Let's hope Lambert is as ruthless as McNally

[Beauseant 0]

[quote user="Dion DublinLegend"]

 

Let''s hope that Lambert has the same idea: this looks an excellent line-up.

As a somewhat related aside, lots has been written already about Lambert shaking things up, shipping people out, bringing people in etc. etc. I don''t think major changes to the squad is a realistic proposition 10 days before the window closes and in the financial position we''re in. Lambert''s success or failure will depend firstly on his ability to identify his best team quickly and then deploy it in a formation that allows our best players to shine, and secondly on restoring confidence amongst the players as quickly as possible.

[/quote]

 

I agree, I can''t see any major change in personnel before the deadline. Having said that I think that we DO have sufficient quality at present, but that neither the correct line up or formation have been identified. If you look through the team selections for pre season it''s pretty clear that Martin wasn''t intended to be a starter, yet he got two against Wigan so he played against Colchester. WLY did well through pre season and scored goals, yet he has hardly figured, and it''s a similar story with Maric.Oh, and don''t even get me started on the treatment of Stefanovic! The whole thing reeks of indecision.

[nutty nigel 7,535]

Thing is Beaus, nevermind friendlies and untested combinations, last week we watched a team with a front two of Holt and McDonald supported by a midfield of Whaley, Hughes, Adeyemi and Hoolahan take Yeovil apart for 40 minutes in a competetive match. In that time they scored four and could easily have scored seven. At no time in the subsequent two games did Butterworth put that combination back on the pitch. I know we are only fans and they are the professionals but it really does beggar belief.

 

[Beauseant 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Thing is Beaus, nevermind friendlies and untested combinations, last week we watched a team with a front two of Holt and McDonald supported by a midfield of Whaley, Hughes, Adeyemi and Hoolahan take Yeovil apart for 40 minutes in a competetive match. In that time they scored four and could easily have scored seven. At no time in the subsequent two games did Butterworth put that combination back on the pitch. I know we are only fans and they are the professionals but it really does beggar belief.

 

[/quote]

Exactly right Nutty!

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Thing is Beaus, nevermind friendlies and untested combinations, last week we watched a team with a front two of Holt and McDonald supported by a midfield of Whaley, Hughes, Adeyemi and Hoolahan take Yeovil apart for 40 minutes in a competetive match. In that time they scored four and could easily have scored seven. At no time in the subsequent two games did Butterworth put that combination back on the pitch. I know we are only fans and they are the professionals but it really does beggar belief.

 

[/quote]

I blame Worthington!

The problem of formations and players hopefully has now gone with Butterworth and Gunn.

Pre season Crook sorted, first game Gunn/Butterworth, that ,no doubt, was what caused the breakup of a winning team and team Gunn!

We can only hope that Lambert learnt enough from the two shambles he has watched.

[Beauseant 0]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Thing is Beaus, nevermind friendlies and untested combinations, last week we watched a team with a front two of Holt and McDonald supported by a midfield of Whaley, Hughes, Adeyemi and Hoolahan take Yeovil apart for 40 minutes in a competetive match. In that time they scored four and could easily have scored seven. At no time in the subsequent two games did Butterworth put that combination back on the pitch. I know we are only fans and they are the professionals but it really does beggar belief.

 

[/quote]

I blame Worthington!

The problem of formations and players hopefully has now gone with Butterworth and Gunn.

Pre season Crook sorted, first game Gunn/Butterworth, that ,no doubt, was what caused the breakup of a winning team and team Gunn!

We can only hope that Lambert learnt enough from the two shambles he has watched.

[/quote]

 

Judging by the use of Celtic security staff to probe the pitch invasion it would appear that he and McNally don''t even share Gunny''s view that our stewards are any cop!

[nutty nigel 7,535]

[quote user="The Butler"]

I blame Worthington!

[/quote]

You''re as bad as Tilly you are[:O] Let''s give nutty a "starter for 10, wind him up and set him going like a clockwork car[O][au] Well I''m not falling for it this time [:|]

[8]Nigel... Nigel Worthington, Nigel... Nigel Worthington, Nigel... Nigel Worthington,

Nigel... Nigel Worthington, Nigel... Nigel Worthington, Nigel... Nigel Worthington,

Nigel... Nigel Worthington.............................

 

[:$]

 

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"]

I blame Worthington!

[/quote]

You''re as bad as Tilly you are[:O] Let''s give nutty a "starter for 10, wind him up and set him going like a clockwork car[O][au] Well I''m not falling for it this time [:|]

[8]Nigel... Nigel Worthington, Nigel... Nigel Worthington, Nigel... Nigel Worthington,

Nigel... Nigel Worthington, Nigel... Nigel Worthington, Nigel... Nigel Worthington,

Nigel... Nigel Worthington.............................

 

[:$]

 

[/quote]

Is that your prefered formation?

Good defence but not sure of the striking partnership!

[nutty nigel 7,535]

Prefered formation is always 442. Football is a simple game after all. Diamonds are a girls best friend and christmas trees are for fairies[:O] Formations aren''t always set in stone though. There should always be room for a Huckerby or Hoolihan but in order to set these players free, for the sake of the team, for every one of them a Gary Holt is needed too. I reckon this was the thinking behind Worthy''s much maligned signing of Hooooooze after Holt left.

 

[Dion Dublin=Legend 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Prefered formation is always 442. Football is a simple game after all. Diamonds are a girls best friend and christmas trees are for fairies[:O] Formations aren''t always set in stone though. There should always be room for a Huckerby or Hoolihan but in order to set these players free, for the sake of the team, for every one of them a Gary Holt is needed too. I reckon this was the thinking behind Worthy''s much maligned signing of Hooooooze after Holt left.

 

[/quote]

Bringing this back to the boundaries of sanity after some fairly amusing Worthy love displayed by Nutty [:p] , I should point out that the leading managers in today''s game disagree with you: Ferguson and Mourinho play variations on 4-3-3, Ancelotti is playing the diamond and Rafa plays the Christmas tree.

That''s not to say I disagree with you: we accommodated Hucks in a 4-4-2 because as you and Shack pointed out earlier we had other players such as Gary Holt, Svensson and McKenzie that were prepared to put the dog work in. Perhaps if we get the blend right (I wasn''t there, but you and other posters think we stumbled upon it 2nd half against Yeovil) we can make 4-4-2 work, but I''m not convinced this is the formation to get the best out of Hoolahan and I think he''s our key player, hence the idea of a 4-3-1-2 or a diamond. Even if we do stick with 4-4-2 I think it''s essential we get a quick left-back in who can exploit the space when Hoolahan inevitably drifts inside.

 

[nutty nigel 7,535]

Thing is Dion players like Hucks and Holt are few and far between. The fact that we had them both together was probably the catalyst for our season in the Prem. Hucks always gets the credit and Holt rarely does but I believe we needed them both to be succesfull. I watched a game in the Prem, can''t remember who against now but Drury and Hucks were attacking on the left wing looking to make space to cross the ball but lost possession. Holty was in the oppo box anticipating the cross. The other side broke away and we all feared the worst suddenly we won the ball back just outside our penalty area in the left back position. The player who made the tackle was Gary Holt. I was astounded. Drury was crossing the halfway line and Hucks was probably straightening his hair somewhere[;)] Now Holty wasn''t the quickest so he must have anticipated what was going to happen in order to get there. Anticipation is a skill as much as pace is. A while later a guy near me bemoaned the fact that Holt was in the team in front of Safri. He pretty much reckoned that Holt was dog sh*te and should never be in the side in front of Saf. But Saf wouldn''t have made that tackle and Drury/Hucks would have been blamed. I guess there''s a thin line between dog sh*te and dog work[&] Any formation needs the right combination of players to make it work. Managers like Ferguson, Mourinho and Rafa are at clubs that can afford to buy players with skill, pace and anticipation making it easier to implement different formations. Managers like Worthy and Lambert pretty well have to work with what they are given.

 

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]Ferguson and Mourinho play variations on 4-3-3, Ancelotti is playing the diamond and Rafa plays the Christmas tree.[/quote]Who''s on drums ?  Reminds me of a Bonzo Dog song that.[quote] Managers like Ferguson, Mourinho and Rafa are at clubs that can afford to buy players with skill, pace and anticipation making it easier to implement different formations. Managers like Worthy and Lambert pretty well have to work with what they are given.[/quote]Absolutely nutty, any manager who tries much other than 4-4-2 at this level will come unstuck pretty quickly I reckon.

[Dion Dublin=Legend 0]

[quote][quote]Ferguson and Mourinho play variations on 4-3-3, Ancelotti is playing the diamond and Rafa plays the Christmas tree.[/quote]

Who''s on drums ?  Reminds me of a Bonzo Dog song that. [/quote]

PMSL Blahx3! In answer to your question I think Keegan had an Animal-from-the-Muppets type haircut and all the enthusiasm to be a terrific drummer.

[ron obvious 1,502]

[quote user="Dion Dublin Legend"]

[quote][quote]Ferguson and Mourinho play variations on 4-3-3, Ancelotti is playing the diamond and Rafa plays the Christmas tree.[/quote]Who''s on drums ?  Reminds me of a Bonzo Dog song that. [/quote]

PMSL Blahx3! In answer to your question I think Keegan had an Animal-from-the-Muppets type haircut and all the enthusiasm to be a terrific drummer.

[/quote]"The Intro & The Outro."Long ago & far away .......

[Dion Dublin=Legend 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Thing is Dion players like Hucks and Holt are few and far between. The fact that we had them both together was probably the catalyst for our season in the Prem. Hucks always gets the credit and Holt rarely does but I believe we needed them both to be succesfull. I watched a game in the Prem, can''t remember who against now but Drury and Hucks were attacking on the left wing looking to make space to cross the ball but lost possession. Holty was in the oppo box anticipating the cross. The other side broke away and we all feared the worst suddenly we won the ball back just outside our penalty area in the left back position. The player who made the tackle was Gary Holt. I was astounded. Drury was crossing the halfway line and Hucks was probably straightening his hair somewhere[;)] Now Holty wasn''t the quickest so he must have anticipated what was going to happen in order to get there. Anticipation is a skill as much as pace is. A while later a guy near me bemoaned the fact that Holt was in the team in front of Safri. He pretty much reckoned that Holt was dog sh*te and should never be in the side in front of Saf. But Saf wouldn''t have made that tackle and Drury/Hucks would have been blamed. I guess there''s a thin line between dog sh*te and dog work[&] Any formation needs the right combination of players to make it work. Managers like Ferguson, Mourinho and Rafa are at clubs that can afford to buy players with skill, pace and anticipation making it easier to implement different formations. Managers like Worthy and Lambert pretty well have to work with what they are given.

 

[/quote]

It''s a fair point nutty, so let me ask you a question...if we''re going to play Hoolahan in a Hucks-style left wing but wandering sort of a role, who is our Gary Holt in this team? I''m not sure we have one, although OTJ and Gill might disagree. 

I don''t agree that only teams with Premiership standard players can experiment with different formations: the point of deciding on a formation is finding a system that maximises the effectiveness of the players at your disposal.

Incidentally I thought Gary Holt was a great player, and Mascherano at Liverpool reminds me a lot of him (I''m sure he''d be flattered by the comparison [^o)]). Not an all round player but simply a great destroyer.

[Shyster 0]

[quote user="Beauseant"]

First of all, my respect and commiserations to those who travelled to Brentford last night. I know how bad I felt listening to the debacle on the radio, so I really feel for you guys.

A good result last night would have made us all that more positive as the Lambert era dawns, but we didn''t get one, or even a performance. Having said that, other than us being down another three points, little has really changed. The worrying thing is that on the evidence that we''ve seen, it may take several weeks for any real and lasting improvement to show through. To those who have argued that Gunn should have been given more time I would suggest that last night, with his team and coaching staff, proved that, had McNally not acted, we would have almost certainly have been too far off the pace after 10 games to even have a shot at the playoffs. Yet again the story was one of underperformance, lack of backbone under pressure and total inertia in the technical area.

My worry is that Lambert now has to work with what he''s got, because if that''s the case we really are in deep trouble. Although Alnwick seems to have solved the keeping problem and Askou has improved the defence, we clearly have major problems.I''m not Doc''s biggest critic, and thought he had a decent season last year, but every game is now riddled with incidents where he fails to deal adequately with a situation, using resulting in him scything a player down in a dangerous position. However, the real worry is central midfield where we have yet to show that we can control games. As anyone who has ever played the game at a decent level will tell you, if you can''t control this area you will lose most of your games. To me, OTJ and Gill are both naturally holding midfielders, so playing both of them causes a problem. However, I suspect that the thinking is that this is necessary to accomodate Hoolahan''s wanderings. The result though is that unless Hoolahan dominates the opposition defence (yet to happen this season, despite the adulation for him on here), we end up sitting too deep and the supply to the strikers dries up. It sounds to me as if Cody and Holt were starved in the second half, with Holt in particular coming deep to try to get the ball. Once that happens your whole shape goes out of the window.

In my view Hughes needs to start as he is proactive and creative. I''m also going to go out on a limb here and say that Wes in a  free role is  a luxury we can''t afford until such time as we can dominate possession more than at present. When players work their socks off to get the ball there is nothing more demoralising than seeing someone go on a virtuoso run and lose it cheaply, and he does that way too often. Players like Wes are great when you''re on top, but with our current personnel and system that isn''t going to happen very often.

The bottom line is that we have players who don''t appear good enough . If Lambert agrees with that then the club must back him to get rid and bring in replacements (even if it means the dreaded loan system in the short term, given our proximity to the end of the transfer window). We now have a ruthless CEO and I suspect we have a ruthless manager, but having gone this far the board must go the whole hog and find the resources to allow Lambert to perform surgery on the squad, otherwise the effects of Team Gunn''s (collective) ineptitude will continue to haunt us.

[/quote]

To be fair Beau your just repeating what shyster''s been saying about Hoolahan for months.

[nutty nigel 7,535]

[quote user="Dion DublinLegend"]

It''s a fair point nutty, so let me ask you a question...if we''re going to play Hoolahan in a Hucks-style left wing but wandering sort of a role, who is our Gary Holt in this team? I''m not sure we have one, although OTJ and Gill might disagree. 

I don''t agree that only teams with Premiership standard players can experiment with different formations: the point of deciding on a formation is finding a system that maximises the effectiveness of the players at your disposal.

Incidentally I thought Gary Holt was a great player, and Mascherano at Liverpool reminds me a lot of him (I''m sure he''d be flattered by the comparison [^o)]). Not an all round player but simply a great destroyer.

[/quote]

I don''t think we have a Gary Holt to put in this team Dion. But that shouldn''t stop us playing Hoolahan. But I guess we have to accept the consequences that will cause. To win games we have to score more than the opposition so I would never agree to set out a team with no creativity in order to get a 0-0 draw.

I agree with your point about teams outside the prem playing different formations. Martinez did it with success at Swansea. But I think that a club in the state ours is right now probably needs to go back to basics and build from there.

Good thread this one[Y]

 

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]To win games we have to score more than the opposition so I would never

agree to set out a team with no creativity in order to get a 0-0 draw.[/quote]I used to get the impression that Worthington used to set out his stall with a "back 8", 2 banks of 4 a long way back at the start of games, almost as if getting to half time with a clean sheet was the target of the first half, and if we caught them on the break, all well and good - even at home.  This was before we signed Huckerby though I think.

[nutty nigel 7,535]

Indeed he did Blah. He got a lot of stick for it too. I think most of his early home games were drab dull affairs but I also think that was what was needed at the time. Pity we didnt have someone like that come in last season in January and grind out enough results to keep us up.

 

[Beauseant 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Indeed he did Blah. He got a lot of stick for it too. I think most of his early home games were drab dull affairs but I also think that was what was needed at the time. Pity we didnt have someone like that come in last season in January and grind out enough results to keep us up.

 

[/quote]

Unfortunately since the Worthy days we''ve had  a real glass jaw, and while there have been periods of looking good going forwards we have always been suceptible at the back. Like most City fans, one of the things I''ve always loved about the club is our commitment to playing passing football, but there is a time for pragmatism and grinding out results, and that''s not something we''ve shown any real aptitude for since we left the Premiership. All great teams are built on a stingy, solid defence, because, to quote the old managerial cliche, if you don''t concede you''re going to at least get a point.