MLJ, Shackell, Fleming, Drury, Marney, Safri, Hughes, Brennan or McVeigh on the left with Hucks up front with Deano with Leon on the bench - Harsh but sometimes your best TEAM does not include all your best players.

Yes the goals have been down the right but the lack of shape caused by Hucks on the left affects the whole team.

But this is a minor problem at Home games particular if we put chances away but away from I think we may come a cropper playing this - I hope not.

The question is when did Worthington change from a dour defensive coach a la Rioch and into Kevin Keegan?