Defensive changes

[ZLF 286]

17 goals in 10 league games do I need to say any more?

We need to stop deluding ourselves that this is good enough - continuing to conceed at this rate will mean over 60 goals conceeded which is relegation performance.

If we look at the goals on Sat Cahill was allowed to run far too far without a challenge before a simple cross to an unmarked Kilbane at the far post. People have commented about it being a break at pace but by the time Kilbane got the ball numerous city shirts had run past him like school kids eager to get on the goal line. One of the defenders should have had the awareness to stop their headless chicken run and actually picked up their man, prime responsibility goes to Eddie, Kilbane being the wide right player, then the centre backs to organise or cover and then Helveg. None of them did their job in a preventable goal.

The second goal again we conceeded far to much ground to Bent. Much harder to prevent but like Kamara for Portsmouth the game before we stood off the player and this time paid the price. Where is the responsibility or shape from the middle two?

The third goal was equally poor - Graveson was dispossed in the box (never a penalty) but the ball broke free and Watson was left unchallenged to collect the ball, look up, set himself and deliver a cross to the back post. Who do we find attacking Ferguson for the ball, not a centre back over even the right back, but a covering midfielder. OK Jonson is solid in the air but how can it be right that Eddie, Charlton and Fleming all cede responsibility for marking Ferguson? Washis aerial threat not known before he made an appearance?

Our defence is not organised or consistent enough throughout 90 minutes to keep Greeno unexposed - hence the very high shot count he has faced.

The only trouble is who do we draft in? There is only Helveg, Docherty and Shackell...

Personally I would use the Newcastle game to experiment by bringing in Helveg at right back and Docherty alongside Charlton.

OTBC

[StevenageFan 0]

I made the point about lots of goals being conceded on another thread where everyone was bigging up our defenders.  I was shot down in flames, now I am glad someone else has noticed the same thing.   The back four do look pretty unorganised when teams break against.  Okay I have only seen the TV games and listened to the rest on the radio, plus 50 minutes highlights on SKY.  

I thought Green didn''t look as sharp either.  Helveg definitely needs a proper chance.  He hasn''t played RB since facing Giggs, one of the Worlds best left wingers, and it was just after a heavy international schedule.  Okay Eddy played out of his socks over the next few games, but is now looking pretty ordinary.  I am not sure Doc is the right choice to replace either Flem or Charlton as all my spurs mates still say he is dodgy back there, but we won''t know until we try.  Why did we sell Malky?

[ZLF 286]

I too have concerns about Doc but until we play him we wont know if we will be stronger at the back or not.As for selling Malky its the same as the Iwan syndrome (got another if only Iwan was playing sat today!)- a good servant but clearly not good enough at prem level in my view.And can we really conceed many more goals than we are at the moment?OTBC

[StevenageFan 0]

exactly, give them a go - Helveg, Doc, Charlton, Drury

[a1canary 0]

Stevenage fan - don''t be so hypersensitive! I know the post you mean and i was one of the ones that replied or "shot you down in flames!" All i said was that the defenders had generally done well so far and that we have to defend as a team. Also that we were conceding as many because of sloppyness in midfield leaving strikers charging down on over exposed defenders. As i said, with the quality of striker you face in the prem, any defender is going to struggle in that situation.

HOWEVER!

I agree and have already conceded on another post that the defending v Everton was very poor and made exactly the points Zipper made, esp re the first goal where the whole back line ran towards the ball and Cahill leaving not just Kilbane all the time needed to pick a spot (see "DD''s "anyone feel like crying post?").

It is pretty amazing given all that experience in the back line and yet they defend like that. I would really hope, as you say, that Helveg wouldn''t have been that naive to leave his man like they did. I also suggested that Malky wouldn''t have let that happen either! But that''s another story! 

[stroud canary 0]

Eddie has been one of our best players this season. So Helveg at right back is not the answer at the moment.

We need a team to settle. Last year we virtually always new what the side would be. This year its different every game (and this is not down to injuries). We need to stick with a team and let them settle - within reason.

I think hucks down the left,Jonson on the right, Sven and Leon up front is our best option at the moment.

If we want to give Helveg a run, then probably centre midfield with Francis is the best way of getting him in the team. But personally would like to keep faith with Holt and Francis for a while.

The next month is crucial, we need a bit of consistancy.

[FilletTheFishWife . 0]

the defense is ok as it is.

helveg persistently conceded posession on Saturday. i see no logic which would explain why he would be less likely to do so at the back where the the consequences would be more severe.

doherty was pants up front so let''s play him at the back.

if he''s pants at the back too maybe we could put him in goal ?!

the problem is the midfield keep giving the ball away.

partly because the options in front of them are limited.

and partly due to sheer bad passing .

the law of averages means that the defence will concede more goals as a result but we''ve kept clean sheets too against wba, villa and spurs . remember?

[Super Shaun Carey 0]

Cobblers, how can you say that Eddie is now looking bad?

The guy is class, and certainly shows the scandinavanians a thing or two, and he was as cheap as chips.

I personally do not want Helveg at right back, or anywhere else on the pitch, until :-

1) He is fit

2) He has his eyes tested

3) Somebody checks his boots.

And, I wont even comment on your decision to drop Fleming, disgraceful

[StevenageFan 0]

a1 - sorry for being hypersensitive

Shaun -  I never said Eddy was bad, I said ordinary.  He was quality for 3 games when he got his chance and had deserved his place ever since, but Saturday all the back 4 looked pretty ordinary in my opinion.   When that happens as a manager you either give them a strong talking too, or introduce some competition for places by giving someone else a chance, pretty simple really and exactly what Nigel did when Helveg looked pretty ordinary.

Dropping Fleming is only suggested as we have a lack of height at the back and look pretty vunerable on set pieces and crosses, the Doc deserves a chance in his favoured position, would provide some much needed height and out of Charlton and Flem, Charlton is playing the best, again in my opinion.   If the Doc doesn''t bring anything extra to the defence then I would have no doubt in bringing Flem straight back in.   Having thought about it, it would also be a bad idea to change two defenders at once as they are supposedly getting an understanding, althougth Kilbanes goal put serious doubt on that.

[ZLF 286]

My point is that if we keep the current defence we will conceed around 60 goals - which almost certainly guarantees relegation. None of us wants that.

All the posts have been around how fantastic our defence has been. However we are seeing an increasing number of goals being conceeded that are down to errors in defence - all three on Sat for example. How can we have such a fantastic defence and still conceed so many goals - those same defenders simply are not doing their job.

Both centre backs and Eddie were positionally very poor for the 1st and 3rd goals after a cross came in from Drurys side. For the second goal Flemings challenge on Bent was far too weak. For crying out loud the next I will hear is that Eddie should be playing for England! What about his distribution - he has has been making Holts passing look good for weeks without a murmour on this board! Get real and get those canary coloured specs off.

Dropping Fleming - its a tough choice and I did initially type Charlton next to Doc. For me Charlton would simply appear to make a better partner than Flem.

I accept that defending is a team game - however getting the back 4 organised and in position is the back 4s own responsibility. Jonson at the back post against Ferguson should NEVER happen - one of the centre backs lost him and Eddie didnt pick him up as cover. If you dont do your job you get dropped - some one should pay the price - or was that goal Helvegs fault too???

However we have led a charge for a change for both doc and Sven to be dropped when they have failed to score - the same should apply when our defenders fail to defend. A change is needed - as I pointed out the options are not great. All I suggested was an experiment in a consequential cup game we are likely to lose anyway.

OTBC

[beelsie 0]

Good observations ZLF, I Said same things last season.  Until we win the ball in midfield and our off the ball running is more with it we will continue to struggle. 

Where does the idea come from? that our back four and midfield must run like chickens to fill the six yard area, instead of making an effective tackle with some one taking the responsibility to back up the tackler. 

We continually loose 20 yards of ball winning territory when under unnecessary pressure. Why Why do we come out of the stocks only when the first half has expired.

And someone somewhere said to include Mulryne ,IMO only when he is prepared to gain another yard of pace and works much harder on winning the ball himself then he can be afforded the luxury of using the ball. again, IMO he is a lazy luxury that we cannot afford to indulge.OTBC!!!

[ZLF 286]

I agree about Mullers. He was wanting last year in a lower league so there is no reason he should step up this season.I want to hear about a string of superb training and reserve performances to demand he gets a subs spot - without that desire he doesnt deserve a game - the same goes for Brennan who has also been mentioned.OTBC