SAFU2007 0 Posted March 9, 2009 What is draining money from NCFC plc?Attendances are consistently high and often excede the ''business plan'' expectations and are constant enough to allow for forward planning.Players have been sold at profits that run into the millions in the past 5 years (not including this year)Revenue from parachute payments equalled millions in the last 3 years.Revenue from 2003 promotion equalled millions. So I ask again. What is draining money from NCFC?My theory and my belief is some very astute accounting/business practice by the board.The off the pitch investments made by NCFC plc are investments resulting in payments to independant companies owned by SOMEONE? For example, IMO, the restaurant, hotel, and probably the shop , bars, match day mag are almost certainly going concerns/franchises of others and not NCFC plc. These are all profitable concerns and whilst they rely 100% on Norwich fans for income, they do not contribute profit to NCFC plc apart from lease/rent agreements. The profits, I suggest, are safetly in the hands of the owners of the franchises/leases and do not benefit NCFC plc .The ''off the field'' business at Norwich is certainly a going concern, the infrastructure payed for by NCFC plc, the business proceeds going to the franchise/lease holder. These are my own assumptions of where the money has gone and I would like someone with a detailed understanding and access to the up-to-date accounts to blow my thoughts out of the water...please. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desert Fox 0 Posted March 9, 2009 SAFU2007,You could not be further from the truth. This lot are not competent enough to manage a scam of Derbyesque proportions. The answer I am afraid lays in the money that has been sunk into trying to play at being a property developer. Apart from the fact that they were trying to do this at the top of an economic cycle (which has caught out many smarter companies than our Board) their main ''crime'' was to try to do this themselves without involving experienced property developers. Therefore, we have sank millions into the infrastructure needed to support a housing development that is unlikley to be built for many years. In teh meantime, the profit that this was suppoed to generate will be eaten away by interest and loan fees, meaning that the gamble of not investing in the team will falter dramatically. We will not go into administration (except in the unlikley event that the structured debt lenders force this), but we can look forward to many more years of the same. By this I mean bosmans and loanees.Whether we stay up or not this year wont make much difference, it is going to get worse before it gets better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucky green trainers 0 Posted March 9, 2009 [quote user="Desert Fox"]SAFU2007,You could not be further from the truth. This lot are not competent enough to manage a scam of Derbyesque proportions. The answer I am afraid lays in the money that has been sunk into trying to play at being a property developer. Apart from the fact that they were trying to do this at the top of an economic cycle (which has caught out many smarter companies than our Board) their main ''crime'' was to try to do this themselves without involving experienced property developers. Therefore, we have sank millions into the infrastructure needed to support a housing development that is unlikley to be built for many years. In teh meantime, the profit that this was suppoed to generate will be eaten away by interest and loan fees, meaning that the gamble of not investing in the team will falter dramatically. We will not go into administration (except in the unlikley event that the structured debt lenders force this), but we can look forward to many more years of the same. By this I mean bosmans and loanees.Whether we stay up or not this year wont make much difference, it is going to get worse before it gets better.[/quote]if we went down DF - what impact do you think this would have upon the share price???would £10 a share be enough to get a sale through in your opinion in the current market??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desert Fox 0 Posted March 9, 2009 LGT,The £30 a share is a complete illusion. This is the notional price that the Board have set for raising fresh capital (although after they had converted their own loans at lower rates). All asset classes except cash and gold have taken an almight tanking and there is no way on earth that anyone wpould dream of paying £30 a share. Your call of £10 is pretty much what I would have siad too.However, this is academic as I fear that the Board is prepring to dig in for the long term - they will not sell oy without making a profit. This means lots of belt tightening and the need to keep raping the playing budget. As long as they can continue to service the debt (number one priority for them) they can avoid the banks calling in the loans and buy time for the property market to recover.I know this sounds depressing, but I have never bought into the Saint Delia act. Their main concern (in my opinion) is to protect their investment at any cost, even if this menas many more years of dreary football. In teh end Chase caved in, but at least he could sell his shares - I cant see where a buyer is going to come from at the kind of price they are likley to want. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucky green trainers 0 Posted March 9, 2009 [quote user="Desert Fox"]LGT,The £30 a share is a complete illusion. This is the notional price that the Board have set for raising fresh capital (although after they had converted their own loans at lower rates). All asset classes except cash and gold have taken an almight tanking and there is no way on earth that anyone wpould dream of paying £30 a share. Your call of £10 is pretty much what I would have siad too.However, this is academic as I fear that the Board is prepring to dig in for the long term - they will not sell oy without making a profit. This means lots of belt tightening and the need to keep raping the playing budget. As long as they can continue to service the debt (number one priority for them) they can avoid the banks calling in the loans and buy time for the property market to recover.I know this sounds depressing, but I have never bought into the Saint Delia act. Their main concern (in my opinion) is to protect their investment at any cost, even if this menas many more years of dreary football. In teh end Chase caved in, but at least he could sell his shares - I cant see where a buyer is going to come from at the kind of price they are likley to want.[/quote]agreed df - in a funny way (assuming we start with c18k st holders and therefore average crowds of 20k plus) - NCFC are likely to be more competitve in league 1 than the champs...the prems latest tv deal is reported to be worth 5% more on last time,,,so despite the general economic downturn - its likely there will still be enough cash rich benefactors in he market prepared to have a punt for the time being,,,although its very likely there will be a real downward pressure on champs players wages,,,so - if we were to stay up - NCFC would still be an average champs side in terms of its playing budget...but in league 1 - i''m assuming we should be a top6 side...therefore - the club could find its company model works better in league 1...and that success and wins on the footy pitch would follow (if you define a top 6 league 1 finish as a success!!!)i too do not see admin as a real threat if we go down - and imo - it would seem league 1 could allow the club to return to profitabilty - without the directors needing to cover shortfalls...doncaster suggested the club are losing 10k a week??? in the champs...league 1= no losses for them...so i see the board toughing it out until the market conditions improve to acheive a sale on their preferred terms - but imo this could be 12 months away at the earliest... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grantroederdisaster 0 Posted March 9, 2009 Money is being drained from the club by - Overpaid players and other members of staff! The club spending much more on player deals than they''d like us to believe. - Well known that Roeder squandered £9M in his time! The bottom line is our budget is far higher than many clubs above us in the league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desert Fox 0 Posted March 9, 2009 LGT,I agree with virtually verything you have said except that we should not take top 6 status for granted (numerous predecessors such as Leeds and Forest suggest otherwise) and that it will take much longer than 12 months for asset values to recover. We are nowhere near the bottom of this drepression (i.e. not a recession), mnay serious commentators are talking about 10 years plus before asset values recover again. After the the 1929 crash it took something like 25 years despite the massive economic stimulus of WW2. The only good thing about this, is that there are many clubs weaker than us and this may make us relatively better off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desert Fox 0 Posted March 9, 2009 Grantroederdisater,Unfortunately my reading of the accounts does not support your theory. Canary Nut and Mr Carrow have gone at great length to show that teh real problem is siphoning off money from the team to fund failed non-footballing investments. Do you realise that how much money we have spent on land development in the last few years. Given that our level of debt has not changed and that we have not made any material loss, where do you think this cash has come from? No, not the Turners or Saint Delia.Sorry to disgree, but I getting really fed up with the myopia regarding how this club is being run. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucky green trainers 0 Posted March 9, 2009 [quote user="Desert Fox"]LGT,I agree with virtually verything you have said except that we should not take top 6 status for granted (numerous predecessors such as Leeds and Forest suggest otherwise) and that it will take much longer than 12 months for asset values to recover. We are nowhere near the bottom of this drepression (i.e. not a recession), mnay serious commentators are talking about 10 years plus before asset values recover again. After the the 1929 crash it took something like 25 years despite the massive economic stimulus of WW2. The only good thing about this, is that there are many clubs weaker than us and this may make us relatively better off.[/quote]i''m assuming we''ll be a top 6 side in league 1 purely because of our attendance income - which i presume carries more weight the further you venture away from other income streams - such as tv money in the prem - and chute payments and/or speculative investment in the champs...i''ll admit - i''m not hot on league 1 - but i''m assuming more clubs rely on the traditional income streams crowd gates/sponsorship/refreshments and players sales to pay their way...however - maybe benefactos also have a role in this league 2 - given the success of forest/swansea and bristol city in recent seasons - all having benefactor boards...given this last statement - it could be - that even with good crowds - if the board are intent on breaking even - we could stuggle to be one ofthe bigger fish in this pond too...ouch!!!regarding the depression - i''m assuming that after the g20 spring meeting - legislation to ''oulaw the shadow banking sector and offshore banking'' will follow - because as i suggested last autumn - imo,,,this is where most of the malpractice and fraud occured,,,in short the bust was engineered in this unregulated and untaxed sector - and with much of the western world virtually bankrupt...it would seem action to close the door on this sorry episode will follow...and when it does - only then will confidence properly return,,,and the rebuilding process can begin from a stable platform...and when that happens - i believe we will see a world reflation occur from the imf - or likely from a new international investment organisation,,,as sorus suggests - £2-3trillion should do it...i remain optimistic on this front - sure it will get harder in the short term - but i''m hopeful that by the autumn - some measure of the bottom will be properly felt...but agreed df - asset prices will take a good while to recover - but then inflation will mask this effect anyway...cos prices and wages will be allowed to rise to reduce the debt that individuals and governments now find hard to manage... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desert Fox 0 Posted March 9, 2009 LGT,I will bid you good night by saying that I agree with both your main points. Our league position and the international economy should have a self righting mechanism built, the only uncertainty is how each will take. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desert Fox 0 Posted March 9, 2009 should have said "self righting mechansim built in". Oh for an edit button on this BB! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucky green trainers 0 Posted March 9, 2009 [quote user="Desert Fox"]should have said "self righting mechansim built in". Oh for an edit button on this BB![/quote]lol DF and goodnight to you - but sure - the lack of a sound framework/plan,,,with attention to getting the basics rights and poor oversight will cost individuals/businesses/countries/the world in the end!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ron obvious 1,711 Posted March 9, 2009 [quote user="Desert Fox"]LGT,The £30 a share is a complete illusion. This is the notional price that the Board have set for raising fresh capital (although after they had converted their own loans at lower rates). All asset classes except cash and gold have taken an almight tanking and there is no way on earth that anyone wpould dream of paying £30 a share. Your call of £10 is pretty much what I would have siad too.However, this is academic as I fear that the Board is prepring to dig in for the long term - they will not sell oy without making a profit. This means lots of belt tightening and the need to keep raping the playing budget. As long as they can continue to service the debt (number one priority for them) they can avoid the banks calling in the loans and buy time for the property market to recover.I know this sounds depressing, but I have never bought into the Saint Delia act. Their main concern (in my opinion) is to protect their investment at any cost, even if this menas many more years of dreary football. In teh end Chase caved in, but at least he could sell his shares - I cant see where a buyer is going to come from at the kind of price they are likley to want.[/quote]This is pretty much the scenario I was suggesting on a different thread yesterday.I was going to add that it might even lead to a better team - eventually; it often seems to happen that a team rising from the lower divisions just keeps on going, perhaps because they have a team hungry for glory, who believe in themselves & have got out of the habit of losing.It''s also possible the property market might have recovered by then (BTW, strange things are happening round here, plus the cost of mortgages is plumetting, so it could be quicker than you think), so NCFC would look a lot better proposition all round & Delia could flog it to that elusive billionaire ....Who knows? It''s a funny old game in a funny old world. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paperclip 0 Posted March 10, 2009 [quote user="grantroederdisaster"]Money is being drained from the club by - Overpaid players and other members of staff! The club spending much more on player deals than they''d like us to believe. - Well known that Roeder squandered £9M in his time! The bottom line is our budget is far higher than many clubs above us in the league.[/quote]I''d be interested to hear how Roeder squandered 9 million in 15 months if you have more details - that''s not something I''ve heard before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tetteys Jig 851 Posted March 10, 2009 Cureton nearly £1m inc signing on fee and £8k per weekLappin on £8k per week still there, but not played in over a yearFotheringham on £8k a yearAgents £500k in the last 6 months, which seems reasonable to me given the 3 deals that them payment were involved in (Clingan, Hoolahan and Lupoli)44 players or so worth of loan fees at, say £50k a pop, so there''s just over £2mStefanovic £500kPattison £800ksounds about right[:O]just sounds like we haven''t been good enough at picking out the bargains Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
