The Positive Brexit Thread

[Fen Canary 863]

53 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Germany. I nearly went there after the Brexit result (the only thing that stopped me were the tax rules on the self-employed - VAT is charged at a far lower turnover relative to the UK), and since meeting Miss TGS in Germany in 2022 and we're pretty much a year into a LDR now, it makes perfect sense to go there rather than suggest that she comes over here.

Especially as she's just picked up an excellent job in her field (she's a radiologist), and I'm always good in translation provided the Internet's quick. Got another visa appointment a week on Monday, just need to get the insurance and the flights sorted soon and printed out, and that should be everything down for the application.

Just got to dial back my output in that first year to stay below their VAT threshold, but it'll be plain sailing after that. And there's the bonus that I'll earn far more in rent from my place in the UK than I'd be paying over there, and that it wouldn't be subject to income tax in either country as it's not earned in Germany, and below the threshold in the UK.

I wish you all the best. I’ve had some good trips to Germany, and despite their reputation for being a bit sensible and efficient (which they are) I’ve always found them to be a laugh. 

May I ask what is it about Germany (apart from the missus) that makes it an attractive destination for you? You list Brexit as a reason for your leaving and you’ve complained about the economic hit and right wing government you believe it’s caused, but you’ve chosen to move to what’s predicted to be the worst performing major economy this year where high energy prices are causing great harm to its manufacturing sectors and where the genuinely right wing AfD are looking likely to hold the balance of power in the Bundestag.

If economics and politics are your reason for leaving it just seems a curious destination 

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

12 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I wish you all the best. I’ve had some good trips to Germany, and despite their reputation for being a bit sensible and efficient (which they are) I’ve always found them to be a laugh. 

May I ask what is it about Germany (apart from the missus) that makes it an attractive destination for you? You list Brexit as a reason for your leaving and you’ve complained about the economic hit and right wing government you believe it’s caused, but you’ve chosen to move to what’s predicted to be the worst performing major economy this year where high energy prices are causing great harm to its manufacturing sectors and where the genuinely right wing AfD are looking likely to hold the balance of power in the Bundestag.

If economics and politics are your reason for leaving it just seems a curious destination 

Cost of living is still considerably lower, with the only potential problem being the energy prices but at the same time, you're still somewhat protected in property rentals as it tends to be part of the rent and only recalibrated at the end of the rental term. It's a bigger issue in more expensive places such as Munich, or in parts of Eastern Germany where the economy's fragile, so that's large swathes of Saxony, eastern Thüringen, most of Brandenburg, and southern Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. Furthermore, I can rent my place out and earn very well on the rent as a second income stream. As Miss TGS doesn't own her place, her moving over doesn't open this route up.

Central Thüringen, where I am looking at, isn't that badly hit. Now Gera, the largest city in the east of Thüringen, has been in the doldrums for years and the rents are amongst the lowest in Germany. Same can be said of western Saxony too, around Plauen and Chemnitz which isn't too far away from there either. However, it's far better between Erfurt, Weimar, and Jena and that's the region I'm aiming at.

There's always been a stream of right-wing extremism around eastern Germany though. I lived in Guben for a year when out on placement at university. It was infamous for the death of Farid Guendoul escaping a pile of neo-Nazis - that was a shocker, and regular, subsequent desecration of the memorial stone laid down there didn't help matters. Nor did the outcome of the trial afterwards.

Particularly unfortunate was that one of the key perpetrators went back after serving his sentence and took part in local elections as part of the NPD (later became Heimat and have recently just been defunded by the German government in a recent court case as they are seen as being against the constitution of Germany). 

Edited January 26 by TheGunnShow

[Fen Canary 863]

5 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Cost of living is still considerably lower, with the only potential problem being the energy prices but at the same time, you're still somewhat protected in property rentals as it tends to be part of the rent and only recalibrated at the end of the rental term. It's a bigger issue in more expensive places such as Munich, or in parts of Eastern Germany where the economy's fragile, so that's large swathes of Saxony, eastern Thüringen, most of Brandenburg, and southern Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. Furthermore, I can rent my place out and earn very well on the rent as a second income stream. As Miss TGS doesn't own her place, her moving over doesn't open this route up.

Central Thüringen, where I am looking at, isn't that badly hit. Now Gera, the largest city in the east of Thüringen, has been in the doldrums for years and the rents are amongst the lowest in Germany. Same can be said of western Saxony too, around Plauen and Chemnitz which isn't too far away from there either.

There's always been a stream of right-wing extremism around eastern Germany though. I lived in Guben for a year when out on placement at university. It was infamous for the death of Farid Guendoul escaping a pile of neo-Nazis - that was a shocker, and regular, subsequent desecration of the memorial stone laid down there didn't help matters. Nor did the outcome of the trial afterwards.

Particularly unfortunate was that one of the key perpetrators went back after serving his sentence and took part in local elections as part of the NPD (later became Heimat and have recently just been defunded by the German government in a recent court case as they are seen as being against the constitution of Germany). 

Rent and house prices in England are disgusting, I genuinely don’t know how the young do it. To me the amount of money people have to spend on those is the single biggest economic drag on the country as it leaves people with very little to spend on local businesses. I always thought Germany was pricey as well but maybe that’s just in the main cities, like comparing London prices to Norwich I suppose. Would the move still have been financially viable if you didn’t have your own place to rent out while you’re away?

Sorry for being nosey, it just interests me when people have lived abroad. I did it a bit when I was younger in a few spots, but now I’ve got stuck with the missus and kids I have to live vicariously through others moving to pastures new 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

3 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Rent and house prices in England are disgusting, I genuinely don’t know how the young do it. To me the amount of money people have to spend on those is the single biggest economic drag on the country as it leaves people with very little to spend on local businesses. I always thought Germany was pricey as well but maybe that’s just in the main cities, like comparing London prices to Norwich I suppose. Would the move still have been financially viable if you didn’t have your own place to rent out while you’re away?

Sorry for being nosey, it just interests me when people have lived abroad. I did it a bit when I was younger in a few spots, but now I’ve got stuck with the missus and kids I have to live vicariously through others moving to pastures new 

 

Germany's pricey depending on where you are. Most of the major cities are pretty hard work, Munich and Frankfurt am Main in particular, Hamburg can be a bit of both, Stuttgart's often pretty severe too. Most of eastern Germany's pretty cheap on the rental side but often the wages aren't great so amongst the employed there's often still a cost-of-living problem and the same could be said for the self-employed if their clients are all local/regional around there. As I'd be self-employed and basically taking my client base over whilst doing the same thing just with my office in a different place, this won't pose me the same problem.

If I take the place I'm looking at now then it would still work as the rents where I am going are still lower than what I'd be paying here.

[Fen Canary 863]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Germany's pricey depending on where you are. Most of the major cities are pretty hard work, Munich and Frankfurt am Main in particular, Hamburg can be a bit of both, Stuttgart's often pretty severe too. Most of eastern Germany's pretty cheap on the rental side but often the wages aren't great so amongst the employed there's often still a cost-of-living problem and the same could be said for the self-employed if their clients are all local/regional around there. As I'd be self-employed and basically taking my client base over whilst doing the same thing just with my office in a different place, this won't pose me the same problem.

If I take the place I'm looking at now then it would still work as the rents where I am going are still lower than what I'd be paying here.

That’s not too bad then, I suppose that’s the benefit of working from home in that you essentially take your wages with you wherever you are, even if you live somewhere cheaper. Working on site that was never really an option for myself, you were always at the mercy of the local pay rates

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

2 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

That’s not too bad then, I suppose that’s the benefit of working from home in that you essentially take your wages with you wherever you are, even if you live somewhere cheaper. Working on site that was never really an option for myself, you were always at the mercy of the local pay rates

Exactly, and in the medium term the aim will be to go for direct clients alongside agency work, which is considerably more lucrative. I wouldn't be able to pull in a company like Jenapharm or Schott as major players in Jena, but smaller companies that export to the UK or US would be the most likely targets.

[Fen Canary 863]

8 hours ago, horsefly said:

Indeed, "In your eyes". How comforting do you think that is for the thousands of businesses that have lost out because of the insanity of Brexit? I expect a government to be influenced by the best interests of the country, not some utterly false and decrepit notion of sovereignty that has proved to be a complete chimera.

I voted the way I did in the referendum for what I believed would be the best outcome for myself, as did everybody else. I’m sure not a single business that enjoyed the cheap labour from Eastern Europe voted to leave in order to push up wages for those negatively affected by freedom of movement laws after all. Every political transition has winners and losers

[Fen Canary 863]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Exactly, and in the medium term the aim will be to go for direct clients alongside agency work, which is considerably more lucrative. I wouldn't be able to pull in a company like Jenapharm or Schott as major players in Jena, but smaller companies that export to the UK or US would be the most likely targets.

I hope it all works out for you. You’ve timed it nicely with the Euros over there in the summer as well. Who would be the new local club to support? 

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

11 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I hope it all works out for you. You’ve timed it nicely with the Euros over there in the summer as well. Who would be the new local club to support? 

Already been, it would be Carl Zeiss Jena. Just getting their stadium rebuilt - they lost 2-5 to relegation-threatened FSV Zwickau when I was there before Christmas and then the head trainer, Rene Klingbeil, got the sack. Some of the play was reminiscent of Norwich in the early days under Farke, some pretty tap-tap stuff up to the opposition penalty box but then not finding the last ball - all whilst being VERY vulnerable to a counter-attack or set piece. 

There was a bone-headed red card for one of their subs at 1-3 down and with seven minutes of normal time to go, but they pulled one back just before stoppage time anyway. The trainer decided to go for it and threw everything including the kitchen sink, but conceded two goals on the counter in second-half stoppage time. Didn't go down well with the natives.

Zwickau are minor rivals, which didn't help, but if that had been against Rot-Weiss Erfurt then I think it would have kicked right off.

Edited January 26 by TheGunnShow

[Fen Canary 863]

8 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Already been, it would be Carl Zeiss Jena. Just getting their stadium rebuilt - they lost 2-5 to relegation-threatened FSV Zwickau when I was there before Christmas and then the head trainer, Rene Klingbeil, got the sack. Some of the play was reminiscent of Norwich in the early days under Farke, some pretty tap-tap stuff up to the opposition penalty box but then not finding the last ball - all whilst being VERY vulnerable to a counter-attack or set piece. 

There was a bone-headed red card for one of their subs at 1-3 down and with seven minutes of normal time to go, but they pulled one back just before stoppage time anyway. The trainer decided to go for it and threw everything including the kitchen sink, but conceded two goals on the counter in second-half stoppage time. Didn't go down well with the natives.

Zwickau are minor rivals, which didn't help, but if that had been against Rot-Weiss Erfurt then I think it would have kicked right off.

From one underperforming team to another then ha ha. Just need to get your visa sorted (I’ll assume German immigration is as useless and pedantic as all the others I ever dealt with) and you’ll stood on the terraces with a flare and a stein in no time 

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

From one underperforming team to another then ha ha. Just need to get your visa sorted (I’ll assume German immigration is as useless and pedantic as all the others I ever dealt with) and you’ll stood on the terraces with a flare and a stein in no time 

Won't be stood with either of those, but there's always a great chance it'll be a Thüringer Rostbratwurst in a bread roll. Probably with mustard.

Lovely sausage when done right and being in Jena, it won't have travelled far either. Win-win.

[horsefly 4,310]

42 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I voted the way I did in the referendum for what I believed would be the best outcome for myself, as did everybody else. I’m sure not a single business that enjoyed the cheap labour from Eastern Europe voted to leave in order to push up wages for those negatively affected by freedom of movement laws after all. Every political transition has winners and losers

I voted for what I believed would be the best outcome for the entire country, and in particular for the young people who would inherit the outcome of the decision.

[Fen Canary 863]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

I voted for what I believed would be the best outcome for the entire country, and in particular for the young people who would inherit the outcome of the decision.

I don’t believe that importing lots of cheap labour, suppressing wages and pushing up house prices would really benefit the young. Admittedly I hadn’t banked on the Tories using their new found ability to control immigration with simply swapping cheap labour from Eastern Europe with cheap labour from the sub continent 

[horsefly 4,310]

4 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I don’t believe that importing lots of cheap labour, suppressing wages and pushing up house prices would really benefit the young. Admittedly I hadn’t banked on the Tories using their new found ability to control immigration with simply swapping cheap labour from Eastern Europe with cheap labour from the sub continent 

Raising the minimum wage and ensuring it's rigorous implementation was completely within the power of government while we were in the EU. So you voted for massive damage to the prospects of young people in the name of a policy that had nothing to do with EU membership. Well done!

[Fen Canary 863]

5 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Raising the minimum wage and ensuring its rigorous implementation was completely within the power of government while we were in the EU. So you voted for massive damage to the prospects of young people in the name of a policy that had nothing to do with EU membership. Well done!

I’m not a fan of arbitrarily raising the minimum wage as without the relevant rise in productivity it can simply lead to inflation. It also does nothing to relieve the pressure on rents, house prices and public services large scale immigration brings.

Much easier to simply severely limit immigration to only those who are skilled in areas we have skills shortages 

[horsefly 4,310]

3 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I’m not a fan of arbitrarily raising the minimum wage as without the relevant rise in productivity it can simply lead to inflation. It also does nothing to relieve the pressure on rents, house prices and public services large scale immigration brings.

Much easier to simply severely limit immigration to only those who are skilled in areas we have skills shortages 

So you voted for Brexit because you wanted to end low wages, yet you wouldn't vote for a rise in the minimum wage to end low wages. Do feel free to explain how Brexit has ended low wages and led to a rise in productivity. I think the many farmers who left tonnes of crops to rot in their fields would be very keen to avail themselves of your economic wisdom.

[Fen Canary 863]

10 minutes ago, horsefly said:

So you voted for Brexit because you wanted to end low wages, yet you wouldn't vote for a rise in the minimum wage to end low wages. Do feel free to explain how Brexit has ended low wages and led to a rise in productivity. I think the many farmers who left tonnes of crops to rot in their fields would be very keen to avail themselves of your economic wisdom.

You’re arguing against things I’ve never said, which is a fairly standard response for yourself.

I’ve never said I don’t think the minimum wage should rise as I think it’s currently too low, however rising it too quickly can lead to inflation wiping out any gains from it so it’s a balancing act. Importing hundreds of thousands of people annually puts pressure on housing, causing rents and house prices to rise, so continuously raising the minimum wage to combat this is a futile exercise. In my opinion it’s much more sustainable to simply limit immigration in the first place.

I also don’t want an end to immigration, I just want to see it more targeted. I want it to be predominantly high skilled, but I’ve no aversion to short term work visas (as many other countries have) for sectors such as agriculture which aren’t suited to year round employment

[horsefly 4,310]

16 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

You’re arguing against things I’ve never said, which is a fairly standard response for yourself.

I’ve never said I don’t think the minimum wage should rise as I think it’s currently too low, however rising it too quickly can lead to inflation wiping out any gains from it so it’s a balancing act. Importing hundreds of thousands of people annually puts pressure on housing, causing rents and house prices to rise, so continuously raising the minimum wage to combat this is a futile exercise. In my opinion it’s much more sustainable to simply limit immigration in the first place.

I also don’t want an end to immigration, I just want to see it more targeted. I want it to be predominantly high skilled, but I’ve no aversion to short term work visas (as many other countries have) for sectors such as agriculture which aren’t suited to year round employment

All things that were perfectly possible without causing the grotesque economic and social self harm of Brexit.

[Fen Canary 863]

11 minutes ago, horsefly said:

All things that were perfectly possible without causing the grotesque economic and social self harm of Brexit.

Except it wasn’t was it. We’ve been through this, the freedom of movement laws as they stood at the time of the vote meant the national government was largely powerless to prevent EU citizens working and living in Britain 

[Herman 9,819]

9 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Except it wasn’t was it. We’ve been through this, the freedom of movement laws as they stood at the time of the vote meant the national government was largely powerless to prevent EU citizens working and living in Britain 

They weren't FFS. You know they weren't, they didn't want to use the powers that they had because they knew a large pool of workers was to the benefit of the British economy. Instead of them explaining this, they then used FOM to persuade bigots that it was bad for the country and then used it as a big stick to bash the EU with. It sadly turned out the country had far more bigots than we realised.

[Fen Canary 863]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

They weren't FFS. You know they weren't, they didn't want to use the powers that they had because they knew a large pool of workers was to the benefit of the British economy. Instead of them explaining this, they then used FOM to persuade bigots that it was bad for the country and then used it as a big stick to bash the EU with. It sadly turned out the country had far more bigots than we realised.

Right, answer me this. Whilst we were EU members and had to abide by EU freedom of movement laws, could the government refuse EU citizens the right to live and work in Britain? 

[Fen Canary 863]

If the going rate for a chippy was 18 quid an hour, and a company employed a bunch of lads from Bratislava on minimum wage, could the British government refuse their entry while we were members of the EU? 

[Herman 9,819]

".....in order to reside for more than three months in another Member State, EU citizens must have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State."

" ......EU citizens have the right to engage in economic activity in every other Member State under the same conditions as nationals of that Member State."

 

 

[Fen Canary 863]

6 minutes ago, Herman said:

".....in order to reside for more than three months in another Member State, EU citizens must have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State."

" ......EU citizens have the right to engage in economic activity in every other Member State under the same conditions as nationals of that Member State."

 

 

Thanks for answering my question, the British government couldn’t refuse EU citizens the right to live and work in the UK 

[Herman 9,819]

57 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

If the going rate for a chippy was 18 quid an hour, and a company employed a bunch of lads from Bratislava on minimum wage, could the British government refuse their entry while we were members of the EU? 

As to this, it would have come under different, stricter, rules and directives for posted workers.

[Herman 9,819]

20 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Thanks for answering my question, the British government couldn’t refuse EU citizens the right to live and work in the UK 

Yes and no. They could refuse if they didn't have work.

Just to add, I'll post this from 2016. All the appropriate data from the time shows that FOM was a net-benefit to the UK.

"The LSE’s Jonathan Wadsworth said: “The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a “necessary evil” that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/reality-check-are-eu-migrants-really-taking-british-jobs

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

14 minutes ago, Herman said:

Yes and no. They could refuse if they didn't have work.

Just to add, I'll post this from 2016. All the appropriate data from the time shows that FOM was a net-benefit to the UK.

"The LSE’s Jonathan Wadsworth said: “The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a “necessary evil” that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/reality-check-are-eu-migrants-really-taking-british-jobs

You're wasting your time. 

I live in a village of 5,000 people that has a small pharmacy. It no longer opens on a Saturday because they can't get a Pharmacist. The owners have made it clear that this is because of Brexit. The village Facebook group is full of moans from people who voted leave and don't believe the explanation. On a different thread they moan they can't get an appointment to see a GP and claim it's because of immigrants coming here. To my knowledge there are currently 13 non British Europeans living here all of whom are young, fit and healthy (and slim).

They will never get it into their heads that they've got exactly what they voted for. 

[Fen Canary 863]

9 hours ago, Herman said:

Yes and no. They could refuse if they didn't have work.

Just to add, I'll post this from 2016. All the appropriate data from the time shows that FOM was a net-benefit to the UK.

"The LSE’s Jonathan Wadsworth said: “The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a “necessary evil” that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/reality-check-are-eu-migrants-really-taking-british-jobs

EU citizens from the 9 countries that joined after 2004 earned on average 25% below the UK median salary when working in Britain. Are you honestly telling me that had no effect on peoples earning potential?

[Fen Canary 863]

9 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

You're wasting your time. 

I live in a village of 5,000 people that has a small pharmacy. It no longer opens on a Saturday because they can't get a Pharmacist. The owners have made it clear that this is because of Brexit. The village Facebook group is full of moans from people who voted leave and don't believe the explanation. On a different thread they moan they can't get an appointment to see a GP and claim it's because of immigrants coming here. To my knowledge there are currently 13 non British Europeans living here all of whom are young, fit and healthy (and slim).

They will never get it into their heads that they've got exactly what they voted for. 

Why are they saying it’s because of Brexit? Looking at the table below would imply that most pharmacists aren’t from the EU, and a pharmacist could very easily get a work visa/residency for Britain due to their skill level so it does strike me as a weak excuse.

https://www.pharmacyregulation.org/sites/default/files/document/gphc-all-nations-register-diversity-data-may-2022.docx
 

Immigration also doesn’t have to be directly in your areas for services to be affected. Importing a million people means lots more GPs are required throughout the country. Even if those people don’t settle in your area, it may make it difficult to attract GPs to cover the workload as there are now lots more jobs available and those doctors have more choice about where they work.

[Herman 9,819]

One for @TheGunnShow

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/28/afd-first-election-revelations-mass-deportation-meeting-thuringia-protests