Ownership/Money/The Long Term

[king canary 8,751]

I know this topic has been done to death and many people are bored of it, but I found myself having several different trains of thought/questions looking through multiple threads and thought I'd put them in one place.

This season and especially our summer window has thrown into sharp relief the limitations a club of our size with our ownership model faces in trying to compete at the very top level.

So what do we already know...

1- We're debt free and in a very solid financial position

2- We have been burned by past experiences and thus have made the decision to exist as a self funding club

3- We spent less than any promoted team in the last 5 years (and possibly further back) on our return to the top division and significantly less than most of those teams.

4- Any wage budget we run in the Premier League really needs to be cut-able down to about £20-25m within two seasons in the Championship or we're in trouble.

This leads me to a few key questions (which I know can't actually be answered but still...)

1- If we stay up is this the sort of budget we can expect to see spent next season too (without player sales)?

2- If we go down we'll theoretically be one of the richest teams in the Championship- will we be able to flex our financial muscles?

3- If we spent an extended spell in the Championship, does our model rely on yearly player sales to balance the books?

Which brings me to my final point/question- what does this mean for our expectation/ambitions?

Do our finance dictate that all we can really expect is the odd season in the Premier League where we try and perform miracles by staying up on a shoestring? I know the idea of an established Premier League club is something of a myth outside of 6 or 7 teams but what else is there to aim for? As fans do we just have to accept that if we're in this division we'll likely be running a significantly lower budget than the other 19 teams? Is there an argument that as a Premier League we should devote more of our efforts to cup competitions? After all if our budget makes survival an extremely tough task, why not have some fun in the cups and create the kind of memories other fans dream of?

Is our long term financial future open for negotiation with our owners? I find it difficult to understand their longer term view as they make statements that can appear contradictory. We're told the club is open for investment/owners would sell under the right circumstances but they've also told us they've decided to pass the club on to their nephew and talked about not wanting to sell to foreigners at previous AGM's. So what is the case?

And finally as fans what is our role in all of this? Is it to accept that fact our owners don't have the cash and be grateful for the money/time/memories they have given us? Do we have the right to question their succession plan? I know many will argue it is their business, they can do what they want and if we don't like it we don't have to go- but to argue that to me misses the fundamental difference between being a fan of a football club and the customer of another type of business. Or is there the possibility that Tom Smith brings much more to the table than we know and his ascension doesn't just mean 30 more years of our current budgetary issues.

I know this is long, rambley and doesn't contain any actual answers but it can be useful to put thoughts down in one place. I'm really not sure where I sit as too much of what I need to know to make up my mind sits in the future. We shall see I guess...

[wcorkcanary 4,783]

20 minutes ago, king canary said:

I know this topic has been done to death and many people are bored of it, but I found myself having several different trains of thought/questions looking through multiple threads and thought I'd put them in one place.

This season and especially our summer window has thrown into sharp relief the limitations a club of our size with our ownership model faces in trying to compete at the very top level.

So what do we already know...

1- We're debt free and in a very solid financial position

2- We have been burned by past experiences and thus have made the decision to exist as a self funding club

3- We spent less than any promoted team in the last 5 years (and possibly further back) on our return to the top division and significantly less than most of those teams.

4- Any wage budget we run in the Premier League really needs to be cut-able down to about £20-25m within two seasons in the Championship or we're in trouble.

This leads me to a few key questions (which I know can't actually be answered but still...)

1- If we stay up is this the sort of budget we can expect to see spent next season too (without player sales)?

2- If we go down we'll theoretically be one of the richest teams in the Championship- will we be able to flex our financial muscles?

3- If we spent an extended spell in the Championship, does our model rely on yearly player sales to balance the books?

Which brings me to my final point/question- what does this mean for our expectation/ambitions?

Do our finance dictate that all we can really expect is the odd season in the Premier League where we try and perform miracles by staying up on a shoestring? I know the idea of an established Premier League club is something of a myth outside of 6 or 7 teams but what else is there to aim for? As fans do we just have to accept that if we're in this division we'll likely be running a significantly lower budget than the other 19 teams? Is there an argument that as a Premier League we should devote more of our efforts to cup competitions? After all if our budget makes survival an extremely tough task, why not have some fun in the cups and create the kind of memories other fans dream of?

Is our long term financial future open for negotiation with our owners? I find it difficult to understand their longer term view as they make statements that can appear contradictory. We're told the club is open for investment/owners would sell under the right circumstances but they've also told us they've decided to pass the club on to their nephew and talked about not wanting to sell to foreigners at previous AGM's. So what is the case?

And finally as fans what is our role in all of this? Is it to accept that fact our owners don't have the cash and be grateful for the money/time/memories they have given us? Do we have the right to question their succession plan? I know many will argue it is their business, they can do what they want and if we don't like it we don't have to go- but to argue that to me misses the fundamental difference between being a fan of a football club and the customer of another type of business. Or is there the possibility that Tom Smith brings much more to the table than we know and his ascension doesn't just mean 30 more years of our current budgetary issues.

I know this is long, rambley and doesn't contain any actual answers but it can be useful to put thoughts down in one place. I'm really not sure where I sit as too much of what I need to know to make up my mind sits in the future. We shall see I guess...

Just about sums it up Kaceyo, all the answers lie in the future, what we do know ,you covered in the first couple of paragraphs. If ,as some have suggested DF takes over from SW when he leaves then by that point the current plan will have succeeded up to a point otherwise why pursue it any further if it has failed.  Personally I find it refreshing that we are doing things differently and if the Club remains financially stable and our league position improves over time ( again, years not weeks) then I would back it for a few more years. Short of a large donation by a generous benefactor, i really can't see how we can do things differently at the moment.  The reasonableness of your post will no doubt get a reaction from the ' polarised ones' but they really only have more gripes than answers. It must be very difficult to rage against something that is beyond ones control, frustrating and ultimately pointless, I'd assume. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by wcorkcanary

[Rich T The Biscuit 676]

30 minutes ago, king canary said:

I know this topic has been done to death and many people are bored of it, but I found myself having several different trains of thought/questions looking through multiple threads and thought I'd put them in one place.

This season and especially our summer window has thrown into sharp relief the limitations a club of our size with our ownership model faces in trying to compete at the very top level.

So what do we already know...

1- We're debt free and in a very solid financial position

2- We have been burned by past experiences and thus have made the decision to exist as a self funding club

3- We spent less than any promoted team in the last 5 years (and possibly further back) on our return to the top division and significantly less than most of those teams.

4- Any wage budget we run in the Premier League really needs to be cut-able down to about £20-25m within two seasons in the Championship or we're in trouble.

This leads me to a few key questions (which I know can't actually be answered but still...)

1- If we stay up is this the sort of budget we can expect to see spent next season too (without player sales)?

2- If we go down we'll theoretically be one of the richest teams in the Championship- will we be able to flex our financial muscles?

3- If we spent an extended spell in the Championship, does our model rely on yearly player sales to balance the books?

Which brings me to my final point/question- what does this mean for our expectation/ambitions?

Do our finance dictate that all we can really expect is the odd season in the Premier League where we try and perform miracles by staying up on a shoestring? I know the idea of an established Premier League club is something of a myth outside of 6 or 7 teams but what else is there to aim for? As fans do we just have to accept that if we're in this division we'll likely be running a significantly lower budget than the other 19 teams? Is there an argument that as a Premier League we should devote more of our efforts to cup competitions? After all if our budget makes survival an extremely tough task, why not have some fun in the cups and create the kind of memories other fans dream of?

Is our long term financial future open for negotiation with our owners? I find it difficult to understand their longer term view as they make statements that can appear contradictory. We're told the club is open for investment/owners would sell under the right circumstances but they've also told us they've decided to pass the club on to their nephew and talked about not wanting to sell to foreigners at previous AGM's. So what is the case?

And finally as fans what is our role in all of this? Is it to accept that fact our owners don't have the cash and be grateful for the money/time/memories they have given us? Do we have the right to question their succession plan? I know many will argue it is their business, they can do what they want and if we don't like it we don't have to go- but to argue that to me misses the fundamental difference between being a fan of a football club and the customer of another type of business. Or is there the possibility that Tom Smith brings much more to the table than we know and his ascension doesn't just mean 30 more years of our current budgetary issues.

I know this is long, rambley and doesn't contain any actual answers but it can be useful to put thoughts down in one place. I'm really not sure where I sit as too much of what I need to know to make up my mind sits in the future. We shall see I guess...

 

30 minutes ago, king canary said:

I know this topic has been done to death and many people are bored of it, but I found myself having several different trains of thought/questions looking through multiple threads and thought I'd put them in one place.

This season and especially our summer window has thrown into sharp relief the limitations a club of our size with our ownership model faces in trying to compete at the very top level.

So what do we already know...

1- We're debt free and in a very solid financial position

2- We have been burned by past experiences and thus have made the decision to exist as a self funding club

3- We spent less than any promoted team in the last 5 years (and possibly further back) on our return to the top division and significantly less than most of those teams.

4- Any wage budget we run in the Premier League really needs to be cut-able down to about £20-25m within two seasons in the Championship or we're in trouble.

This leads me to a few key questions (which I know can't actually be answered but still...)

1- If we stay up is this the sort of budget we can expect to see spent next season too (without player sales)?

2- If we go down we'll theoretically be one of the richest teams in the Championship- will we be able to flex our financial muscles?

3- If we spent an extended spell in the Championship, does our model rely on yearly player sales to balance the books?

Which brings me to my final point/question- what does this mean for our expectation/ambitions?

Do our finance dictate that all we can really expect is the odd season in the Premier League where we try and perform miracles by staying up on a shoestring? I know the idea of an established Premier League club is something of a myth outside of 6 or 7 teams but what else is there to aim for? As fans do we just have to accept that if we're in this division we'll likely be running a significantly lower budget than the other 19 teams? Is there an argument that as a Premier League we should devote more of our efforts to cup competitions? After all if our budget makes survival an extremely tough task, why not have some fun in the cups and create the kind of memories other fans dream of?

Is our long term financial future open for negotiation with our owners? I find it difficult to understand their longer term view as they make statements that can appear contradictory. We're told the club is open for investment/owners would sell under the right circumstances but they've also told us they've decided to pass the club on to their nephew and talked about not wanting to sell to foreigners at previous AGM's. So what is the case?

And finally as fans what is our role in all of this? Is it to accept that fact our owners don't have the cash and be grateful for the money/time/memories they have given us? Do we have the right to question their succession plan? I know many will argue it is their business, they can do what they want and if we don't like it we don't have to go- but to argue that to me misses the fundamental difference between being a fan of a football club and the customer of another type of business. Or is there the possibility that Tom Smith brings much more to the table than we know and his ascension doesn't just mean 30 more years of our current budgetary issues.

I know this is long, rambley and doesn't contain any actual answers but it can be useful to put thoughts down in one place. I'm really not sure where I sit as too much of what I need to know to make up my mind sits in the future. We shall see I guess...

Good piece.......I think though that the Premier league is changing so quickly in terms of finances so Norwich like many others will always flitter between Premier League and Championship. 

The rich are getting richer and we're not in that category and won't be unless things at the top change so have to look at different models to try and compete.

The only thing that will change that will be the introduction of European super league and then the big boys with big back accounts will make that league their toy. 

[A Load of Squit 6,260]

2 hours ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

 

Good piece.......I think though that the Premier league is changing so quickly in terms of finances so Norwich like many others will always flitter between Premier League and Championship. 

 

Ever since my first game in 1970 (apart from 1 season) we've been too good for the 2nd tier and not good enough for the 1st.

On the two main occasions when the club has tried to remain in the top division (Chase with his short term loan policy and the current incumbents when they 'went for it' during the January transfer window) they put the club in financial peril that has taken years to fix.

Being financially wanting isn't a recent phenomenon.

 

[Mr Angry 2,016]

4 hours ago, king canary said:

2- If we go down we'll theoretically be one of the richest teams in the Championship- will we be able to flex our financial muscles?

I’ve never looked this up personally, but apparently our owners are the poorest in the top 2 divisions-so presumably we won’t actually be one of the richest teams in the Championship.

[king canary 8,751]

14 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

I’ve never looked this up personally, but apparently our owners are the poorest in the top 2 divisions-so presumably we won’t actually be one of the richest teams in the Championship.

From a pure revenue standpoint we would likely be- parachute payments, sizeable gates and likely money from player sales.