Can poetry change society/

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Guenther Grass has once again rattled his tin drum and spoke out, this time over germany''s unquestioned sale of ultra silent Doplphin class subs, providing A nuclear rogue state with ICBM capabilities.here is the translation of his poem.  The debate is about Germany''s new younger generations and their lack of direct guilt, their new understanding of world politics as they see it, as well as the perceived guilt of many towards Israel, who feel that nothing could ever stop germany having to help Israel, a forevetr bond. Far from putting a slant on it, I leave it to you to discuss, this one is already well on the way.http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/05/gunter-grass-german-anger-at-israel

What must be said

Why have I kept silent, held back so long,

on something openly practiced in

war games, at the end of which those of us

who survive will at best be footnotes?

It''s the alleged right to a first strike

that could destroy an Iranian people

subjugated by a loudmouth

and gathered in organized rallies,

because an atom bomb may be being

developed within his arc of power.

Yet why do I hesitate to name

that other land in which

for years—although kept secret—

a growing nuclear power has existed

beyond supervision or verification,

subject to no inspection of any kind?

This general silence on the facts,

before which my own silence has bowed,

seems to me a troubling lie, and compels

me toward a likely punishment

the moment it''s flouted:

the verdict "Anti-semitism" falls easily.

But now that my own country,

brought in time after time

for questioning about its own crimes,

profound and beyond compare,

is said to be the departure point,

(on what is merely business,

though easily declared an act of reparation)

for yet another submarine equipped

to transport nuclear warheads

to Israel, where not a single atom bomb

has yet been proved to exist, with fear alone

the only evidence, I''ll say what must be said.

But why have I kept silent till now?

Because I thought my own origins,

Tarnished by a stain that can never be removed,

meant I could not expect Israel, a land

to which I am, and always will be, attached,

to accept this open declaration of the truth.

Why only now, grown old,

and with what ink remains, do I say:

Israel''s atomic power endangers

an already fragile world peace?

Because what must be said

may be too late tomorrow;

and because—burdend enough as Germans—

we may be providing material for a crime

that is foreseeable, so that our complicity

wil not be expunged by any

of the usual excuses.

And granted: I''ve broken my silence

because I''m sick of the West''s hypocrisy;

and I hope too that many may be freed

from their silence, may demand

that those responsible for the open danger

we face renounce the use of force,

may insist that the governments of

both Iran and Israel allow an international authority

free and open inspection of

the nuclear potential and capability of both.

No other course offers help

to Israelis and Palestinians alike,

to all those living side by side in emnity

in this region occupied by illusions,

and ultimately, to all of us.

--Günter Grass

[Herman 9,793]

Unless a form of poetry is set to music,like the 50''s rockers,the 60''s popstars or the 70''s punks then no.And they didn''t really change society,they just pushed it in a different direction.

It might open a few people''s eyes to a certain situation,but most people are too worried about their own lives to really care what is happening thousands of miles away.

[Larson E Whipsnade 0]

Well , here is a poem by by Wilfred Owen about his experiences of WWI which inspired many anti-war poets and song writers ever after and made people question the whole morality of wars.

 

Dulce et Decorum est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks 
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs 
And towards our distant rest began to trudge. 
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots 
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; 
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots 
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind. 

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling, 
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling 
And flound''ring like a man in fire or lime... 
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light, 
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning. 

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight, 
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning. 

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace 
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, 
His hanging face, like a devil''s sick of sin; 
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood 
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, 
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest 
To children ardent for some desperate glory, 
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

 

 "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" means: "It is sweet and fitting to die for one''s country."

[hexem 0]

Well as Larson may remember I have a fondness for Country Joe and Robert Service.Did the "Fish Cheer at Woodstock" achieve anything other than a stoned hillside.?Pete Seeger, the old commie campaigner set a poem to music. Bombs on Japan.Still they built bigger and better. SS-20s ,Cruise, B52s, Tupolevs. Subs......( not sandwiches).http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yApAg0hl490..............Springsteenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im3oxaQ3Ong.............Seegerhex

[Herman 9,793]

Sadly right hex.The people that should listen or read this poetry,don''t! So long as they and their''s are making a good wedge,then f the rest of us

[hexem 0]

Yes Herman. I was trying to find a sensible anti -war poem from long past days.Not much to equate with WW1 poetry. Art maybe.hex

[Herman 9,793]

Going to have to listen to Bruce a bit more than i do.Gorgeous song[Y]

 

German expressionism for WW1 art.Dark,angry and a bit scary.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Thanks for that larson, as herman says, anti war poetry cited as being the reality of veterans thoughts, has had little impact on those who deal in death and destruction.Guether Grass''s poem already had an effect, he has been banned from entering israel, despite stating that he directed this peome towards Netanyahu present Government, not at Israel perse.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/08/gunter-grass-barred-from-israel

[PurpleCanary 5,569]

[quote user="nevermind"]Thanks for that larson, as herman says, anti war poetry cited as being the reality of veterans thoughts, has had little impact on those who deal in death and destruction.
[/quote]

 

All the anti-war poetry written in  world war one didn''t stop world war two from happening. If anything the law of unintended consequences came into play. The anti-war sentiment that was engendered (in part by literature) created a move towards pacifism and - later on - towards appeasing Germany. Not all the appeasers had bad motives. Some had been through the horror the first time. And they tapped into a public antipathy towards militarism. So there is, sadly, an argument that the poetry of world war one played a part in creating a second, worse horror.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="nevermind"]Thanks for that larson, as herman says, anti war poetry cited as being the reality of veterans thoughts, has had little impact on those who deal in death and destruction.[/quote]

 

All the anti-war poetry written in  world war one didn''t stop world war two from happening. If anything the law of unintended consequences came into play. The anti-war sentiment that was engendered (in part by literature) created a move towards pacifism and - later on - towards appeasing Germany. Not all the appeasers had bad motives. Some had been through the horror the first time. And they tapped into a public antipathy towards militarism. So there is, sadly, an argument that the poetry of world war one played a part in creating a second, worse horror.

[/quote]The same can be said of the noble peace price, apparently, according to prof. Boyce, How could Kissinger and Obama ever got the nod of the Nobel committee? How can Kissinger who planned many nasty excursions ending in bloody events, be even considered. What has NATO got to do with it.? Answers on a postcard.http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=30253

[PurpleCanary 5,569]

[quote user="nevermind"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="nevermind"]Thanks for that larson, as herman says, anti war poetry cited as being the reality of veterans thoughts, has had little impact on those who deal in death and destruction.
[/quote]

 

All the anti-war poetry written in  world war one didn''t stop world war two from happening. If anything the law of unintended consequences came into play. The anti-war sentiment that was engendered (in part by literature) created a move towards pacifism and - later on - towards appeasing Germany. Not all the appeasers had bad motives. Some had been through the horror the first time. And they tapped into a public antipathy towards militarism. So there is, sadly, an argument that the poetry of world war one played a part in creating a second, worse horror.

[/quote]

The same can be said of the noble peace price, apparently, according to prof. Boyce, How could Kissinger and Obama ever got the nod of the Nobel committee? How can Kissinger who planned many nasty excursions ending in bloody events, be even considered. What has NATO got to do with it.? Answers on a postcard.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=30253


[/quote]

 

I don''t know this Professor Boyce, nevermind, but I don''t think the two situations are remotely comparable. I agree about the absurdity of giving Kissinger the Nobel Prize (the very definition of a bad joke) but that hardly made future wars more likely. We would, for example, have had both Gulf wars whether Kissinger has been honoured or not. My point was that the strong anti-war sentiment of the 1920s and 1930s played a part in the appeasement of Hitler, and that appeasement was a factor in him deciding to go to war. He thought he would not be opposed by the west.

 

As to whether poetry can change society, there is an argument that the poetic prose spoken by Martin Luther King helped improve American society. Similarly art in various forms - poetry, painting, cinema, literature - played a strong part in educating white Australians about the plight of the Aboringes, and bringing about change.

[hexem 0]

What a strange world of "What If''s".2 tired men and another.Photographed at Yalta.Churchill was worn out, Roosevelt was dying, and Stalin was given much of the world on a plate.I don''t know if there was much poetry about that meeting. Probably a lot of best Imperial Vodka.I don''t do links or sourcing, but I believe that more people died in USSR dominated countriesthan were killed  in Barbarossa ,both before WW2 and after.Worst insult of all is that a pipsqueak called Boris has a bigger yacht than I do and owns a football club to boot.(Actually I don''t own a yacht)  but I have a very nice picture of a hulk on Blakeney marshes.hex

[PurpleCanary 5,569]

[quote user="hexem"]What a strange world of "What If''s".
2 tired men and another.Photographed at Yalta.

Churchill was worn out, Roosevelt was dying, and Stalin was given much of the world on a plate.
I don''t know if there was much poetry about that meeting. Probably a lot of best Imperial Vodka.
I don''t do links or sourcing, but I believe that more people died in USSR dominated countries
than were killed  in Barbarossa ,both before WW2 and after.

Worst insult of all is that a pipsqueak called Boris has a bigger yacht than I do and owns a football club to boot.
(Actually I don''t own a yacht)  but I have a very nice picture of a hulk on Blakeney marshes.
hex
[/quote]

 

I don''t think a death toll of 20m Soviet citizens counts as having been given something on a plate. And as for "much of the world" the Soviet Union got given a few countries to act a buffer states to stop it being invaded yet again, which had been its fate throughout history.  

[hexem 0]

Well Purple Canary, There are always 2 sides to a fence. Shrimper once posted a .jpeg.I guess the 20 m lost in 1942-45  have to be balanced with the gulags, Stasi, Dershinski Strasse,The cattle trucks to Siberia. All self inflicted. Albania, Tito, Killing fields of Cambodia,Angola, China,Korea, the list is endless. I am not sure that despite a terrible time in WW2. Marx or Leninor comrade Trotsky even, would be proud of their legacy.ce

[hexem 0]

And of course Imperial Russia was involved in the "Great Game".Efforts to dislodge GB from India and gain a warm water port for warships.Plucky Finland was invaded by Russia.Poland tooThe fact that Napoleon invaded Russsia is odd.Most invasions of Europe came from the east.Magyars, Huns, Goths, ...Sounds like Glastonbury....ce

[PurpleCanary 5,569]

[quote user="hexem"]Well Purple Canary, There are always 2 sides to a fence. Shrimper once posted a .jpeg.
I guess the 20 m lost in 1942-45  have to be balanced with the gulags, Stasi, Dershinski Strasse,
The cattle trucks to Siberia. All self inflicted. Albania, Tito, Killing fields of Cambodia,
Angola, China,Korea, the list is endless.
I am not sure that despite a terrible time in WW2. Marx or Lenin
or comrade Trotsky even, would be proud of their legacy.
ce
[/quote]

 

I wouldn''t defend how the Soviet Union turned out, although I think it''s a stretch to blame the Soviet heirs of Marx and Lenin for some of the items on your list. Cambodia? Mao''s murderous regime in China? Albania? All pretty home-grown. And Tito was an anti-Stalinist. But the point I was making stands. Yalta was not some kind of dreadful sell-out. The victors in a war divide up the spoils and that is what happened. In fact Stalin''s demands were perfectly reasonable, especially given the price his country had paid, which far outweighed that of all the other Allies put together. He didn''t, for example, press the case over Greece, when he could have done. As I said, he wanted a little empire of buffer states, and deservedly got it.

[hexem 0]

Ok. I will step back a bit and have another think about poetry.Or maybe read of the "Little World of Don Camillo".hex

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Don''t mind If I don not agree with this all forgiving glossy view, Purple canary,In fact Stalin''s demands were perfectly

reasonable, especially given the price his country had paid, which far

outweighed that of all the other Allies put together.Not that I''ll want to make a point about to much sunshine and too little taxes. But, facts are, that all parties excepted each others warcrimes and carved up Europe as they saw fit, and as already mentioned, without being very fit themselves. Yalta was always going to arrive at a Yugoslavian disarray in future, by design, then nobody was assured of Tito''s immense abilities to hold such disperate countries together in one soviet block. Just as the Olympics favour the country its held in, so Stalin favoured from holding the Conference in Yalta, not in his favourite summer retreat, the Massandra palace, but the better ''prepared'' Lividya palace on the other side of town. Not Churchill, nor Roosevelt made anything of Stalins attrocities, well known then, nor did Stalin mention the 300.000  German POW''s returned from the Russian and estern fronts, who were then held by allied troops in holes in the ground in Flanders and northern France, at starvation rations. They died like flies and the Red Cross knows about it.That said, I''d like to bring this somehow back to Guether Grass poem and today''s malicious international behaviours.It was not a gripe that fell off a tree or out of the sky, he has pointed to a certain self destruct tendency within the Zionist movement and Hajo Meier, in his powerfull critique, only underlines Grass''s message. Israel has to wake up and shake off this yoch of self destruction, or loose itself. Identity and history should not be swiped away and left to a small violent faction that has set itself above all.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSlFR541Uoo&feature=player_embeddedHajo Meier is a concentration camp survivor, and his message very much is in alignment with Sami Jadallah''s new common manifesto for a country with common rights for all.http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/02/22/one-state-vision-a-republic-of-all-of-its-citizens/

[Aggy 757]

Leaving aside my opinions on the historical discussions going on above (of which I may join in later, as I certainly have a few things to add), to closely answer whether poetry can change society, surely the bottom line has got to be how widespread the reading of poetry is nowadays. With the internet and television, not many people - certainly of my generation still in university - read poetry. Modern poetry even less so; most study of poems is of romantic or World War I poetry in schools.

I wouldn''t have heard of this Grass poem unless posted on here, I''m sure most people who haven''t looked at this thread wouldn''t have done either. Poetry is not a media form that is, in itself, going to make much difference to anything anymore. As said above, put it to music, or make a short film, or make your own website about it (think the Kony campaign that exploded a couple of months ago) and yes, possibly it has some potential. Otherwise, poetry in itself is always going to be confined to the discussions of a very few, as on here, and have no impact on wider society anymore.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Aggy, as a student, I presume, you will know what academia can do to each other. The moment Guenther Grass poem was released the criticismn started. Prof Wolffsohn, an education guru in Germany called it an anti semitic pamphlet, whith no explanation given, exactly as Grass forsaw would happen. Now two weeks later, the debate has gone global, its has focussed people''s views on the facts as they exist.Some very powerfull proponents support his stance which is not anti Israel, but against the self defeatismn of hardline zionists, Netanyahu''s Government,and the lack of resolve for peacefull negotiations.So one could say that poetry has the energy and power to change society, but in a newshungry world that changes by the hour, chances are slim that it will carry on the wind for some time and distance to achieve more than energise proptracted debates and positions.This is how the story is developing, after being banned by Bibi, the administartion has realised that they cannot run away from the facts that they are destroying Judaism and its future as an entety that lives in peace with its neighbours. Enjoyhttp://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,827122,00.html

[Aggy 757]

Yes but people don''t influence society unless they have exposure. Anything can influence society if it becomes well known enough. But how many people would have read this poem if it hadn''t been splattered across the news? A lot of the younger generation had never even heard of Kony before a couple of months ago, and I dare say that most people didn''t know the ins and outs of it (nor do they necessarily after the facebook and twitter campaigns that went on). But the point surely is that poetry as a medium to reach people nowadays is outdated. It may reach one or two people, but until it has got the media or social media sites and the like behind it, people aren''t going to notice. Yes, one or two might, but society as a whole isn''t going to.

In saying that, anything, poetry included, can influence society if it is given such a medium. A message has to be spread, and whereas poetry and literature in itself was the main way of spreading that message until relatively recently, now it is waning. Grass'' poem is getting coverage because it was picked up by the media. Had he started a group on facebook with the poem attached as a document or a link perhaps, I dare say millions more people would have been exposed to this in a far shorter time, and its impact upon society would have been far more extensive than it currently is.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

[quote user="Aggy"]Yes but people don''t influence society unless they have exposure. Anything can influence society if it becomes well known enough. But how many people would have read this poem if it hadn''t been splattered across the news? A lot of the younger generation had never even heard of Kony before a couple of months ago, and I dare say that most people didn''t know the ins and outs of it (nor do they necessarily after the facebook and twitter campaigns that went on). But the point surely is that poetry as a medium to reach people nowadays is outdated. It may reach one or two people, but until it has got the media or social media sites and the like behind it, people aren''t going to notice. Yes, one or two might, but society as a whole isn''t going to.

In saying that, anything, poetry included, can influence society if it is given such a medium. A message has to be spread, and whereas poetry and literature in itself was the main way of spreading that message until relatively recently, now it is waning. Grass'' poem is getting coverage because it was picked up by the media. Had he started a group on facebook with the poem attached as a document or a link perhaps, I dare say millions more people would have been exposed to this in a far shorter time, and its impact upon society would have been far more extensive than it currently is.[/quote]Aggy, I have heard  of Kony, but have no desire to watch it, not because I''m obstinate, but because I have known about the Lords resistance army for years. Poetry is outdated you say, it depends, great poets are always quoted, take Omar Kaiyam Rubiyat, an epic, still.The poem of Guenther Grass is on FB, but the medium is controlled, go try liking it. He has gone into hospital for some checks and has not set it up himself. I hear what you are saying regards media saturation and our inability to find the real messages behind all the dross that comes out on the hour every hour, it tends to smother it. Its therefore up to us to find and filter out the serious information from the chaff.the poem has had the desired effect, it has made eople sit up and listen, now that you have the reference I dare you to discuss it seriously with your fellow students, or is that not done anymore?http://www.facebook.com/GunterGrassWhatMustBeSaid

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

here is another not so uninportant, potentially explosive poem, see how you like the relevance of it. Enjoy

Sarah Chalk

Tax his land, Tax his bed, Tax the table At which he''s fed. Tax his work, Tax his pay, He works for peanuts Anyway! Tax his cow, Tax his goat, Tax his pants, Tax his coat. Tax his tobacco, Tax his drink, Tax him if he Tries to think. Tax his car, Tax his gas, Find other ways To tax his ass. Tax all he has Then let him know That you won''t be done Till he has no dough. When he screams and hollers; Then tax him some more, Tax him till He''s good and sore. Then tax his coffin, Tax his grave, Tax the sod in Which he''s laid. When he''s gone, Do not relax, It''s time to apply The inheritance tax. Accounts Receivable Tax Airline surcharge tax Airline Fuel Tax Airport Maintenance Tax Building Permit Tax Cigarette Tax Corporate Income Tax Goods and Services Tax (VAT) Death Tax Driving licence Tax Environmental Taxes Excise Taxes Income Tax Fishing License Tax Food License Tax Petrol Tax (too much per litre) Profit Tax Health Tax Inheritance Tax Interest Tax Heating Tax Lighting Tax Alcohol Tax Luxury Taxes Marriage License Tax Private Medical Insurance Tax Mortgage Tax and his pension Personal Income Tax Property/Council Tax Prescription Tax Land Stamp Duty Tax Road Vehicle Tax Retail Sales Tax (VAT) Service Charge Tax What he buys and what he sells Telephone Tax Vehicle License Registration Tax Vehicle Sales Tax Water Tax Workers Compensation Tax Tax (VAT) on Tax. And Now they want a blooming Carbon Tax! STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY? Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago... & our nation was one of the most prosperous in the world. We had absolutely no national debt, had a large middle class, a huge manufacturing base, and Mum stayed home to raise the kids. What in the Hell happened? Could it be the lying parasitic politicians wasting our money? Oh, and don''t forget the relatively new bank charges. And we all know what we think of Bankers. I hope this goes around the UK at least 1000 times!!! YOU can help it get there!

Politicians ingenuity in finding new taxable areas is in equal

proportion to their inability to use/waste/spend our "stolen" money

wisely and sensibly.

[hexem 0]

My goodness Nevermind. I rarely post these days but you certainly gotmy interest up with your latest poem about taxes. Do we need to be taxed.?The MOD  seems to have made so many failed projects since 1950 costing the taxpayer .The aircraft industry was ruined by multiple trials of secret planes. To Air projects. To get to Mach1My wife was involved with Thurso ,I guess you know where that is.It is astonishing how much tax is wasted on gimmicks. Most of her government planned contracts to IT firms were shelved in the 1980s.Too many of them didn''t work.I didn''t always listen to the grumbles as to what project was being shelved.So I can''t comment.I was just a lad who entertained Richard Burton .hex

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

[quote user="hexem"]My goodness Nevermind. I rarely post these days but you certainly gotmy interest up with your latest poem about taxes. Do we need to be taxed.?The MOD  seems to have made so many failed projects since 1950 costing the taxpayer .The aircraft industry was ruined by multiple trials of secret planes. To Air projects. To get to Mach1My wife was involved with Thurso ,I guess you know where that is.It is astonishing how much tax is wasted on gimmicks. Most of her government planned contracts to IT firms were shelved in the 1980s.Too many of them didn''t work.I didn''t always listen to the grumbles as to what project was being shelved.So I can''t comment.I was just a lad who entertained Richard Burton .hex[/quote]So, hexem taxes get you going, how about his poem about conscript Harry Patch, from Andy Croft? As forn the MOD, they could''nt provide a coffee morning without overspending on the milk, it ''ll be carpeted, just in case some minor fawn showed up.Here they unveiled a stone in his memorial, something he did never agree with,  for him "war was organised murder, nothing else".http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-17973687His funeral was gatecrashed by P. Charles second wife dare I mention that womans name, together with another minor royal. sending others to their death whilst fawning over the bodies of those we have lost, enopugh to put me off my porridge this morning.

- Harry Patch

.

His murder was arranged at Ypres

With half a million other men,

But now he’s dead, the simpering vipers.

Come crawling out from Number 10

To bury him with loud laudation.

And hymns to reconciliation -

The poisonous, forked-tongued response

Of those who tried to kill him once,

Who justify each round of killing.

From Langemarck to Afghanistan,

Then shed a tear for one old man..

It’s hard to say which is more chilling.

These snakes are deaf to what he said.

There’s nothing else. And now he’s dead.

.

~~~~~~

Andy Croft

[hexem 0]

Strange nevermind. I was reading about the funeral of the old survivor not that long ago.Enjoying my toast and marmite. The poem by Andy Croft is worth a thought.But it wasn''t just royals who sent Harry, Nikita, Otto,Pavel, & Jean-Claude off to trenches.When I was at school we had access to newspapers, I vividly remember reading of the lastsurvivor of Gettysburg being given a big send off.hex.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

were would we be without the poets speaking out.Tony Harrison, poet, this morning on R4.

Baghdad Lullaby

.

Ssshhh! Ssshhhh! though now shrapnel makes you shriek

and deformities in future may brand you as a freak,

.

you’ll see, one day, disablement ‘s a blessing and a boon

.

sent in baby-seeking bomblets by benefactor Hoon.

.

(In response to Hoon saying on Radio 4′s Today programme [last week]

that Iraqi mothers would thank him for using cluster bombs.)

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

A very good contribution from Benjamin Zephaniah on multiculturalism. Those who say that it has nothing to do with racism are evading the argument, he says.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/video/2012/oct/01/benjamin-zephaniah-poetry-videolets see how many bus loads of EDL/Anders BNreivig supporters can be shuttled in for the big Norwich shout off next month.Surprised that the police has not told them to leave it out, they are hard pressed as they have raided their pension funds to try and do the policing it seems, were else would the 1.3 billion pension hole come from. best to ask ex conservative Stephen Bett were the money has gone.

[Joanna Grey 0]

Nothing wrong with multiculturalism (or diversity, or whatever) if it improves or adds benefit to the indigenous population. Unfortunately recent immigrants, on the whole, either make no difference whatsoever or have a negative affect on society.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

[quote user="Joanna Grey"]Nothing wrong with multiculturalism (or diversity, or whatever) if it improves or adds benefit to the indigenous population. Unfortunately recent immigrants, on the whole, either make no difference whatsoever or have a negative affect on society.[/quote]Please explain JG, what benefits do you expect from immigrants apart from their taxes?Do you think Universities should be allowed to recruit students from overseas, China Japan and Indonesia? why should some Universities be allowed to recruit students whilst others are not?Another point, what do you mean by recent? How many years does one have to be here in your book before one is part of society? Or is it down to a test of sorts, cause I did not take one.