Worthy out if Jason Shackell do no stay in the first team!

[XXL16 0]

Shack was absolutely brilliant today, liked Neil Adams said Shack was going to shout at the defenders to push up in the second half, also great clear off the line in the first half, kept Didier Drogba very quiet today, was he the new Malky?

I am sure it is Worthy''s mistake NOT to play Shackell at the start of the season, he had to response to that!!! What''s the hell we need Doherty?

 

[Northern Canary 0]

He was great. I think hes really going to be great for the club. Especially next season (whichever league we''re in).

I thought he was great

[SS 0]

Worthy will keep him in the team for a while now. He said on the radio he was his man of the match.

[BIC 0]

I thought he was extremely good too. Be nice to see him and Charlton/Docherty in the middle. That''s got to be our central defence for next season.Wouldn''t mind us getting a shiny new right back too.

[no1canary 0]

he will be in the team for a long while to come. he looked the best defender we had and this was against chelsea! big things to come for him.

[silver fox 0]

[quote]Worthy will keep him in the team for a while now. He said on the radio he was his man of the match.[/quote]

Can this really be the same Jason Shackell that our poster ''Worthy Nigelton'' believes should not be playing in the team.  You must be really p----d off now because that is 2 matches on the trot that he has been our best defender.  Even our own manager thought he was man of the match against Chelsea.

Hopefully at long last ''Worthy Nigelton'' you will admit that at 20 years old Shackell is good enough to play in the first team.  He hasn''t shown any nerves, his confidence hasn''t been shattered, and more importantly he was actually marshalling our defence against Chelsea, and trying to push them upfield. 

Months ago I said that this young man would go on to become a team captain one day and I still stick by this statement.

[Gentleman Jim 0]

I was voicing his introduction in the latter stages of last season, we were winning consistently and "cruising" home to be Div 1 champs.

He would have gained both experience and maturity in a successful team and been ready for introduction into the Premiership at an earlier stage than this.

I was also at that time offering Leigh Bromby, our one time loanee, as a transfer target, I think he and Shack would make a good young centre back duo and we should still make efforts to get him.

 

[Northern Canary 0]

the clearance that he did (the diving header) was just class. At the moment hes my favourite defender although obviously i try not to have favouritism.

[SS 0]

Did anyone else find it ironic that Docherty was named player of the month before the Chelsea game

[XXL16 0]

[quote]He was great. I think hes really going to be great for the club. Especially next season (whichever league we''re in). I thought he was great[/quote]

Hi Northern Canary, what I saw and heard from Shack on last Saturday, I am quite confident if he will given chances to play week in week out, he should be the next Malky MacKay, to orgranise our defence well. He talk on the pitch although, did not talk to me yet!!!

[ZLF 274]

The boy oozes class and ability - which means Worthy must be about to drop him

During the second half he was the ONE player to keep urging the team on and pushing the defence to keep a shape, move up the pitch etc.  Who is it with just 6 (ish) league starts and which two between them have around 1000?  The naive novice on this pitch was not Shacks, it was the pair I can no longer name.   

The boy is a natural and was easily our MOM on Sat IMO, 4 more games like that and he will seal the player of the season award too. 

 

OTBC

[DumbleDelia is Magic 0]

It''s great to see the lad getting some experience at the back.  He does look very assured and comfortable.  I couldn''t help but notice the similarities between him and Terry on Saturday.  Both tall, fast and uncompromising.  We might have found our next gem from the academy!

[Worthy Nigelton<br><br><br><br><br>Evening News Sports Page Headline 8th August 2007:<br><br>Henderson joins Dereham Town. 0]

[quote]Can this really be the same Jason Shackell that our poster ''Worthy Nigelton'' believes should not be playing in the team. You must be really p----d off now because that is 2 matches on the trot that h...[/quote]

Ha ha ha!! I knew this was coming.

Alright Silver Fox here''s my response:

As I''ve said on many occassions, I rate Shackell VERY HIGHLY. I still stand by my statement that now is/was not an ideal time to bring in a young defender. I can''t see how you can already judge him as a rip-roaring success on the back of 2 games at home in which we have conceded 6 goals. How can you say that for 2 matches on the trot he''s been our best defender - were you at the Man City game? Their 2nd goal was totally his fault, and Adam Drury was outstanding in that game.

I''ve always thought he''s "good enough" as you put it, I just think it was too big a risk to bring him in at this time in a season and I stand by that, our defence has exactly become water-tight since his arrival has it? He did play very well against Chelsea and okay against Man City, but surely, you cannot call bringing him in a major success just yet....can you?

[ZLF 274]

WN - it takes 5 players (4 defenders plus a keeper - before we get to midfield etc etc ) to be water tight and we have not been that all season.  However the performances in both games have been assured and shown great maturity - he has completely outplayed half of the defence and while drury was better against Citeh, Shacks was our best defender on sat. 

Its not just about the goals but the reading of the game, positioning and cajoling of senior colleagues that left such an impression on sat.  Once again Flem was more concerned about having a go at Stuart in the first half than actually defending the goal.  At centre back Shacks has looked the part and when alongside a better defender than Flem perhaps we will be water tight - both Doc and Charlie have played consistently better than Flem and we need to get our best players on the pitch.   Flem as captain?  I saw more leadership from Shacks on sat than in all games from Flem (or drury) all season.

You are right that there was a risk - but on that basis shacks would never have played - next season too risky too as we may not get the start needed to get re-promoted??  You have to take a chance - would you have still had Wayne Rooney in the youth team?

 

OTBC

[Worthy Nigelton<br><br><br><br><br>Evening News Sports Page Headline 8th August 2007:<br><br>Henderson joins Dereham Town. 0]

[quote]WN - it takes 5 players (4 defenders plus a keeper - before we get to midfield etc etc ) to be water tight and we have not been that all season. However the performances in both games have been assur...[/quote]

Zippers, usually you look at things very objectively and I enjoy reading your posts, although I don''t agree with all of your opinions - for the vast majority I do.

However, on this occasion the views expressed on this board are completely knee-jerk. Shackell has had a good game against Chelsea - I don''t dispute that, but how can you possibly call bringing him in a success already? HE''S PLAYED 2 GAMES!!!!

Yes he looks good, and as I''ve said numerous times I expect him to be a good player for us. But to say how I was wrong about bringing him in already is ridiculous on the back of one performance against Chelsea. If he puts in assured displays week-in-week-out until the end of the season and continues next season I will hold my hands up but I do still feel this was a bit of a risk and you can''t say its came off completely already.

Also, in response to your comment about next season also being "too risky" I would agree that it is always a risk with youngsters and you do have to take a risk at some point, but surely its a more calculated risk at the beginning of a season when we''re not in a relegation dog-fight?

I think by the last line in your post you have summed up my whole point. He''s played one average and one good game for us since he''s been thrown in and you have made a comparison to Wayne Rooney - is this not a tad over the top? Also, if I remember rightly, David Moyes used Rooney vary sparingly from the bench before he started him right from the off didn''t he?

[Worthy Nigelton<br><br><br><br><br>Evening News Sports Page Headline 8th August 2007:<br><br>Henderson joins Dereham Town. 0]

One more thing I''d like to add, is that now he''s been put in we should keep him in until the end of the season regardless.

[ZLF 274]

[quote]Zippers, usually you look at things very objectively and I enjoy reading your posts, although I don''t agree with all of your opinions - for the vast majority I do. However, on this occasion the view...[/quote]

Success is a relative concept; I have judged him a success by comparing him to his more experienced colleagues in the 2 games he has played - IMO he has been significantly better than either Fleming or Edworthy in both games and I feel that neither have played a game as well as he had against Chelsea all season; if the question is has he successfully kept the opponents at bay?  No - a failure there I agree.  

Of course judging him on just 180 mins mens any assessment must be made with qualification that it is early days yet - however it was enough to convince Worthy to ditch Helveg at the start of the season - as equal an over-reaction in my view.

I have not compared Shacks to Rooney other than to use him as an example of if he is good enough then he is old enough.  Shacks is considerably older and not subject to the same media attention.  To compare him to Rooneys ability would indeed be ludicrous.  However like Rooney Shacks has had a slow introductionto the game over nearly 2 seasons now - that is going beyond measured, and like Rooney he does appear on the very early evidence to have the ability to succeed in the prem. 

The only bit we disagree over really is the bit about risk - my view was that the club was defensively so dire that playing shackell was no risk to the club at all compared to potentially avoiding relegation; while you rightly put up another view that exposing him to his defencive colleagues could ruin any potential ability by killing his confidence. I have posted in support of this argument. 

However in last 180 minutes he has demonstrated more defensive and leadership ability than either his two senior colleagues have all season; and that suggests he could help improve our defence if paired with better partners, ie Helveg and Charlie or Doc in the coming games.

 

OTBC   

[Worthy Nigelton<br><br><br><br><br>Evening News Sports Page Headline 8th August 2007:<br><br>Henderson joins Dereham Town. 0]

[quote]Success is a relative concept; I have judged him a success by comparing him to his more experienced colleagues in the 2 games he has played - IMO he has been significantly better than either Fleming o...[/quote]

So, basically we agree that it was a risk to throw him in and gamble with a loss of confidence, but so far, it has been a succesful gamble? Although, it is too early to judge completely... as we both agree.

Well why has Silver Fox (who I originally responded to) posted a rant of "I told you so" directed at me if it is to early to judge?

(Sorry, I know you can''t answer that)

[Morph 19]

[quote]So, basically we agree that it was a risk to throw him in and gamble with a loss of confidence, but so far, it has been a succesful gamble? Although, it is too early to judge completely... as we both ...[/quote]

WN, how has playing him now been a gamble with regard to a blow to his confidence? What must the performances of the previous back four and Shacks inability to convince Worthy to play him, have done to his confidence?

As a player I would have been wondering what I have to do to convince the manager that what I had to offer was superior to what was already on show. How do you think he feels when he sees one defender kept in the team (Fleming) when one his colleagues is benched/dropped for less poor performances (Doherty)?

Going back to your earlier comments about knee-jerk reactions to Shackells two performances, I can''t see why people would behave otherwise. What has been on show has been poor beyond belief from a number of the previous back four. All Shackell had to do was come in to the side and perform better than those we already had there. I think he''s done that and more so it''s no wonder he''s getting rave reviews on this message board. He''s shown more leadership qualities in his two performances than you''ve had all season from Fleming. An ability to organise the back four well beyond his tender years.

ZLF, you comment that you don''t think he''s been a success at keeping his opponents at bay in his two performance so far. He is one of four at the back there and he''s shown more than two of the others at keeping his opponents at bay. Does that make him a failure? No. Is the defense still a failure? Yes. But he''s only one of four/five.

Worthy has to be brave between now and the end of the season and leave Shackell in and use the remaining games to find the right partner for Shackell to give City a decent backbone. Whilst we''re not down I can''t see us staying up, the other teams around us have got organised a lot quicker than City have - if you can say that we''ve got organised.

...

[ZLF 274]

[quote]WN, how has playing him now been a gamble with regard to a blow to his confidence? What must the performances of the previous back four and Shacks inability to convince Worthy to play him, have done t...[/quote]

I am with you on this Morph - I agree that shacks has been one of our best players for the last two games - my point was with WN about whether shacks can have been a success when the team has conceeded 6 goals in those two games.  My point is what is the measure of success for a defender, playing well personally or the team keeping a, as no legs puts it, unsoild sheets.

 

On the latter he has not succeeded - but on just about every other measure I can think of he has - if only he was not handicapped by some of his so called senior colleagues...

 

OTBC 

[Worthy Nigelton<br><br><br><br><br>Evening News Sports Page Headline 8th August 2007:<br><br>Henderson joins Dereham Town. 0]

[quote]WN, how has playing him now been a gamble with regard to a blow to his confidence? What must the performances of the previous back four and Shacks inability to convince Worthy to play him, have done t...[/quote]

The first part of your post is a fair point.

In response to the knee-jerk question. I would say that it is exactly what I expected, but that doesn''t mean I agree with it. I don''t think that knee-jerk reactions of any sort are valid, even in these circumstances. You can''t start saying "Yeah he''s brilliant, I told you so" on the back of 2 games, which I think is a fair comment.

Nobody said he was a failure Morph - I think he''s been anything but and this brings me back to the whole point of this argument which is:

ITS FAR TOO EARLY TO JUDGE WHETHER OR NOT HE''S DONE BADLY OR WELL, OR WHETHER WORTHY WAS RIGHT TO PLAY HIM OR NOT.

And I agree, now he''s picked him he definitely has to stick with him but I still personally would have brought him in at the start of next season.

[Morph 19]

[quote]The first part of your post is a fair point. In response to the knee-jerk question. I would say that it is exactly what I expected, but that doesn''t mean I agree with it. I don''t think that knee-jerk...[/quote]

WN, my argument against that would be that waiting until next season would have been too late. It is probably too late already, but the defense has not been performing well at all. With every passing game the chances of escape are reduced. Worthy finally made changes to a back four that had been woeful over the recent games, something that many of the posters had already commented on. He had few options that he could use for the change, but as many posters have noted previously, Shackell had shown in previous outings that he was capable of something - his performance against Newcastle in the cup. It''s a real shame that Worthy has been so immovable in his team selection thinking that it''s got to the point where City are all but down before he tries to fix it. Shackell has shown us enough, irrespective of his age or first team experience, that he can handle the stage and should be allowed to stay in there til season end - just give the guy a partner who is capable of playing at the same level as him with the same committment and understanding. Is that asking too much of Worthy?

...

[The Great Drinkell 50]

We all seem to agree that J.S has had a couple of good games but now we need a player to guide him through the rest of the season - step forward Mr Charlton with your experience you can turn this lad into a consistent defender.

[silver fox 0]

[quote]Ha ha ha!! I knew this was coming. Alright Silver Fox here''s my response: As I''ve said on many occassions, I rate Shackell VERY HIGHLY. I still stand by my statement that now is/was not an ideal tim...[/quote]

Dear Worthy Nigelton, yes I do believe bringing him into the team has been a major success because despite his years he has performed far better than players with years more experience. I guess that at the end of the day we will have to agree to differ on whether he was brought into the side too early.

To be voted man of the match by your manager in only your second first team appearance, and  against the potential Premiership champions, speaks volumes for you as a player.  I believe if you asked Nigel Worthington should he have brought Shackell in earlier, if he was honest he would say ''yes''.

I have watched Shackell in the reserves, in the first team last season, and his rare appearances this season, and from day one I had no doubt that he would be a class central defender. 

Like other posters on this board I think Worthy now needs to partner Shackell with either Charlton or Doherty and maybe we might just be able to stop leaking goals.

Finally, I wouldn''t be surprised to see a premiership manager put in an audacious bid for Shackell if we get relegated. 

[Worthy Nigelton<br><br><br><br><br>Evening News Sports Page Headline 8th August 2007:<br><br>Henderson joins Dereham Town. 0]

[quote]Dear Worthy Nigelton, yes I do believe bringing him into the team has been a major success because despite his years he has performed far better than players with years more experience. I guess that a...[/quote]

"I HAD no doubt that he WOULD be a class defender"

I think that should be "I HAVE no doubt that he WILL be a class defender"

Anyway, one thing we can all agree on is that we have a great young prospect on our hands and that can only mean good things for NCFC