Gunn

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,024]

17 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

It's not nonsense. He's 27 and has never managed to hold down a number one spot. There's a reason for that. He's one of only five goalkeepers to conceded 9 goals in a PL game out of God knows how many (tens of thousands?). He's never been in a team that's had a top half finish. His GA tally this year is again woeful so far. You're looking at one stat and ignoring a plethora of others.

I have not seen the highlights for the Plymouth game, I will assume you have, so out of the 6 conceded how many did he have a real chance of stopping?. Teams concede goals, not individual players, I accept within that there will be individual errors etc,. I am not trying to say Angus is a superb GK, I am just saying if your midfield/defence is not very good during a particular game there is a collective responsibility............

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

33 minutes ago, Desert_Fox_2 said:

I was at the game and even without the benefit of replays it seemed that Gunn should have at least got a hand to the Aziz goal. However, the root cause of the first 5 goals we conceded was that our full backs were out of position and this meant that Plymouth could exploit or overload the space with our two slow centre backs. The other part of our game that drives me nuts is the amount of times that we concede after given the ball away needlessly. The first two goals arose from us trying to play the ball out of defence in tight positions. I have noticed that this generally happens close to the left back position. I wonder if anyone has done any statistical analysis which compares the goals that we gain from playing out from the back compared to the goals that we lose from these errors?

 

Like you I was at the game and watched Angus after some of the goals went in. His body language wasn't good and I would have loved him to have got angry with the team because of their absolute joke defending. For instance I would have liked to him ripped Rowe apart for the second goal, tens of us were shouting as Plymouth had two players over a fre kick and nobody marking them. Then Rowe decided he would make a tame effort. Gunn should have run out of the goal afterwards and told him he was playing like a carefree butterfly collector and face up to the game.

That is why defending isn't always about defenders. It was a collective effort of failure Saturday. 70% in a game you concede six says something broke.

No pressure on the Argyle defence. Passes sideways in midfield. Rowe looking like he believed he is a superstar that we were singing about before the game. Hwang, clearly out of his depth for whatever reason but played becuase we had nobody else (then why play him?). Fassnacht neat and tidy but totally ineffective going forward. And Duffy, for once having a mare, nor having the quality of Hanley alongside to help him out but rather Gibson who looks lost with the ball at his feet. Yes he made some lunges but because he was out of position.

Argyle are a soft side that can be overrun but they won't roll over for you. It takes teamwork and effort. Walk out o the pitch and expect to just play them off the park but tapping it around means you aren't concentrating. You aren't ready to fight if you concede. Its a shame we have Fulham instead of a league game. Its a free hit when we should be hog roasting the players in training and expecting a full on performance on the pitch to make amends.

Finally, a word for the away support which many on here portray a silly kids with agendas. It was magnificent on Saturday. Singing from the start of the gates opening and right through the game even when 4-0 down. Plymouth supporters were amazed at the level of support still given in the face of humiliation. Perhaps those with disdain for many of them will show the same spirit in adversity. Or should we just discuss it and check the data.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

15 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

I have not seen the highlights for the Plymouth game, I will assume you have, so out of the 6 conceded how many did he have a real chance of stopping?. Teams concede goals, not individual players, I accept within that there will be individual errors etc,. I am not trying to say Angus is a superb GK, I am just saying if your midfield/defence is not very good during a particular game there is a collective responsibility............

This is absolutely true, of course. He's not an awful keeper, but the good goalkeepers sometimes pull off a save or two that gives you impetus. He doesn't do that. 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

25 minutes ago, horsefly said:

It has been widely accepted that in the 9-goal Southampton defeat Gunn was not personally culpable for any of those goals, and indeed made several good saves. In the Championship season when he came to us on loan, he was pretty much faultless. Many very good keepers find it hard to get in the first team when they play for top sides, it's part and parcel of a goalkeeper's lot, competing for one spot in the team.

Maybe that's true, but I don't think he ever played for them again after that (certainly not in the PL) so Hassenhutl clearly thought he was a huge part in that debacle.

[horsefly 4,301]

1 minute ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Maybe that's true, but I don't think he ever played for them again after that (certainly not in the PL) so Hassenhutl clearly thought he was a huge part in that debacle.

Why do you conclude that? It is just as likely Hassenthutl was responding to the outpouring of rage from Southampton fans who wanted "something done". Changing the keeper after a 9-0 defeat was very much an easy response, justified or not.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

Just now, horsefly said:

Why do you conclude that? It is just as likely Hassenthutl was responding to the outpouring of rage from Southampton fans who wanted "something done". Changing the keeper after a 9-0 defeat was very much an easy response, justified or not.

What a bizarre take that is. I bet if you look at the other 9 goal defeats in PL history, those teams didn't instantly drop and then sell the goalkeeper.

[horsefly 4,301]

1 minute ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

What a bizarre take that is. I bet if you look at the other 9 goal defeats in PL history, those teams didn't instantly drop and then sell the goalkeeper.

I'll look up the hundreds of 9-0 defeats in PL history to check if that is the case. 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I'll look up the hundreds of 9-0 defeats in PL history to check if that is the case. 

There's five cases of nine goals being conceded in PL history. So either those five GKs remained as the GK afterwards, or got dropped and then sold.

I can't be bothered to look it up, but my hunch is they kept their spot, or if they did get sold, probably slipped down a few levels and never came back to bite the team that binned them so flippantly. Angus will be another - Saints fans won't be turning round one day saying "I can't believe we let him go on the basis of one game that wasn't his fault. He's a top keeper now. What a waste".

Of that, I am 100% confident.... they were pleased he was binned coz he wasn't very good. And he still isn't.

[horsefly 4,301]

20 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

There's five cases of nine goals being conceded in PL history. So either those five GKs remained as the GK afterwards, or got dropped and then sold.

I can't be bothered to look it up, but my hunch is they kept their spot, or if they did get sold, probably slipped down a few levels and never came back to bite the team that binned them so flippantly. Angus will be another - Saints fans won't be turning round one day saying "I can't believe we let him go on the basis of one game that wasn't his fault. He's a top keeper now. What a waste".

Of that, I am 100% confident.... they were pleased he was binned coz he wasn't very good. And he still isn't.

And I'm confident 100% of Scottish fans (a somewhat bigger crowd than Southampton's) would say exactly the opposite.

[Desert_Fox_2 6]

56 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Like you I was at the game and watched Angus after some of the goals went in. His body language wasn't good and I would have loved him to have got angry with the team because of their absolute joke defending. For instance I would have liked to him ripped Rowe apart for the second goal, tens of us were shouting as Plymouth had two players over a fre kick and nobody marking them. Then Rowe decided he would make a tame effort. Gunn should have run out of the goal afterwards and told him he was playing like a carefree butterfly collector and face up to the game.

That is why defending isn't always about defenders. It was a collective effort of failure Saturday. 70% in a game you concede six says something broke.

No pressure on the Argyle defence. Passes sideways in midfield. Rowe looking like he believed he is a superstar that we were singing about before the game. Hwang, clearly out of his depth for whatever reason but played becuase we had nobody else (then why play him?). Fassnacht neat and tidy but totally ineffective going forward. And Duffy, for once having a mare, nor having the quality of Hanley alongside to help him out but rather Gibson who looks lost with the ball at his feet. Yes he made some lunges but because he was out of position.

Argyle are a soft side that can be overrun but they won't roll over for you. It takes teamwork and effort. Walk out o the pitch and expect to just play them off the park but tapping it around means you aren't concentrating. You aren't ready to fight if you concede. Its a shame we have Fulham instead of a league game. Its a free hit when we should be hog roasting the players in training and expecting a full on performance on the pitch to make amends.

Finally, a word for the away support which many on here portray a silly kids with agendas. It was magnificent on Saturday. Singing from the start of the gates opening and right through the game even when 4-0 down. Plymouth supporters were amazed at the level of support still given in the face of humiliation. Perhaps those with disdain for many of them will show the same spirit in adversity. Or should we just discuss it and check the data.

That's an excellent post. The only thing I would add to your analysis was that it was painfully obvious for the first 60 minutes that our only form of attack was to walk the ball out to half way line (Plymouth deliberately gave our CBs the space to do this) and then spread it out wide to our FBs. If we were able to cross successfully there was seldom anyone attacking the ball and if we lost it, this meant that our flanks were wide open with stranded FBs.

As soon as Sara was pushed forward into the 10 role we looked a much better team, espeically with Forshaw covering the gaping hole in midfield (which in part was due to the Mayor dropping too deep to play the 3rd CB because we had no full backs!). Idah looked much better making runs feeding off Sara than he did waiting for a quarter back style pass from deep in our half.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Desert_Fox_2

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

42 minutes ago, Desert_Fox_2 said:

That's an excellent post. The only thing I would add to your analysis was that it was painfully obvious for the first 60 minutes that our only form of attack was to walk the ball out to half way line (Plymouth deliberately gave our CBs the space to do this) and then spread it out wide to our FBs. If we were able to cross successfully there was seldom anyone attacking the ball and if we lost it, this meant that our flanks were wide open with stranded FBs.

As soon as Sara was pushed forward into the 10 role we looked a much better team, espeically with Forshaw covering the gaping hole in midfield (which in part was due to the Mayor dropping too deep to play the 3rd CB because we had no full backs!). Idah looked much better making runs feeding off Sara than he did waiting for a quarter back style pass from deep in our half.

Yes. We must get Sara further forward. Adam was looking for runs much like Teemu used to. Forshaw will give us that opportunity.

[Corbs1 89]

Over the years we’ve had so many top keepers, I personally feel we expect the City number 1 to be really good. Still remember Keelan, Hansbury , Cawston as 1,2,3 at same time I think.

Im slightly puzzled by our keeper policy recently, bringing in Long. I had high hopes for Barden but I admit I’ve not seen him live. Keepers are odd animals, one senses confidence in them, it permeates through, a la Chris Woods. I’d like Gunn to make a few more dramatic saves, get me off my seat with surprise, much like the Leicester keeper did recently. 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

And I'm confident 100% of Scottish fans (a somewhat bigger crowd than Southampton's) would say exactly the opposite.

He's played six games for them. Six. If they love him after 60, fine, but your point is not proven after six games. Especially when 50% were against giants like Georgia and Cyprus. 

[Pyro Pete 1,897]

I'll just leave this here:

On 24/09/2023 at 16:34, Worthy Nigelton said:

And on Krul, he saved many penalties (some in a World Cup semi no less), was a regular Dutch international,

Tim Krul made 6 (six) competitive international appearances for the Netherlands.

Against:

Turkey (twice) , Latvia, Gibraltar &.Kazakhstan.

Plus as a substitute in a World Cup quarter-final penalty shootout against....

Costa Rica!

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

1 hour ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Don't be a snob.

You can only play what's in front of you.

Take a look at Harry Kane's 59 (20 penalties) England goals. How many were scored against footballing "giants"?

You'd only include Germany, Italy and France. That would reduce 59 to 8.

In those 8 (3 were friendliesl) matches 3 were penalties.

Good luck taking 51 goals from Kane because they don't count as they aren't against "giants".

 

Opponent	Goals
Total	59
San Marino	5
Albania	4
Bulgaria	4
Germany	4
Montenegro	4
France	3
Malta	3
Panama	3
Ukraine	3
Czech Republic	2
Kosovo	2
Lithuania	2
North Macedonia	2
Poland	2
Scotland	2
Switzerland	2
Tunisia	2
Andorra	1
Colombia	1
Croatia	1
Denmark	1
Hungary	1
Italy	1
Nigeria	1
Senegal	1
Slovenia	1
Turkey	1

Yes but Kane has scored hundreds of PL goals against loads of different teams. To compare Angus Gunn to England's all time top scorer is a hell of a comparison.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

8 minutes ago, Pyro Pete said:

I'll just leave this here:

Tim Krul made 6 (six) competitive international appearances for the Netherlands.

Against:

Turkey (twice) , Latvia, Gibraltar &.Kazakhstan.

Plus as a substitute in a World Cup quarter-final penalty shootout against....

Costa Rica!

Yeah but what about the other points made about Krul?

You're doing it again, ignoring facts that don't suit - this isn't even a fact that does back up your argument, it's an irrelevant one about a different player.

[Pyro Pete 1,897]

Just now, Worthy Nigelton said:

Yeah but what about the other points made about Krul?

You're doing it again, ignoring facts that don't suit - this isn't even a fact that does back up your argument, it's an irrelevant one about a different player.

You've just belittled Gunn for having a few competitive appearances against smaller nations, in less than a year.

While ignoring the fact that Gunn kept a clean sheet against Spain, and only conceded a penalty against Haaland & Norway.

Yet you use Krul as the benchmark, with an inferior international career record over a period of ten years!

If Angus and Scotland make the Euros, he will immediately have a far superior international record than Krul.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

15 hours ago, Pyro Pete said:

You've just belittled Gunn for having a few competitive appearances against smaller nations, in less than a year.

While ignoring the fact that Gunn kept a clean sheet against Spain, and only conceded a penalty against Haaland & Norway.

Yet you use Krul as the benchmark, with an inferior international career record over a period of ten years!

If Angus and Scotland make the Euros, he will immediately have a far superior international record than Krul.

It's easier to get picked for Scotland than Holland! 'Kin ell. I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

Time will tell who is right about Gunn's career, but by the age of 27, Krul had been a far, far superior keeper, I don't think there's a football fan on the planet who would argue otherwise. I don't expect that change by the time Gunn is 37.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

15 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Yeah. That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm comparing a keeper to a striker. Nailed it. Gunn would totally score more than Kane if you took his gloves off. 😉

The point is that you can only play what's against you.

It would've been easy for a keeper to have nightmares against Norway or Spain or Cyprus or Georgia, etc. He didn't.

a striker isn't going to intentionally miss an open goal just because it's against a minnow.

It's six games! Six! Jesus wept.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

1 hour ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Holland? No. Scotland would beat Holland. The Netherlands could probably give us a game, though.

 

You couldn't beat Holland or The Netherlands.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

17 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Tell that to Spain.

After Saturday, you think it's wise, as a Norwich fan, to belittle other teams?

Have a day off. I have nothing against Scotland and want to see them do well. It was just a response to your message.