The Great Mass Debater

This took a fair bit of Googling to get. But I got there. Eventually...

I do think a lot of that comes from the Farke decision however. Though Im not an attending fan, this is very much my mindset. Smith's bar is the one that Farke set, because many fans still feel knifing Farke in order to 'upgrade' with Smith was a bad decision. Smith hasnt got a free hit, he is still having to prove he is better than Farke. He has a lot to prove to fans, and so far he hasnt proved to have a better outcome in the Premier League than Farke and he has a hell of an ask to out-do Farke at Championship level. I think a lot of fans are still p*ssed off at the Farke decision and are judging each game against what we threw away by sacking him. Id be amazed if this is not part of the psyche.

See this is what I find interesting and circular about this discussion. One second Im being lambasted for having no ambition. But when I assert that our ambition SHOULD be to be a competitor in the Premier League but as we cannot hope to be without a change in ownership I dont welcome promotion I'm countered with the above. Of course we have no divine right to be in the Premier League. But surely that should be the ambition of every club (ultimately) in the football league. As a club we need to do what it takes to be able to become an established PL club, but we arent willing to do that. And Im afraid this comes down to the owners. Not that they are poor, but that they will not allow the club to grow by relinquishing control. Attanasio is a massive leap forward in that respect. I expect that as Delia and Michael age, he will become the realistic option for succession. As he gains their confidence more and more and acquires more and more shares there will ultimately be a transition in power and Delia and Michael are likely to relinquish control to him as he continues to convince them that his vision for the club is compatible with their own. I just see us as being totally unable to compete in the Premier League at present, so see the idea of us chasing after it as pointless. Our ultimate ambition however should always be to be a Premier League club, so as a club we need to address what is holding us back at present, and that I am afraid is the ownership model. I have never been a Delia Out type, I have come to this conclusion in the last calendar year. The writing is on the wall for me that we have come as far as we can with the status quo. And if this is the 'best' it gets, then it sucks and Id rather just see us play games at our level until that changes. But I DO want change so we can move forward. Im advocating championship football so our seasons arent miserable until that does change.

Not quite sure how you can make that assertion when I have consistently said right now I dont welcome Premier League football and think it is essentially broken. If it's broken why cant we fix it for the good of all fans, who are the real currency of the game? Because it's all about money, that's why. When it should be about the fans. Without fans football is meaningless

Im very much a systems thinker. Im a GP and Im very frustrated in my job because I can see how the system doesnt work for patients (or Doctors) and it drives me crazy that we as a country cant make this better. I think a number of Doctors are able to just get on with the day job, but when I see that most of my daily frustrations are a product of the system I work in, I cant just accept that and say 'it is what it is' it actively frustrates me. It's why I left hospital medicine as I was just coming home furious every day. It's slightly more bearable as a GP but I still cut a frustrated figure as if I see a system that doesnt work I want to make it better. Im probably in the wrong job, I think I think like an engineer. So similiary I see a system I think doesnt work, I will critique it from a non-partisan perspective. Regardless of my own loyalties

People are all different and probably the match day experience influences how you enjoy football. I've never been a regular attender of games, if geography allowed for it then it's something I would love to be part of my life. My brother in-law is a Man Utd season ticket holder and drives over 2 hours there and 2 hours back to watch them play. I have 4 little kids and could never justify that amount of time for football. Since the availability of online streams I have been able to watch almost all the games without it impacting family life, but of course that is a very different thing to actually going to games week in week out and sharing that with friends. For me the Premier League used to mean I could watch matches, whereas the championship used to mean I couldnt. But I have a jailbroken Firestick now which means I can pretty much watch all games if I want, even championship. I think if you go to games you very much live in the now. You have mentioned your own mortality numerous times, and if you have supported City for 50 odd years Im deducing you are at least 70. So I can understand and accept why we have different viewpoints. Its all the rich tapestry of life innit?

We are kind of abusing the parachute system. We're entitled to do so, but it's not in the spirit of what it is intended for. I remember (perhaps incorrectly, but if incorrect the general point still stands) when Middlesbrough went down and still had Ravanelli etc on huge wages. Other clubs that couldnt get shot of big wage players because noone else would pay those wages and the players wouldnt leave if it meant a paycut. Parachute payments are supposed to be insulation against that kind of drastic change in finances so clubs dont go to the wall. We dont generally do that, relegation isnt the financial catastrophe it can be for established clubs or sh*t or bust newly promoted sides. We have a much more sensible model, but nevertheless we are gaming the system. Nothing wrong with that but I can see why other clubs see it as a cynical money grab. Perhaps there needs to be a better system where parachute payments are means-tested or something, so that they fulfil their intended role rather than simply being a source of income for a club like ours resulting in a 'Championship big 6'

Definitely think there is something in that. Yoyo clubs exist because the parachute payments give relegated clubs an unfair advantage. At the risk of sounding arrogant and entitled, we're in a position now where we'll never be good enough for the Premier League but too strong for most of the Championship, meaning that essentially clubs like us block the others. Another sad development of the PL system

Indeed. It pretty much summed it up more succintly than my waffle

Anglo-Italian Cup anyone?

My hometown club Burton Albion are a classic example of how the FA Cup can be transformative for a small club. Ben Robinson the chairman used to be my Dad's home insurance broker. When I was growing up, Derby County were a Premier League/Championship yoyo club, and Burton were in the Beazer Homes 2nd division, which was something like the 9th tier or English football. Im not quite sure what division they were in when they drew Man Utd in the early 2000s, but they were definitely non-League. They managed to hold them to a 0-0 draw at Burton (they were sponsored by The Sun for that one game) and earned a replay at Old Trafford. Burton took what I think is still the largest ever away following at Old Trafford and the club made an estimated £3-5m from that one game alone. That money was transformative, and not long ago Burton Albion played Derby in the Championship, a prospect that would have been thoroughly laughed at when I was at school. Though I dont follow Burton, I generally consider their rise to eventual championship status as being solely down to that game. That's what it can mean to clubs lower down the pyramid. But who cares about them right?

You've got to love what the Pinkun's auto-censor has bleeped out here...

It wouldnt generate the money that the current version of the Premier League does though. And that's what it's all about. You know how they say governments dont have any money, they only spend your money? Well it's the same for football. When Ronaldo earns £500,000 per game, and Neymar moves for £190m, ultimately that cost goes back to the ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶u̶m̶e̶r̶ fans Thats why we see this: https://www.nationalworld.com/sport/football/premier-league-most-expensive-replica-football-shirts-revealed-every-club-puts-prices-up-above-inflation-3802223

I disagree. It's about recognising that unless something changes we are doomed for more of the same and the Prem seasons werent any fun at all. We achieved nothing, actually got worse and the football world mocked us, or rather attacked us for a cynical grab for Premier League money without making a serious attempt to stay up. That is not enjoyable. With a reason to believe things might be different Id happily cheer the club on. At the moment I ask, 'What am I cheering them on to?' Slaughter? I have reached the conclusion that without significant investment we have reached our ceiling, the reward of which is half of our seasons being miserable and the other half seeming meaningless. It's recognising the inability to perform and yearning for that to change at Premier League level (which means a change in ownership Im sorry to say) or for us to play at an appropriate level - which is championship.

As someone who doesnt attend games very often I have no perspective on this and I fully appreciate where you come from on that one

I feel you're being a bit concrete in your thinking Nutty. It doesnt have to go as far down the thought chain as actively wanting your side to lose. And can I explore that one a bit? Wouldnt you actually get bored pretty quickly if Norwich won every game? Isnt the possibility of defeat and the challenge of overcoming that what gives the game meaning? I dont believe for one second that you are so basic that you'd happily clap every Norwich win if it meant nothing. Think about when we played Paulton and won 7-0. Did you lose your sh*t every time we scored? Of course not, because it wasnt a huge challenge. So thinking in pure philosophical form, you'd never wish for Norwich to never lose again would you? Wouldnt that make the games devoid of meaning? Oh great, we won again! Im talking philosophically about what it is that stokes the fires as a fan, and how that is lacking at present and is more nuanced than simply winning games. The Lambert and Farke promotions were exciting because they were outrageous and the football was great to watch. We did nothing of note in the Prem because we were hopelessly outclassed and I dont see that changing without money, such is the nature of the Premier League beast. Perhaps there is apathy because yoyoing has become a bit boring, a bit samey. Here we are again, going back and forwards more repeatedly than Bez

Because I have supported Norwich for 30 years. And for most of them, getting to the Premier League has meant everything. For the first time as a fan I find myself no longer feeling that. We are second in the league having just come off a 6 game winning streak. Yet there are murmurs of discontent, with boos at West Brom (though Im not sure who they came from or why). Ordinarily the place would be buzzing, but there is a lot of negativity, which seems insane given results. So there must be more to it and Im simply exploring my own feelings as a fan of the club and football in general. Im not sure why me or others doing that upsets you so much. Being a supporter is not a competition. For the first time in my life as a Norwich fan getting to the Premier League is not something I yearn for, and Im clearly not the only one. You can choose to view this exploration through a tribal prism and as an attack on the club if you wish, but you'll only end up raising your blood pressure. Something that meant a lot to me has changed and I want to discuss that with others who may be feeling the same way. I dont understand why that makes you angry?

Farke apparently wanted a loan deal, but with us having rejected a loan deal from Barcelona whilst he was manager here Im surprised if he thought he'd get anywhere with that. Max was previously linked with hosts of big clubs, but yet again no serious bids seem to have materialised. Have there been bids but well below the asking price, or is there simply no interest. I feel sorry for him, cant help but feel like he might have missed the boat (one he might not have missed if his atitude were worse). Feel sorry for him that his behaviour has been exemplary yet he hasnt had that rewarded.

Webber when he gets to the top...

Surely thats a list of players Farke ruined? Dont forget Gilmour, who Farke had the audacity to drop, Oliveira and mini-Messi Marcus Edwards

Keeping my eye on that Gladbach account myself

Understandable how that oversight can happen, but Juve were right and noone listened. Id be incensed too

Help me understand how you have any enthusiasm for another Premier League season? What allows you to believe it wont simply be a repeat of the last 2? Thats where we differ - in that I am totally disillusioned with the prosepct of another Premier League campaign under the same set of circumstances. I think very few of our players are Premier League standard, meaning we would need heavy investment on going up - which we wont get. If we put in a season where we gave teams a game, gave opponents a bloody nose the way Lambert's team did then Id be all for another season. But Farke's teams didnt do that, Smith had three quarters of the season and couldnt get a tune out of them and by all accounts despite results fan feel like it's not happening on the pitch. I see another Premier League season simply resulting in limp performances, futile games and inevitable relegation. I have no belief that Smith is a manager that can change that dynamic. I have nothing to believe in at present. The players arent good enough to stay in the PL should we get promoted. We arent going to get the players we need to compete. Therefore what is the point? It all seems meaningless. It is a criticism of the Premier League, rather than the club, because what they have created is something a team without finance cannot hope to compete in. Leicester aside (and Im sorry but Leicester winning the league, bemoaned by football snobs, is possibly the greatest thing that ever happened in the Premier League), the top 6 are on a different planet to the other 14 clubs. A lot of those clubs may also find themselves in an existential crisis, asking, if we cant win the league, if we cant qualify for Europe, what the hell is there actually to play for? Other than not getting relegated? Remember the inaugural PL season? Norwich leading for most of it, coming close to actually winning it? Qualifying for Europe and playing Bayern Munich and Inter Milan? Could that ever happen again for a club like ours? No, not without serious money. And that's why it's sh*t. The championship historically has been a far more competitive league, resulting in more evenly matched games of football. Actual contests. Though I certainly hear what some fans have been saying about the standard in the Championship in recent years. The question is about football rather than our club. What would you rather take in each week? Footballing contests between evenly matched teams, or essentially watching a cat torture a poor mouse for 90 minutes each week?

Great post

A number of players may see their route to the Premier League as being through a transfer however. The likes of Cantwell not too many moons ago may well be thinking 'I should be in the Premier League' (even though few of them showed any signs of that). Aarons and Pukki would certainly have takers. Hanley and Krul could also find a place in someone's squad